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LuxuryStones
@ Mathijs: What makes you think it's Keith on the basic track, I'm not saying it isn't, but it could have been Taylor, judging the playing?

The outtakes, circulating and uncirculating, clearly reveal that they did quite some overdubbing: a 6-string acoustic and a 12-string acoustic. Do you have a link? The subject keeps fascinating me.

Well, in my opinion it just doesn't sound like anything Taylor has ever played before or after, and it sounds very much like other rhytm parts Richards has done over the years. Also, on the 1981 live versions Richards stays quite close to the original part.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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LuxuryStones
@ Mathijs: What makes you think it's Keith on the basic track, I'm not saying it isn't, but it could have been Taylor, judging the playing?

The outtakes, circulating and uncirculating, clearly reveal that they did quite some overdubbing: a 6-string acoustic and a 12-string acoustic. Do you have a link? The subject keeps fascinating me.

Well, in my opinion it just doesn't sound like anything Taylor has ever played before or after, and it sounds very much like other rhytm parts Richards has done over the years. Also, on the 1981 live versions Richards stays quite close to the original part.

Mathijs

That's at least an opinion. Funny how people hear what they want to hear. The loose strumming reminds me more of Taylor than Richards. Actually it sounds almost completely neutral to me, or even like Jagger on "Winter". Hence my curiosity.

There are details in there if you listen more closely...

Yes, I did that years ago already. I get your point, but those details are also in a song like "Baby I want You" MT 1979. Taylor also can strum and play arpeggio's and add fills.. Our mutual WAOF arguments are a bit superfluous by now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-07 23:06 by LuxuryStones.

Of course he can, only differently, imo. But the stops on single strings in WOAF is something that isn't typical of Taylor.

Taylor plays quite similar single string stops on Dead Flowers, Marquee club and other tracks.
The musical difference between Mick and Keih is too small for this WAOF score to judge imo.Both players have the tools to play it like that.
Would love to see a picture of the Master tape, the guitar track, and the name of the player. I'm afraid no one else here has an opinion or gives a shit (apart from Mathijs) and there's just no evidence. Enough about this subject, I have to work again tomorrow.

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LuxuryStones
Taylor plays quite similar single string stops on Dead Flowers, Marquee club and other tracks.
The musical difference between Mick and Keih is too small for this WAOF score to judge imo.Both players have the tools to play it like that.
Would love to see a picture of the Master tape, the guitar track, and the name of the player. I'm afraid no one else here has an opinion or gives a shit (apart from Mathijs) and there's just no evidence. Enough about this subject, I have to work again tomorrow.

He's more fluent, and his stops are never abrupt in the middle of his phrasing, like Keith's. That's what gives Keith away here, imo.

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LuxuryStones

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DandelionPowderman


So, most likely, there never was a Taylor contribution on WOAF?

If Taylor made such a hassle about his contribution, that would imply he's actually lying. Is there proof that it is Keith playing the guitar on WOAF? I know a good guitarist who played with Mick, knows and analyzed his playing very well, and he suspects that it is actually Taylor playing the guitar on WOAF. I share his opinions to a certain extend.

That wouldn't imply that he's lying. They cut the track for GHS and he heard it so he was probably pissed. More so for Tops since he's on that track.

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GasLightStreet
That wouldn't imply that he's lying. They cut the track for GHS and he heard it so he was probably pissed. More so for Tops since he's on that track.

So MT is not on WAOF ?

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LuxuryStones

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GasLightStreet
That wouldn't imply that he's lying. They cut the track for GHS and he heard it so he was probably pissed. More so for Tops since he's on that track.

So MT is not on WAOF ?

Correct.

Ok, but how do you know may I ask ?

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet
Charlie said "On 'Waiting On A Friend' he went into that Santana style of playing. It was incredible, and it really worked."

I've mentioned this before here wondering WTF he's talking about because there's no kind of playing like that on the LP version. So it must be that he was on it playing leads back in 1972 if Charlie said that. Charlie doesn't say A LOT about their songs but it seems that was one that he remembers.

He meant Time Waits For No One or CYHMK, surely.

That's what I don't get. He was specific about the 'cha-cha-cha' guitar on Waiting On A Friend, of which there is not. So either he has a tape of it with Taylor playing on it or he can remember or he is confusing it with CYHMK, which also doesn't have cha-cha-cha guitar in it.

Either way, everything seemingly points to Taylor not being on the finished version of WOAF but he was part of the original recording from what it seems like regardless of no proof via bootleg. It caught his ear when he heard it. And seeing that they used another GHS track that he is on, well, that must'a really pissed him off!

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet
Charlie said "On 'Waiting On A Friend' he went into that Santana style of playing. It was incredible, and it really worked."

I've mentioned this before here wondering WTF he's talking about because there's no kind of playing like that on the LP version. So it must be that he was on it playing leads back in 1972 if Charlie said that. Charlie doesn't say A LOT about their songs but it seems that was one that he remembers.

He meant Time Waits For No One or CYHMK, surely.

That's what I don't get. He was specific about the 'cha-cha-cha' guitar on Waiting On A Friend, of which there is not. So either he has a tape of it with Taylor playing on it or he can remember or he is confusing it with CYHMK, which also doesn't have cha-cha-cha guitar in it.

Either way, everything seemingly points to Taylor not being on the finished version of WOAF but he was part of the original recording from what it seems like regardless of no proof via bootleg. It caught his ear when he heard it. And seeing that they used another GHS track that he is on, well, that must'a really pissed him off!

Everything of this sounds plausible to me.

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LuxuryStones
Ok, but how do you know may I ask ?

Isn't it obvious? Clearly having Sonny Rollins play on it is a clear indication. If he did mimic what Taylor did it sounds a gazillion times better than any guitar would. Also - do YOU hear Taylor on it? Because I do not. And nothing anywhere that I've ever read, in print on paper or on a screen, says for sure that Taylor is on the LP version. The guitar is clearly obviously Keith.

And it's the kind of thing Jagger would do back then, clearing Taylor from the recording. He's that way. Wiping Jeff Beck's solo off from a solo recording... and then not understanding (maybe? not sure how else to put it - perhaps assuming it was some kind of secret code that when one said 'wipe that' it meant 'keep it') that the engineer was not a Stones engineer and actually wiped the solo. Look at the cover of Rarities - you know he was behind the removal of Wyman from that cover.

Perhaps what pissed Taylor off is he heard it, heard Rollins' playing, and didn't hear his playing. Which could mean that he wrote it with Jagger but certainly he was part of the original recording.

Then again, I'm not sure I've ever read Taylor stating that he was talking specifically about WOAF. Because he's on Tops and that's clear. Maybe Taylor wasn't on the original recording. Maybe that YouTube outtake or whatever, that seemingly doesn't have Taylor on it, is the original track (master take) that they finished up in 1981.

21 years later, Taylor claimed he played on WOAF. He didn't say what he contributed to it, though.

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DandelionPowderman
21 years later, Taylor claimed he played on WOAF. He didn't say what he contributed to it, though.

That's the thing. David Bowie sang on IORR... so the context of it is what matters. I'm sure Taylor did play on WOAF. And maybe he indeed played on the master take. But he sure ain't there in the mix! So therefor, I guess, technically, Mick Taylor is not "on" WOAF.

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman
21 years later, Taylor claimed he played on WOAF. He didn't say what he contributed to it, though.

That's the thing. David Bowie sang on IORR... so the context of it is what matters. I'm sure Taylor did play on WOAF. And maybe he indeed played on the master take. But he sure ain't there in the mix! So therefor, I guess, technically, Mick Taylor is not "on" WOAF.

That's how I see it, too.

I've wondered over the years why Clearmountain kept all the cymbals out of the mix on Neighbours until the end of the song.

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GasLightStreet

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LuxuryStones
Ok, but how do you know may I ask ?

Isn't it obvious? Clearly having Sonny Rollins play on it is a clear indication. If he did mimic what Taylor did it sounds a gazillion times better than any guitar would. Also - do YOU hear Taylor on it? Because I do not. And nothing anywhere that I've ever read, in print on paper or on a screen, says for sure that Taylor is on the LP version. The guitar is clearly obviously Keith.

And it's the kind of thing Jagger would do back then, clearing Taylor from the recording. He's that way. Wiping Jeff Beck's solo off from a solo recording... and then not understanding (maybe? not sure how else to put it - perhaps assuming it was some kind of secret code that when one said 'wipe that' it meant 'keep it') that the engineer was not a Stones engineer and actually wiped the solo. Look at the cover of Rarities - you know he was behind the removal of Wyman from that cover.

Perhaps what pissed Taylor off is he heard it, heard Rollins' playing, and didn't hear his playing. Which could mean that he wrote it with Jagger but certainly he was part of the original recording.

Then again, I'm not sure I've ever read Taylor stating that he was talking specifically about WOAF. Because he's on Tops and that's clear. Maybe Taylor wasn't on the original recording. Maybe that YouTube outtake or whatever, that seemingly doesn't have Taylor on it, is the original track (master take) that they finished up in 1981.

No, it isn't obvious to me, otherwise I wouldn't bring up the subject.

Sonny Rollins doesn't need Taylor to tell him what to play, although I recognize Taylorish lines in Rollins' solo.

I didn't say it isn't Keith playing the guitar, but yes, I also hear Taylor in it cause it's a rather basic and relaxed strumming.

As for the stories about Jagger's wiping tracks strategie, I don't know, Jagger has a good appetite for guitarists, so that's only speculation.

I have never heard an outtake with more than one guitar, if you have one, please post it although that wouldn't prove anything about who played the rhythm guitar.

I am sure I read in Dutch papers -not the local ones- that Taylor was talking about WAOF, 1981. I was 21 at the time.

So I'm sorry, you don't convince me unless you heard some valid info from Taylor himself, but thanks for your extended reply.

Well that's fine that I didn't convince you, I don't know if I was attempting to convince you but regardless you can continue to believe he's on a track he's not on.

No one ever said Sonny Rollins needed Taylor to tell him what to play. I don't know where you get that from. The speculation is he heard/listened to Taylor's playing and mimicked it yet publications state that Jagger danced the playing for him so he played what he felt. Those are two incredibly opposite things with the latter one being the most realistic since Rollins said it.

It's been noted that Mick wiped a Jeff Beck solo, it's not speculation, it's fact.

Here's some outtakes with two guitars in it...

Some very interesting WOAF-versions there, Skippy

Oh, did he mean WOAF outtakes!!?? I thought he meant in general!!!!! Because I started to think, wot? That's crazy. There do seem to be quite a few with just one guitar in them, which is what I thought Luxury was getting at.

The WOAF outtake indeed has one guitar in it only from what I hear. Is that the only outtake? Then again, I guess there aren't very many multiple outtakes ie different takes/versions out there.

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GasLightStreet
The WOAF outtake indeed has one guitar in it only from what I hear. Is that the only outtake? Then again, I guess there aren't very many multiple outtakes ie different takes/versions out there.

So you cannot answer my question either.

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LuxuryStones

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GasLightStreet
The WOAF outtake indeed has one guitar in it only from what I hear. Is that the only outtake? Then again, I guess there aren't very many multiple outtakes ie different takes/versions out there.

So you cannot answer my question either.

Here you go: Mick Taylor is not on that original bottoms recording of WOAF because that's Keith playing the guitar.

If you only judge it by ear then your guess is as good as mine.

Taylor being pissed cause they choose the version with Sonny Rollins? Seems unlikely to me - Taylor most likely would have sent a postcard to Sonny: "Great job, man".

Remains the rhythm guitar.

It's not even close, that's Taylor on the original track. Sounds straight off the Leather Jacket/Separately rhythm mode.

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LuxuryStones
If you only judge it by ear then your guess is as good as mine.

Taylor being pissed cause they choose the version with Sonny Rollins? Seems unlikely to me - Taylor most likely would have sent a postcard to Sonny: "Great job, man".

Remains the rhythm guitar.

So you think it's Taylor on guitar. And that's it. No Keith.

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GasLightStreet

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LuxuryStones
If you only judge it by ear then your guess is as good as mine.

Taylor being pissed cause they choose the version with Sonny Rollins? Seems unlikely to me - Taylor most likely would have sent a postcard to Sonny: "Great job, man".

Remains the rhythm guitar.

So you think it's Taylor on guitar. And that's it. No Keith.

I don't know, I never said it's not Keith. Not necessarily Keith, not necessarily Taylor. All the other stories, Sonny Rollins, Taylor being pissed, assuming it must be Keith bring us nowhere. I do hear shades of Taylor in it though. The strumming is very basic, that's the point. Would be great if more guitarists participate here.

None of us were there.