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Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: May 9, 2019 20:29

The slide.... BARRROOOWWWWWWW RAOWWWWW RAOWWW ROAAAAARAAAAOOORRRR RAOWRRR RAOWRRRRRR... there's a tramp sittin' on my doorstep...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-05-10 00:59 by GasLightStreet.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: HMS ()
Date: May 9, 2019 21:49

This song is one of their best "deep cuts" ever. I could listen to it for hours.. Unfortunately such songs will never surface on any compilation. (Maybe HONK should have had another bonus-CD filled with deep cuts. Lots of them lying around waiting to be picked.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: hopkins ()
Date: May 10, 2019 07:32

love it. from first hearing and always.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: Swayed1967 ()
Date: May 10, 2019 07:49

It's Jagger on training wheels. Not too bad really...worth a listen now and then...but it's the second song he ever wrote by himself and it shows. I'll echo what others have said - it's the worst song on Beggars. It's probably not necessary to say that since it doesn't disgrace the album in the least...and yet labelling it worst feels so right.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: matxil ()
Date: May 10, 2019 10:21

Good song. I especially like the occasional fill Charlie does just at the right time. Yes, the lyrics are very Dylan-inspired but they work and the mood of the song is just very good. It also fits in nicely on the album.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: saltoftheearth ()
Date: May 10, 2019 11:22

Quote
Swayed1967
It's Jagger on training wheels. Not too bad really...worth a listen now and then...but it's the second song he ever wrote by himself and it shows. I'll echo what others have said - it's the worst song on Beggars. It's probably not necessary to say that since it doesn't disgrace the album in the least...and yet labelling it worst feels so right.

In my opinion the Beggars Banquet album only works as an album. For instance, Dear dorctor or Jigsaw puzzle are no classic Songs but in he context of the albumthey shine like all the others.

Re: Jigsaw Puzzle
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: May 10, 2019 11:36

Quote
LazarusSmith
Quote
HalfNanker
Quote
DandelionPowderman

Or he just wants out, as soon as the rain stops. No need to overcomplicate this smiling smiley

i cant believe I'm jumping in on this silly "discussion" but it has stopped raining and he wants to finish and get out before it starts again.

It's possible that English is not Mick's first language, I'll grant you that -- the boy had a very cosmop upbringing. In English, we don't say "anymore" to refer to a situation that previously existed but has since ceased. "Anymore" rather refers to a condition that is ongoing and that the speaker wishes would stop. Therefore, it is raining, he doesn't wish it to rain anymore. Let's say a friend was actively bullying you - you might say "I don't want you to do that anymore." But if he had bullied you last week and stopped, you would instead say "I hope he doesn't bully me again," not "I hope he doesn't bully me anymore." There is always a sense of "at the present time" surrounding the use of "anymore."

Switching gears entirely ... what if "Jigsaw Puzzle" could also be seen as a sort of 'dry-run' for "Memo From Turner"?

Question about correct language, something which the actual use of language not always is :

Apart from the contexts 1) a one time bullying last week, and 2) an ongoing bullying at this moment, what would be the adequate term (anymore/again) for a wish to avoid bullying later on, when the context instead is 3) a repeated bullying taking place for instance each Tuesday when the two of them are together in a setting that is always the same on Tuesdays? Lending the situation more or less an existing habit and on another ensuing Tuesday is going to belong to its present time.

Edit: The PC quite often prints capital letters, which I did not Write.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-05-10 12:09 by Witness.

Re: Jigsaw Puzzle
Posted by: Swayed1967 ()
Date: May 10, 2019 11:49

Quote
Witness

Question about correct Language, something which the actual use of language not always is :

Apart from the contexts 1) a one time bullying last week, and 2) an ongoing bullying at this moment, what would be the adequate term (anymore/again) for a wish to avoid bullying later on, when the context instead is 3) a repeated bullying taking place for instance each Tuesday when the two of them are together in a setting that is always the same on Tuesdays? Lending the situation more or less an existing habit and on another ensuing Tuesday is going to belong to its present time.


That's very amusing.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: Swayed1967 ()
Date: May 10, 2019 11:50

Quote
saltoftheearth
Quote
Swayed1967
It's Jagger on training wheels. Not too bad really...worth a listen now and then...but it's the second song he ever wrote by himself and it shows. I'll echo what others have said - it's the worst song on Beggars. It's probably not necessary to say that since it doesn't disgrace the album in the least...and yet labelling it worst feels so right.

In my opinion the Beggars Banquet album only works as an album. For instance, Dear dorctor or Jigsaw puzzle are no classic Songs but in he context of the albumthey shine like all the others.

I’d say that’s pretty much everyone’s opinion and for the initiated almost goes without saying. It’s a fair point of course but in Track Talk we must pretend the song was released only as a 45 – otherwise we get bogged down by these ‘greater than the sum of its parts’ arguments. Not that I’m unsympathetic to that type of argument. I mean The Rolling Stones are the poster boys for that line of thinking.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Date: May 10, 2019 11:59

Quote
Swayed1967
Quote
saltoftheearth
Quote
Swayed1967
It's Jagger on training wheels. Not too bad really...worth a listen now and then...but it's the second song he ever wrote by himself and it shows. I'll echo what others have said - it's the worst song on Beggars. It's probably not necessary to say that since it doesn't disgrace the album in the least...and yet labelling it worst feels so right.

In my opinion the Beggars Banquet album only works as an album. For instance, Dear dorctor or Jigsaw puzzle are no classic Songs but in he context of the albumthey shine like all the others.

I’d say that’s pretty much everyone’s opinion and for the initiated almost goes without saying. It’s a fair point of course but in Track Talk we must pretend the song was released only as a 45 – otherwise we get bogged down by these ‘greater than the sum of its parts’ arguments. Not that I’m unsympathetic to that type of argument. I mean The Rolling Stones are the poster boys for that line of thinking.

I think saltofearth makes a really good point. Yes, we should really judge each song on it's very own, but it's just not like that. On this board, the second a song title pops up, everyone automatically clicks to "Ok, song 3 on side 2 from '71" or whatever, before even uttering a word. So the placement of a song in their history is ingrained. It would be unfair to a song like "Dear Doctor" to judge it as a possible 45 because it would fail.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: May 10, 2019 15:17

Quote
GasLightStreet
The slide.... BARRROOOWWWWWWW RAOWWWWW RAOWWW ROAAAAARAAAAOOORRRR RAOWRRR RAOWRRRRRR... there's a tramp sittin' on my doorstep...

grinning smiley

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: LeonidP ()
Date: May 10, 2019 15:48

Quote
hopkins
love it. from first hearing and always.

Same here. And furthermore, I hate doing "pick your all time top 10" w/ Stones as it is truly impossible, but still, I am pretty certain Jigsaw would make my top 10.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: chevysales ()
Date: May 10, 2019 17:19

Sandwich board advertising man is wearing

Re: Jigsaw Puzzle
Posted by: LazarusSmith ()
Date: May 10, 2019 20:12

Quote
Witness
Quote
LazarusSmith
Quote
HalfNanker
Quote
DandelionPowderman

Or he just wants out, as soon as the rain stops. No need to overcomplicate this smiling smiley

i cant believe I'm jumping in on this silly "discussion" but it has stopped raining and he wants to finish and get out before it starts again.

It's possible that English is not Mick's first language, I'll grant you that -- the boy had a very cosmop upbringing. In English, we don't say "anymore" to refer to a situation that previously existed but has since ceased. "Anymore" rather refers to a condition that is ongoing and that the speaker wishes would stop. Therefore, it is raining, he doesn't wish it to rain anymore. Let's say a friend was actively bullying you - you might say "I don't want you to do that anymore." But if he had bullied you last week and stopped, you would instead say "I hope he doesn't bully me again," not "I hope he doesn't bully me anymore." There is always a sense of "at the present time" surrounding the use of "anymore."

Switching gears entirely ... what if "Jigsaw Puzzle" could also be seen as a sort of 'dry-run' for "Memo From Turner"?

Question about correct language, something which the actual use of language not always is :

Apart from the contexts 1) a one time bullying last week, and 2) an ongoing bullying at this moment, what would be the adequate term (anymore/again) for a wish to avoid bullying later on, when the context instead is 3) a repeated bullying taking place for instance each Tuesday when the two of them are together in a setting that is always the same on Tuesdays? Lending the situation more or less an existing habit and on another ensuing Tuesday is going to belong to its present time.

Edit: The PC quite often prints capital letters, which I did not Write.

This is a good question and a bit of a puzzler. I wouldn't swear on a stack of Tarot cards but here's my best guess:

For a condition that might occur in the future, regardless of its relative habituation, we are, in fact, talking about the future ... and expressing a hope about something that might or might not occur. In your example, on any given Tuesday, in spite of the fact that there may have been bullying on any number of prior Tuesdays, you still have no way of knowing whether there will be more bullying to come on the day in question. Therefore, "anymore" is also inappropriate here - since there is no active ongoing current state of being bullied - and we must revert to the use of "again," as in, "I really hope he doesn't bully me next Tuesday again, as he has done on Tuesdays in the past."

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Date: May 10, 2019 20:44

What's up with the "you was a beauty..." in She's So Cold, btw?

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: LazarusSmith ()
Date: May 10, 2019 21:01

Quote
DandelionPowderman
What's up with the "you was a beauty..." in She's So Cold, btw?

Yeah! Or the "No" in "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" when clearly "(I Can't Get Any) Satisfaction" was called for! Double negative much, Mick?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-05-10 21:01 by LazarusSmith.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: May 11, 2019 00:25

Give Me Shelter …. just don't have the same danger to it …..



ROCKMAN

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: LazarusSmith ()
Date: May 11, 2019 00:30

Quote
Swayed1967
Quote
saltoftheearth
Quote
Swayed1967
It's Jagger on training wheels. Not too bad really...worth a listen now and then...but it's the second song he ever wrote by himself and it shows. I'll echo what others have said - it's the worst song on Beggars. It's probably not necessary to say that since it doesn't disgrace the album in the least...and yet labelling it worst feels so right.

In my opinion the Beggars Banquet album only works as an album. For instance, Dear dorctor or Jigsaw puzzle are no classic Songs but in he context of the albumthey shine like all the others.

I’d say that’s pretty much everyone’s opinion and for the initiated almost goes without saying. It’s a fair point of course but in Track Talk we must pretend the song was released only as a 45 – otherwise we get bogged down by these ‘greater than the sum of its parts’ arguments. Not that I’m unsympathetic to that type of argument. I mean The Rolling Stones are the poster boys for that line of thinking.

It's such an odd thing -- the era of the "album" that many of us have lived in our entire lives. It had a good run - what, maybe 40 or 50 years? But I wonder if ultimately it will be seen as a tiny footnote in the history of recorded music: "There was a time, Padawan, when otherwise forgettable or not-quite-up-to-snuff songs were forgiven their shortcomings because they fit well within an overall 'album feel.'"

One way to justify such an approach - if you take a giant step backward and engage the 10,000 foot view - would be if we saw an 'album' as a single piece of music ... the way we look at, say, a Mahler symphony as a piece of music. We might then say that 'Jigsaw Puzzle' works BECAUSE it's on Beggars Banquet, the same way an overly long 2nd movement in Mahler works in the context of the symphony it sits inside ... but wouldn't be exceptional if required to 'stand alone' as a piece of music in and of itself.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: HMS ()
Date: May 11, 2019 01:21

In my opinion, this song can stand proudly on it´s own feet and doesn´t necessarily need any album-related-context.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: drewmaster ()
Date: May 11, 2019 01:24

I can't resist weighing on the "anymore" debate.

If I'm looking out the window and it's not raining now but it recently rained, it would be perfectly normal for me to say "I hope it doesn't rain anymore".

If I'm looking out the window and it's currently raining, it would be strange for me to say "I hope it doesn't rain anymore", although grammatically it would be acceptable since the rain could stop the moment that I say that.

So in all likelihood the narrator is trying to do his jig-saw puzzle before the rain, which had stopped, starts up again.

The question then becomes, what does it mean to "do" a jig-saw puzzle? Does it imply completing it, or merely working on it?

Drew

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: LazarusSmith ()
Date: May 11, 2019 01:34

Quote
HMS
In my opinion, this song can stand proudly on it´s own feet and doesn´t necessarily need any album-related-context.

Of course. And it appears many people feel that way. I was just responding to a few people who had opined about the album-related pt of view.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: CindyC ()
Date: May 11, 2019 01:40

Quote
drewmaster
The question then becomes, what does it mean to "do" a jig-saw puzzle? Does it imply completing it, or merely working on it?

Drew

It means working on it with the intention of completing it at some point, not necessarily that day.

Although for me it means that day. I've stayed up all night doing them on occasion. The instant gratification of seeing something come together keeps me going.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: LazarusSmith ()
Date: May 11, 2019 01:56

Quote
drewmaster
I can't resist weighing on the "anymore" debate.

If I'm looking out the window and it's not raining now but it recently rained, it would be perfectly normal for me to say "I hope it doesn't rain anymore".

If I'm looking out the window and it's currently raining, it would be strange for me to say "I hope it doesn't rain anymore", although grammatically it would be acceptable since the rain could stop the moment that I say that.

So in all likelihood the narrator is trying to do his jig-saw puzzle before the rain, which had stopped, starts up again.

The question then becomes, what does it mean to "do" a jig-saw puzzle? Does it imply completing it, or merely working on it?

Drew

The "I hope it doesn't" is a different sentence structure, though. The singer says "before it rains anymore." His words make no sense if in fact it wasn't raining at the time he sang them.

The "do" is fascinating, though! I would say "do" means "complete" in this context since he is rushing to achieve something before "it rains anymore" - which, as we've discussed, makes no sense. Anyone can "work" on a jigsaw puzzle, even for a split-second. So, obviously, he would have no problem with his "do," by that definition. What he is trying to do, though, is more complex, and so I say he is trying to complete the jigsaw puzzle before the rain, which is raining, rains anymore.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: wonderboy ()
Date: May 11, 2019 02:03

Quote
drewmaster
I can't resist weighing on the "anymore" debate.

If I'm looking out the window and it's not raining now but it recently rained, it would be perfectly normal for me to say "I hope it doesn't rain anymore".

If I'm looking out the window and it's currently raining, it would be strange for me to say "I hope it doesn't rain anymore", although grammatically it would be acceptable since the rain could stop the moment that I say that.

So in all likelihood the narrator is trying to do his jig-saw puzzle before the rain, which had stopped, starts up again.

The question then becomes, what does it mean to "do" a jig-saw puzzle? Does it imply completing it, or merely working on it?

Drew

Well said.

The narrator is only able to do the puzzle because there is a break in the 'rain' (not literal rain, just the craziness going on around him.) The puzzle could be anything -- finish writing these lrics, make this girl, get the band into the studio all together so we can record a song,

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: CindyC ()
Date: May 11, 2019 02:04

Quote
GasLightStreet
The slide.... BARRROOOWWWWWWW RAOWWWWW RAOWWW ROAAAAARAAAAOOORRRR RAOWRRR RAOWRRRRRR... there's a tramp sittin' on my doorstep...

Yes! or this sound which I think we've determined is the mellotron....

"i'm just trying to do this (start sound) jigsaw puzzle - before it rains anymore.... dun dun "Yes, yes I!" dun dun dun dun badoom-badoom "aw'right!"

Wasn't looking too good, but I was feeling real well.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: drewmaster ()
Date: May 11, 2019 02:11

Quote
LazarusSmith
The "I hope it doesn't" is a different sentence structure, though. The singer says "before it rains anymore." His words make no sense if in fact it wasn't raining at the time he sang them.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. I think his words make MORE sense if it isn't raining at the time he sang them.

Quote
LazarusSmith
The "do" is fascinating, though! I would say "do" means "complete" in this context since he is rushing to achieve something before "it rains anymore" - which, as we've discussed, makes no sense. Anyone can "work" on a jigsaw puzzle, even for a split-second. So, obviously, he would have no problem with his "do," by that definition. What he is trying to do, though, is more complex, and so I say he is trying to complete the jigsaw puzzle before the rain, which is raining, rains anymore.
I agree except for your assertion that it's raining. It did rain, but not at the moment he's singing the lyric.

Drew



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-05-11 02:12 by drewmaster.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: drewmaster ()
Date: May 11, 2019 02:12

Quote
wonderboy
The narrator is only able to do the puzzle because there is a break in the 'rain' (not literal rain, just the craziness going on around him.) The puzzle could be anything -- finish writing these lrics, make this girl, get the band into the studio all together so we can record a song,

Nice! I hadn't thought about it in those metaphorical terms but now that you mention it it makes perfect sense!

Drew

Re: Jigsaw Puzzle
Posted by: stanlove ()
Date: May 11, 2019 04:26

Quote
LazarusSmith
well to each his own, of course

lyrics to me are 3rd rate scattershot pseudo-psychedelic dylan -- really, 20,000 grandmas wave their hankies in the air? this is only marginally better than them 4,000 holes in blackburn lancashire.

and musically i find it just whines on and on with a plodding repetitiveness that sucks the life outta ya

it just got no SOUL

Yeah it is pretty awful. One of the worst songs they ever did. They wanted to be Dylan and it is forced and cringeworthy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-05-11 04:28 by stanlove.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: wonderboy ()
Date: May 11, 2019 05:16

Quote
drewmaster
Quote
wonderboy
The narrator is only able to do the puzzle because there is a break in the 'rain' (not literal rain, just the craziness going on around him.) The puzzle could be anything -- finish writing these lrics, make this girl, get the band into the studio all together so we can record a song,

Nice! I hadn't thought about it in those metaphorical terms but now that you mention it it makes perfect sense!

Drew

Thank you! Just followed where you led.

Re: Track Talk: Jig-Saw Puzzle
Posted by: marianna ()
Date: May 11, 2019 07:15

The rain could be nuclear fallout. It may have been inspired by Dylan's "A Hard Rain's A Gonna Fall." The Queen started a war and the grannies are in trouble. All he can do is stay inside away from the fallout and do his jigsaw puzzle. Of course, that could be wrong, but CCR had their own rain-as-war song. Ray Davies wanted to be an "Apeman"(the Kinks 1970 song) and sit in the trees and eat bananas all day due partly to his fear of nuclear war.

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