Agree with all the comments but don't think anyone has really mentioned Nicky's incredible piano on this tune

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Mathijs

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His Majesty
but the slide was done live with the bass, piano and drums. The acoustic is an overdub.

I really wonder, I doubt the slide was done live. I bet that the master tape consisted of drums and bass, and all else is overdubbed later on.

Mathijs

No way, consider the slide guitarist is counting them in, it's the sound of them playing together live, the sound on the bootleg cd is same as the released take, no one in their right mind wood go back through an entire tape of screwed up takes and dub on slide.

On the cd the final take is quite close to the realised version, Keith slowly getting the knack for the freaky part.

A master piece of music
One of the best without a doubt
The atmosphere of this song is unique and amazing
They never have reached these sensations again

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NICOS

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StonesTod
didn't we just have a convo about this tune? i'll be damned if i'll repeat myself or say the same things over and over again or reiterate what i've said previously or echo thoughts i've shared or in any way be duplicative of prior insights i've given.

I suggest to add the link so Track Talk can be more complete

Here you are:

[www.iorr.org]

Yes, I know the lyrics are very clever and witty and Dylanesque and all that (I do agree that they're good) - but what on earth is Jigsaw Puzzle about?

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Green Lady

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NICOS

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StonesTod
didn't we just have a convo about this tune? i'll be damned if i'll repeat myself or say the same things over and over again or reiterate what i've said previously or echo thoughts i've shared or in any way be duplicative of prior insights i've given.

I suggest to add the link so Track Talk can be more complete

Here you are:

[www.iorr.org]

Yes, I know the lyrics are very clever and witty and Dylanesque and all that (I do agree that they're good) - but what on earth is Jigsaw Puzzle about?

like all good dylan songs, it's about anything you want it to be about. the other day it was about occupy wall street...

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Green Lady

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NICOS

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StonesTod
didn't we just have a convo about this tune? i'll be damned if i'll repeat myself or say the same things over and over again or reiterate what i've said previously or echo thoughts i've shared or in any way be duplicative of prior insights i've given.

I suggest to add the link so Track Talk can be more complete

Here you are:

[www.iorr.org]

Yes, I know the lyrics are very clever and witty and Dylanesque and all that (I do agree that they're good) - but what on earth is Jigsaw Puzzle about?

Well that Jigsaw Puzzle isn't that hard for me

Me, I'm waiting so patiently
Lying on the floor
I'm just trying to do this jig-saw puzzle
Before it rains anymore

I think he lie irretrievably on the floor just to solve something............... but why "before it rains anymore"

__________________________

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NICOS

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Green Lady

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NICOS

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StonesTod
didn't we just have a convo about this tune? i'll be damned if i'll repeat myself or say the same things over and over again or reiterate what i've said previously or echo thoughts i've shared or in any way be duplicative of prior insights i've given.

I suggest to add the link so Track Talk can be more complete

Here you are:

[www.iorr.org]

Yes, I know the lyrics are very clever and witty and Dylanesque and all that (I do agree that they're good) - but what on earth is Jigsaw Puzzle about?

Well that Jigsaw Puzzle isn't that hard for me

Me, I'm waiting so patiently
Lying on the floor
I'm just trying to do this jig-saw puzzle
Before it rains anymore

I think he lie irretrievably on the floor just to solve something............... but why "before it rains anymore"

My take has always been he's trying to figure something out (i.e., solve a problem in his life) before things get even worse ('before it rains anymore').

before things get even worse ('before it rains anymore').

great though this makes sense to me

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Jah Paul
My take has always been he's trying to figure something out (i.e., solve a problem in his life) before things get even worse ('before it rains anymore').

But why "patiently" then?

Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

Added some "txt"

There's a tramp sittin' on my doorstep
Tryin' to waste his time
With his methylated sandwich
He's a walking clothesline
And here comes the bishop's daughter
On the other side
She looks a trifle jealous
She's been an outcast all her life

Me, I'm waiting so patiently
Lying on the floor
I'm just trying to do my jig-saw puzzle
Before it rains anymore

Oh the gangster looks so fright'ning
With his luger in his hand
When he gets home to his children
He's a family man
But when it comes to the nitty-gritty
He can shove in his knife
Yes he really looks quite religious
He's been an outlaw all his life

Me, I'm waiting so patiently
Lying on the floor
I'm just trying to do this jig-saw puzzle
Before it rains anymore

Yes Yes I ……..Oh my my

Me, I'm waiting so patiently
Lying on the floor
I'm just trying to do this jig-saw puzzle
Before it rains anymore

Oh the singer, he looks angry
At being thrown to the lions
And the bass player, he looks nervous
About the girls outside
And the drummer, he's so shattered
Trying to keep on time
And the guitar players look damaged
They've been outcasts all their lives

Me, I'm waiting so patiently
Lying on the floor
I'm just trying to do this jig-saw puzzle
Before it rains anymore

Oh, there's twenty-thousand grandmas
Wave their hankies in the air
All burning up their pensions
And shouting, "It's not fair!"
There's a regiment of soldiers
Standing looking on
And the queen is bravely shouting,
"What the hell is going on?"

With a blood-curdling "tally-ho"
She charged into the ranks
And blessed all those grandmas who
With their dying breaths screamed, "Thanks!"

Me, I'm just waiting so patiently
With my woman on the floor
We're just trying to do this jig-saw puzzle
Before it rains anymore
Oh yeah Hey hey hey Ha ha ha my (He probable solved the Puzzle) ;o)

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Mathijs

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His Majesty
but the slide was done live with the bass, piano and drums. The acoustic is an overdub.

...
I bet that the master tape consisted of drums and bass, and all else is overdubbed later on.

Mathijs

You sure got your terminology screwed up. The master tape is the LAST product before mastering. In other words, the master tape already includes the overdubs.

There's a definite anti-establishment vibe to it - seems to be asking who the real outcasts and criminals are. And then there's this little incident during the 1967 drugs trial, recorded in more than one biography:

"...the court recessed. Marianne Faithfull was allowed ten minutes alone with Mick. She brought him a jigsaw puzzle, more cigarettes and fresh fruit."

Hmmmm...

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marcovandereijk

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Jah Paul
My take has always been he's trying to figure something out (i.e., solve a problem in his life) before things get even worse ('before it rains anymore').

But why "patiently" then?

Sometimes you gotta be patient waiting for things to work out...not all problems can be solved quickly. And in the meantime, you hope things don't get worse!

Great thread!

Great thread! indeed..........love those English comments on this lyrics

(But don't forget ....when they ask Gary Brooker "What A Shade Of Pale" means ...he says nothing........... it just sounds good)

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Carster

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Mathijs

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His Majesty
but the slide was done live with the bass, piano and drums. The acoustic is an overdub.

...
I bet that the master tape consisted of drums and bass, and all else is overdubbed later on.

Mathijs

You sure got your terminology screwed up. The master tape is the LAST product before mastering. In other words, the master tape already includes the overdubs.

Well, not quite 'already includes'. The master tape(s) IS the master tape regardless of any overdubs. It's not the last product before mastering - back then there was a mixdown to whatever size tape, half inch usually, which was used for editing, and from there etc. So the master tape is the recording master only.

Yep, it's a masterpiece alright.

[Oh, there's twenty-thousand grandmas, wave their hankies in the air
All burning up their pensions and shouting "It's not fair!"
There's a regiment of soldiers, standing, looking on
And the Queen is bravely shouting "What the hell is going on ?"
With a blood-curdling "tally-ho", she charged into the ranks
And blessed all those grandmas who with their dying breaths screamed, "Thanks!"]

Someone told me it was referring to a widows' 14-18 war demonstration in London in
1968
Widows wanting their pension to get upgrade, the Queen received them but they
got nothing.

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WeLoveToPlayTheBlues

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Carster

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Mathijs

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His Majesty
but the slide was done live with the bass, piano and drums. The acoustic is an overdub.

...
I bet that the master tape consisted of drums and bass, and all else is overdubbed later on.

Mathijs

You sure got your terminology screwed up. The master tape is the LAST product before mastering. In other words, the master tape already includes the overdubs.

...The master tape(s) IS the master tape regardless of any overdubs. It's not the last product before mastering...
...So the master tape is the recording master only.

You are wrong too (don't worry, most are). And there is no such thing as a 'recording master'.

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Carster

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WeLoveToPlayTheBlues

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Carster

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Mathijs

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His Majesty
but the slide was done live with the bass, piano and drums. The acoustic is an overdub.

...
I bet that the master tape consisted of drums and bass, and all else is overdubbed later on.

Mathijs

You sure got your terminology screwed up. The master tape is the LAST product before mastering. In other words, the master tape already includes the overdubs.

...The master tape(s) IS the master tape regardless of any overdubs. It's not the last product before mastering...
...So the master tape is the recording master only.

You are wrong too (don't worry, most are). And there is no such thing as a 'recording master'.

You are both right. There IS something CALLED a recording master, but it's a contradiction to the term if we first are about to be picky here.

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Carster

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Mathijs

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His Majesty
but the slide was done live with the bass, piano and drums. The acoustic is an overdub.

...
I bet that the master tape consisted of drums and bass, and all else is overdubbed later on.

Mathijs

You sure got your terminology screwed up. The master tape is the LAST product before mastering. In other words, the master tape already includes the overdubs.

Ah, I love the smell of agression in the morning. Nice to see you got it screwed up as well -the Master Tape is the end product with mixed and mastered music that is used to cut the CD's or whatever from.

What I meant was the master that is used to overdub to. They recorded 256 takes of the track, then choose the backing track consisting of drums, bass and whatever, to work upon further in overdub and vocal sessions. That is also refered to as the master tape.

I have not listened to the outtakes recently, but I still would be surprised the slide guitar was done during the recording of the backing track. But Majesty normally knows what he's talking about.

Mathijs

The Master, as used in everyday studio lingo, is the final product used to press; like Mathijs said.
I have never heard the basic tracks ( even the final okayed version of the basic track) called a 'master'. On the other hand, I only know rec. studios in USA.

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Mathijs
Ah, I love the smell of agression in the morning

Aggression...where?

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Mathijs
...the Master Tape is the end product with mixed and mastered music that is used to cut the CD's or whatever from...

WRONG, see further on in this post

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Mathijs
What I meant was the master that is used to overdub to

You don't overdub to any master. You add overdubs to a take resulting in another take.

---

Okay, time for some documentation, don't you think?

I say:
- Master tape means UNMASTERED TAPE
- A master tape isn't mastered until it's mastered
- A master tape is essentially WHAT IS APPROVED FOR MASTERING

Well, not my very own words, but the ones of audio engineer Steve Hoffman.
Read this: [www.stevehoffman.tv]

Now, let me see some hands, who learned something today?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-17 13:48 by Carster.

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Carster
Now, let me see some hands, who learned something today?

Well, I did.

But excuse me if I'm wrong, but the way I read it, what Mathijs is refering to in his first post,
actually seems to me to be the same master tape (to be mastered) as the one you are describing, no?

Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-17 15:00 by marcovandereijk.

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Carster

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Mathijs
Ah, I love the smell of agression in the morning

Aggression...where?

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Mathijs
...the Master Tape is the end product with mixed and mastered music that is used to cut the CD's or whatever from...

WRONG, see further on in this post

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Mathijs
What I meant was the master that is used to overdub to

You don't overdub to any master. You add overdubs to a take resulting in another take.

---

Okay, time for some documentation, don't you think?

I say:
- Master tape means UNMASTERED TAPE
- A master tape isn't mastered until it's mastered
- A master tape is essentially WHAT IS APPROVED FOR MASTERING

Well, not my very own words, but the ones of audio engineer Steve Hoffman.
Read this: [www.stevehoffman.tv]

Now, let me see some hands, who learned something today?

Sorry, that's just wrong. The master tape is the final product used to cut the carrier with. So, normally you have one master mix tape (which is mixed but not mastered), and several master tapes that are thus mixed (as the master mix tape) and mastered for each carrier it is intended for -cassette tape, 8-track, vinyl, CD and whatever more. Still, a master tape can be made from different master mix tapes -that's why the 8-track version of Some Girls has slightly different mixes of several songs than the vinyl version. As master tape is expensive, many studio's re-used master mix tapes for recording, hence the reason why so many classic albums only have the two track master tapes available, which are mixed and mastered for a certain medium. When CD's where introduced all the engineers had to work from was the mixed and mastered two-track tape, and nothing more could be done to change to master from vinyl to CD was to boost treble and use dolby, which in the end dulls the music.

But there's more master tapes. During recording, especially in the old 4, 8 and 16 track days, a band recorded dozens of takes of a certain song. When the best version was chosen, the producer ran the multi-track tape down to a two track master tape, and this master was then used for overdubs. A take is only called a take when the basic track is re-recorded again. Once the overdubbing starts the different stages are usually called versions. This is part of the reason why there are so many outtakes (versions) of the Stones that all have the same drum and bass track. There's a dozen Miss You takes, but all have the same drum, bass and two guitars.

Mathijs

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Mathijs
Sorry, that's just wrong.

You said: "...the Master Tape is the end product with mixed and mastered music that is used to cut the CD's or whatever from...".

Steve Hoffman says otherwise (documented), if you think he's wrong, good luck to you.

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Mathijs
A take is only called a take when the basic track is re-recorded again.

WRONG again. Read the literature (Lewisohn).

---

Signing Off from this thread. You can have the last word if you want.

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Carster

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WeLoveToPlayTheBlues

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Carster

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Mathijs

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His Majesty
but the slide was done live with the bass, piano and drums. The acoustic is an overdub.

...
I bet that the master tape consisted of drums and bass, and all else is overdubbed later on.

Mathijs

You sure got your terminology screwed up. The master tape is the LAST product before mastering. In other words, the master tape already includes the overdubs.

...The master tape(s) IS the master tape regardless of any overdubs. It's not the last product before mastering...
...So the master tape is the recording master only.

You are wrong too (don't worry, most are). And there is no such thing as a 'recording master'.

OK, whatever you want to think. When producers etc talk about 'master tapes' they're not talking about the finished album, they're talking about the multi-track tapes. But you go right ahead thinking otherwise.

To make a 'master' is what was considered, back in the day, the recording that was THE recording, regardless of overdubs. It was deemed 'the master' to mean it was the one they were keeping/working on.

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Carster

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Mathijs
Sorry, that's just wrong.

You said: "...the Master Tape is the end product with mixed and mastered music that is used to cut the CD's or whatever from...".

Steve Hoffman says otherwise (documented), if you think he's wrong, good luck to you.

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Mathijs
A take is only called a take when the basic track is re-recorded again.

WRONG again. Read the literature (Lewisohn).

---

Signing Off from this thread. You can have the last word if you want.

No problem Ron, any way you want it.

Mathijs

Mathijs, that's a Journey song...

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Mathijs


I have not listened to the outtakes recently, but I still would be surprised the slide guitar was done during the recording of the backing track. But Majesty normally knows what he's talking about.

Mathijs

The ongoing session features them recording together, slide guitar, bass, drums and piano.

Mick's providing rough guide vocal and sometimes strumming an acoustic, but that's off mic, it's not being recorded.