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Erik_Snow

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Erik_Snow

For a starter, Laugh I Nearly Died is NOT sentimental but cynical

..cynical and self-obsessed, that is

Erik, every single word is about how hurt he is. Every single vocal inflection
is about how hurt he is. "Hurt" is probably the most common sentiment
expressed in the ballad form.

If you also detect some underlying anger (what you calling cynicism), that fits
too. Thats what comes next in the stages of grief. That's what's always bubbling
under when you've been hurt.

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superrevvy

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Erik_Snow

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Erik_Snow

For a starter, Laugh I Nearly Died is NOT sentimental but cynical

..cynical and self-obsessed, that is

Erik, every single word is about how hurt he is. Every single vocal inflection
is about how hurt he is. "Hurt" is probably the most common sentiment
expressed in the ballad form.

If you also detect some underlying anger (what you calling cynicism), that fits
too. Thats what comes next in the stages of grief. That's what's always bubbling
under when you've been hurt.

Sorry but I don't agree with you there, superrevy

Just because the singer has been "hurt" in the past doesn't make the song "sentimental" at all, IMO

And even the melody on Laugh I Nearly Died, nevermind the vocals, is not sentimental or close to a ballad; apart from the fact that it is a "slow song"

The same way I don't think, for instance, "Love Sick" by Dylan is a ballad



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-22 15:28 by Erik_Snow.

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Erik_Snow
The best ballads for the last 23 years are all sung by Keith, IMO. My favourite "ballad" which Jagger is singing on, would actually be Sweethearts Together, a song which isn't too popular on this forum for some reason. Almost Hear You Sigh is also good, but it has faded for me too. I can't think of any other ballad after 1981 which Jagger sings that I actually like.

Yeah, I forget that one (I always tend to do that since VOODOO LOUNGE is such a long and faceless collecion of songs.) That little song with that cajun-touch and all, has its charm, mostly to do with the Mick/Keith melodrama - and what can be fascinating than 50 years old men singing together "Sweethearts Together" - but to my ears it has teh typical VOODOO LOUNGE syndroma: it leaves a nice impression from the first listening - or to be heard once in a decade - but it can't stand repeated listenings, and starts to get annoying very quickly. VOODOO LOUNGE have lots of that in it. It simply is the most 'arse-licking" and simple-minded album the Stones have ever done. In almost every song they seem to try to find the easiest ear-pleasing impression by the least effort. Even STEEL WHEELS sounds an ambitious effort compared to it.

- Doxa

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Doxa
[...]the typical VOODOO LOUNGE syndroma: it leaves a nice impression from the first listening - or to be heard once in a decade - but it can't stand repeated listenings[...]

Hey, maybe that's the exact reason I still like it ! 5-6 years since the last time I listened. Think I'll wait another 4 years for the next spin then



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-22 15:48 by Erik_Snow.

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Erik_Snow
And even the melody on Laugh I Nearly Died, nevermind the vocals, is not sentimental or close to a ballad; apart from the fact that it is a "slow song"

The same way I don't think, for instance, "Love Sick" by Dylan is a ballad

I think you have a point there. The category of "ballad" is a bit fuzzy one, and can be easily interpreted as a slow song. But for example, if we take the dark sounds and delivery out of "Sway" it is rather slow song, and, for example, musicwise its chorus is not that different from that of "Out of Tears". But now no one of us thinks about "Sway" as a ballad. But it has a really beautiful, naturally flowing melody in it that could be interpreted way differenly than how the Stones did it in STICKY FINGERS. There is a potentiality for a great ballad ther, too.

- Doxa

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superrevvy
If you also detect some underlying anger (what you calling cynicism), that fits
too. Thats what comes next in the stages of grief. That's what's always bubbling
under when you've been hurt.

BTW, all different stages of "grief" can't be catogorized under the "love" or "ballad" category, like the "cynical and selfcentered stage of grief" Jagger is pretending to be under in Laugh I Nearly Died. If so, then one could call for example a song about "disillusion" or another stage....the "going on with ones life and see a new morning"-stage-of-grief, a ballad. And that's not the case. Nearly all aspects of life deals with grief and hope, but a ballad has to focus on something sharper than that, to be called a ballad

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Doxa

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Erik_Snow
And even the melody on Laugh I Nearly Died, nevermind the vocals, is not sentimental or close to a ballad; apart from the fact that it is a "slow song"

The same way I don't think, for instance, "Love Sick" by Dylan is a ballad

I think you have a point there. The category of "ballad" is a bit fuzzy one, and can be easily interpreted as a slow song. But for example, if we take the dark sounds and delivery out of "Sway" it is rather slow song, and, for example, musicwise its chorus is not that different from that of "Out of Tears". But now no one of us thinks about "Sway" as a ballad. But it has a really beautiful, naturally flowing melody in it that could be interpreted way differenly than how the Stones did it in STICKY FINGERS. There is a potentiality for a great ballad ther, too.

- Doxa

"Sway" is a bit difficult to put into a musical category, I agree, as none really match. I would call it a "dragging rocker", myself

so the question is then, "if not a ballad, what is Laugh?"

i just checked and there's a few reviewers who call it a "soul ballad" or
"soulful ballad" and i think that's right on.

which is the same description that is used for "when a man loves a woman".

which i think is a very good touchstone for what category Laugh belongs to.

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Erik_Snow

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superrevvy
If you also detect some underlying anger (what you calling cynicism), that fits
too. Thats what comes next in the stages of grief. That's what's always bubbling
under when you've been hurt.

BTW, all different stages of "grief" can't be catogorized under the "love" or "ballad" category, like the "cynical and selfcentered stage of grief" Jagger is pretending to be under in Laugh I Nearly Died. If so, then one could call for example a song about "disillusion" or another stage....the "going on with ones life and see a new morning"-stage-of-grief, a ballad. And that's not the case. Nearly all aspects of life deals with grief and hope, but a ballad has to focus on something sharper than that, to be called a ballad

oh and one more thing...just gotta say this before I go; had a closer look at the lyrics of LIND...

the lyrics of Laugh I Nearly Died is about a man obsessed with himself and what he's been through....allthough he's cynical about it having no meaning now. The singer obviously has no deep love to think back on, it's all about himself. "How she hurt his pride" seems to be the worst thing his previous woman ever did. And the way it ends "who is going to be my guide".....says something about this man only want to find "somebody else", no-matter *who*, as he just wants that company for his own enjoyment. IOW, this is a selfcentered and cynical person - with no special emotions connected to anybody else out there. There's no love to be found anywhere. Now that's hardly a theme for a "ballad"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-22 16:20 by Erik_Snow.

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Erik_Snow
the lyrics of Laugh I Nearly Died is about a man obsessed with himself and what he's been through....allthough he's cynical about it having no meaning now. The singer obviously has no deep love to think back on, it's all about himself. "How she hurt his pride" seems to be the worst thing his previous woman ever did. And the way it ends "who is going to be my guide".....says something about this man only want to find "somebody else", no-matter *who*, as he just wants that company for his own enjoyment. IOW, this is a selfcentered and cynical person - with no special emotions connected to anybody else out there. There's no love to be found anywhere. Now that's hardly a theme for a "ballad"

i think this is what you think about jagger or yourself or somebody, and are
projecting it onto the song.

you hear "no emotions". i hear nothing but emotions, what more can i say?

musically, maybe the strongest parallel: JB's wonderful "this is a man's world"

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Erik_Snow
The same way I don't think, for instance, "Love Sick" by Dylan is a ballad

Great song, might have to dust that one off before the game.

Is Coming Down Again a ballad then?

Angie, the most ballad of them all?

Eventually, I see some praise of "Sweethearts Together", which I fancy.

On first hearing "Always Suffering" in the context of Bridges to Babylon, I thought, a little disappointed after the two preceding songs that immediately pleased me, it had to be a rework of some songs they must have done before. However, it soon grew on me, developed an identity of its own, and, in addition to everything and always telling with me, musical and non-musical (in this case, emotional) aspects of the song began to interplay. Because of that, "Always Suffering" has grown to be possibly my personal favourite of songs on their latest three studio albums taken together. [Hopefully, I write latest, not last.] Whether I also hold "Always Suffering" to be the best song of these three albums, I do not know. In fact, I have not thought about it. By the way, this is the first thread I can remember "Always Suffering" written about.

I first have to stress that I can give no alternative, but I have never liked how the phrase "ballad" is used about so many songs that I would have preferred described by other terms. Sometimes, even when I agree that "ballad" is relevant, to me, all the same, it becomes too little spesific to an extent that it to me obscures what a song more is like. In other cases, songs that I never have thought of as "ballads", are described by that phrase."Laugh I Nearly Died" is a good example to me, too.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-22 17:06 by Witness.

yeah i'm glad to hear about fellow fans of "sweethearts together" too.

it literally brought me to tears, of joy, at the time, to hear mick and
keith singing that to each other.

sh-waddy-wop (or whatever it is they sing. havent heard it in forever)

Love the solo for Always Suffering, just wish it was longer.

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superrevvy

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Erik_Snow
the lyrics of Laugh I Nearly Died is about a man obsessed with himself and what he's been through....allthough he's cynical about it having no meaning now. The singer obviously has no deep love to think back on, it's all about himself. "How she hurt his pride" seems to be the worst thing his previous woman ever did. And the way it ends "who is going to be my guide".....says something about this man only want to find "somebody else", no-matter *who*, as he just wants that company for his own enjoyment. IOW, this is a selfcentered and cynical person - with no special emotions connected to anybody else out there. There's no love to be found anywhere. Now that's hardly a theme for a "ballad"

i think this is what you think about jagger or yourself or somebody, and are
projecting it onto the song.

you hear "no emotions". i hear nothing but emotions, what more can i say?

musically, maybe the strongest parallel: JB's wonderful "this is a man's world"

Absolutely, superrevvy.

...."says something about this man only want to find "somebody else", no-matter *who*, as he just wants that company for his own enjoyment"... - what a load of bullocks!
Derive such a conclusion from this song - one must be really biased, to argue with it completely pointless

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Erik_Snow

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Erik_Snow

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superrevvy
If you also detect some underlying anger (what you calling cynicism), that fits
too. Thats what comes next in the stages of grief. That's what's always bubbling
under when you've been hurt.

BTW, all different stages of "grief" can't be catogorized under the "love" or "ballad" category, like the "cynical and selfcentered stage of grief" Jagger is pretending to be under in Laugh I Nearly Died. If so, then one could call for example a song about "disillusion" or another stage....the "going on with ones life and see a new morning"-stage-of-grief, a ballad. And that's not the case. Nearly all aspects of life deals with grief and hope, but a ballad has to focus on something sharper than that, to be called a ballad

oh and one more thing...just gotta say this before I go; had a closer look at the lyrics of LIND...

the lyrics of Laugh I Nearly Died is about a man obsessed with himself and what he's been through....allthough he's cynical about it having no meaning now. The singer obviously has no deep love to think back on, it's all about himself. "How she hurt his pride" seems to be the worst thing his previous woman ever did. And the way it ends "who is going to be my guide".....says something about this man only want to find "somebody else", no-matter *who*, as he just wants that company for his own enjoyment. IOW, this is a selfcentered and cynical person - with no special emotions connected to anybody else out there. There's no love to be found anywhere. Now that's hardly a theme for a "ballad"

gazza still owes me and this community an explanation for his adoration of L,IND. until he releases this information, i will be holding all his value in an offshore trust.

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Doxa


Hmm... I think the best stuff in that category - as over-all, too - is Keith's contribution.

- Doxa

I don't get it. You're talking about one song - and it's over-all best contribution?

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StonesTod
gazza still owes me and this community an explanation for his adoration of L,IND. until he releases this information, i will be holding all his value in an offshore trust.

I don't get it. Jaw droppingly great and you need an explanation? can you
hear "when a man loves a women?" can you hear "this is a man's world"?
can you hear "that's how strong my love is"?

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superrevvy

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StonesTod
gazza still owes me and this community an explanation for his adoration of L,IND. until he releases this information, i will be holding all his value in an offshore trust.

I don't get it. Jaw droppingly great and you need an explanation? can you
hear "when a man loves a women?" can you hear "this is a man's world"?
can you hear "that's how strong my love is"?

i can't hear anything in l,ind, cos it's unlistenable. that's why i need gazza to tell me what i'm missing.

"laugh i nearly died" is that nearly oscar-winning moment in "man from elysian
fields" when jagger after a long long time of gigoloing for angelica huston
decides he really loves her after all and wants to spend the rest of his life
with her and proposes and she LAUGHS at him.

that moment of perfect humiliation when the object and subject of all your
desire LAUGHS at you.

and you still have to find a way to go on.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-22 17:56 by superrevvy.

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Doxa


Okay, Keith's "Slippin Away" sounds boring in STEEL WHEELS, but I felt love to the song when I heard it live. Then it made sense (still rememer the first concert and the moment of realizing it). "The Worst" is a joke-like little song. Like Jagger's "New Faces", it can't stand repeated listenings, and starts get annoying. "Thief In the Night" and "Thru and Thru" are atmopshere exercises. Maybe a bit boring in upfront but they have some depth that fascinates me. Good efforts. Mature music. Then "How Can I Stop" is one of the greatest and most memorable things they have done since 1989 reunion. "Losing My Touch" is Richards ballad by numbers, as is the song in A BIGGER BANG, that has the word "empty" in it, I can't recall it now - but Keith's delivery makes it worth listening/s. He moves me.



- Doxa

Well, he doesn't move me at all. I find "his delivery" very annoining. I think KR's singing is posing, as well as his tiring, long memorized by heart one liners "it's good to be here, it' is good to be anywhere".
I can see from his songs the same man who wrote the Life - "look at me I'm so honest, so sincere I'll give you my heart and soul" - but in practice he sells out his freinds, settles scores and rides on Stones fame to to satisfy his own ego

You can prize How Can I Stop as you like but it is not in millions years the best thing Stones did in last 25 years.

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StonesTod

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superrevvy
I don't get it. Jaw droppingly great and you need an explanation? can you
hear "when a man loves a women?" can you hear "this is a man's world"?
can you hear "that's how strong my love is"?

i can't hear anything in l,ind, cos it's unlistenable. that's why i need gazza to tell me what i'm missing.

seriously, among other things, i'm a researcher. i really wanna know if you can
hear "when a man" and "man's world" and "that's how strong" but cannot hear
"laugh". not to judge you but to be amazed. strictly for the wonderment of it all.

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proudmary

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Doxa


Hmm... I think the best stuff in that category - as over-all, too - is Keith's contribution.

- Doxa

I don't get it. You're talking about one song - and it's over-all best contribution?

Well, thanks for asking a clarification. For me it surely is anything like "against Mick"/"for Keith" campaign here... . I honestly like Keith's ballad stuff most in recent Stones albums - the albums I find very mediocre generally. To my ears Keith expresses something that has an effect on me, whereas Mick's ballad section sounds so calculated. I like the Dylan comparison - Dylan is my big hero - here in regards to Keith's stuff. Within his limited range, Keith sounds convincing and somehow artsiticwise mature. Mick, by contrast, is somehow lost to his own technical abilities, and it is rather rare he goes out of his comfort zone, and challenges himself. His delivery sounds so safe and sure, and sometimes the vocal perfection - that seems to mark certain cliches and nasal tricks - leaves the expressive value to a second place. That leaves me cold. In a way it resembles his performance act. It makes me think that is this all form, and no substance at all any longer. That he doesn't express anything anymore at all; there is nothing to 'say' any longer. Just the ability. (But there are expections as I pointed earlier)

The "over-all" comment means that I feel that The Stones musical heritage is somehow made deeper with Keith's "ballad section" during the modern era. The only thing I find somehow as a mark of development in music since their come-back in 1989, or adding something substantive to the stuff they had already done, say, from 1962 to 1983. And that is not very much.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-22 18:03 by Doxa.

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superrevvy

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StonesTod

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superrevvy
I don't get it. Jaw droppingly great and you need an explanation? can you
hear "when a man loves a women?" can you hear "this is a man's world"?
can you hear "that's how strong my love is"?

i can't hear anything in l,ind, cos it's unlistenable. that's why i need gazza to tell me what i'm missing.

seriously, among other things, i'm a researcher. i really wanna know if you can
hear "when a man" and "man's world" and "that's how strong" but cannot hear
"laugh". not to judge you but to be amazed. strictly for the wonderment of it all.

it's laughable to put that song in the league with the others. please judge me. i like it.

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proudmary

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superrevvy

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Erik_Snow
the lyrics of Laugh I Nearly Died is about a man obsessed with himself and what he's been through....allthough he's cynical about it having no meaning now. The singer obviously has no deep love to think back on, it's all about himself. "How she hurt his pride" seems to be the worst thing his previous woman ever did. And the way it ends "who is going to be my guide".....says something about this man only want to find "somebody else", no-matter *who*, as he just wants that company for his own enjoyment. IOW, this is a selfcentered and cynical person - with no special emotions connected to anybody else out there. There's no love to be found anywhere. Now that's hardly a theme for a "ballad"

i think this is what you think about jagger or yourself or somebody, and are
projecting it onto the song.

you hear "no emotions". i hear nothing but emotions, what more can i say?

musically, maybe the strongest parallel: JB's wonderful "this is a man's world"

Absolutely, superrevvy.

...."says something about this man only want to find "somebody else", no-matter *who*, as he just wants that company for his own enjoyment"... - what a load of bullocks!
Derive such a conclusion from this song - one must be really biased, to argue with it completely pointless

Then thank you for not even trying. A discussion and argument with you would be pointless, that's true. We know that from previous discussions and threads, don't we?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-22 18:08 by Erik_Snow.

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StonesTod

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superrevvy
seriously, among other things, i'm a researcher. i really wanna know if you can
hear "when a man" and "man's world" and "that's how strong" but cannot hear
"laugh". not to judge you but to be amazed. strictly for the wonderment of it all.

it's laughable to put that song in the league with the others. please judge me. i like it.

don't worry. for the upcoming 50th compilation we're gonna get a new version,
mick taylor rough-riding all over it with a ceaseless solo. then you can sing
its praises.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-22 18:08 by superrevvy.

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proudmary
You can prize How Can I Stop as you like but it is not in millions years the best thing Stones did in last 25 years.

Well, if my judgment is any worth, being "best thing Stones did in the last 25 years", is not actually very much. At least if compared to the stuff in the previous 25 years.

"How Can I Stop" is among best songs I think but there are others as well, such as "Saint of Me", and "Out of Control". The best is, of course. "Plundered My Soul", the greatest thing since TATTOO YOU.

- Doxa

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StonesTod

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treaclefingers
I thought the title of this thread was an oxymoron.

calling a defenseless thread a moron is a cheap, stupid insult.

Sorry I beat you to it.

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superrevvy

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StonesTod

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superrevvy
seriously, among other things, i'm a researcher. i really wanna know if you can
hear "when a man" and "man's world" and "that's how strong" but cannot hear
"laugh". not to judge you but to be amazed. strictly for the wonderment of it all.

it's laughable to put that song in the league with the others. please judge me. i like it.

don't worry. for the upcoming 50th compilation we're gonna get a new version,
mick taylor rough-riding all over it with a ceaseless solo. then you can sing
its praises.

an instrumental vsn with mt soaring might change my opinion. but the truth is that jagger as a soul singer was never in the class of brown or redding or burke cooke or any other the other soul greats....and couple that with these weird, mannered vocal personas he's adopted over the years and a weak song like l,ind goes from forgettable to unlistenable....