Quote
Doxa

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
Doxa

Quote
Come On
4."Hold Back" (Jagger/Richards) – 3:53 -
5."Too Rude" (Lindon Roberts) – 3:11 -
6."Winning Ugly" (Jagger/Richards) – 4:32 -
7."Back to Zero" (Jagger/Richards/Leavell) – 4:00 -

My god! I ´have only listend the album via LP, so this CD sequence made a following click in my mind: is this the nadir of the recording career of the Stones? Are there any´such below the standard songs in sequence (four!) in any other album or product? Back in the vinyl times we didn't notice it so clearly since we had a short breathing break after "Too Rude" when we were going to turn the record side but now listenig to CD without a break must be a hell to get through...

The point is that to save DIRTY WORK from being an all-time low is that the beginning and the end is quite good actually: a purported effective opener "One Hit" (that didn't quite match with its aim), then a throaway but 'not so bad' song "Fight" followed by the obvious hit song, danceable "Harlem Shuffle". The end starts with a typical STones rocker "Dirty Work" that has some 'dirty' edge and swing, then funnily archaic (remenber it was the middle 80´s!) anti-song "Had It With You" to end with okay-Keith ballad "Sleep Tonight which wasn't the norm or even a cliche yet.

But it is those four songs in the middle - the bulk of the album - that actually kills it, and makes DIRT WORK a hard - maybe the hardest Rolling Stones - listening experience over-all... It surely wasn't planned for CD market yet!

- Doxa

You are correct!
How though, come on, can you rationalize so many smoking smiley's for Winning Ugly?

Hell, I didn't! Those are Come On's smileys. I would give each of them one smiley, or none in the case that is allowed. If there is anything interesting in those four songs is that each of them is awful in its own terms (I won't go to details - too frustrating in a sunny day like this we have here in Finland!). But the Stones really show how they can suck in many ways. That's a kind of achievement for a band of their caliber!

(I need to say that even I don't believe that Jagger actually intentionally sabotaged the record to make his solo career look better, this sequence is not far from that conclusion. Since I think Jagger is always the brains and the person who finally decides these kind of matters - with Keith or tries to compromise with Keith's intuitions - it looks like he wasn't really aweke or interest in the quality of the product. Including "Too Rude" shows that Jagger didn't care a damn actually, even though he pays back with his "Back to Zero")

- Doxa

Hi Doxa, yes, I know they are Come On's smiley's. Sorry I was confusing in my post. I replied to your post in the first sentence, then, added a note to Come On as it was part of the same reply. I've bolded where I actually address him on the 'smileys'.

How though, come on, can you rationalize so many smoking smiley's for Winning Ugly?[/quote]

Sorry for the confusion.

One more note on "Too Rude". It reminds me of the struggle teh band had with "Cherry Oh Baby". No matter how much they love reggae and ganja, and have villas in Jamaica and how big rastaman brother Keith is, they seemingly had much difficulties to find a good, personal touch to 'original' reggae. I would say it would take until "Words of Wonder" when Keith really learned how to deliver the goods. I don't know if Charlie Watts has ever found the right, enough relaxed groove for a reggae beat. What Ronnie (?) does in "Too Rude" is one of the worst ever recorded drums!

But if we rate "Too Rude" against "Cherry Oh Baby" (another children's song as as a melody) both they are as far from convincing Rolling Stones performances as can be. But as far "Cherry" goes, thanks to Jagger's Jaggerish vocals that has full of Jaggerian flavor and attitude, it is a kind of joke that saves their faces. But with "Too Rude" Keef and sidekick Ron are so uncritical, dead serious and 'genuine' in their delivery that it makes feel shared feel of shame... I don't feel comfortable at all when listening to that song... I guess I have made myself clear enough by now!><

Anyway, we could make another thread of the reggae songs/influence.

- Doxa

Hi Doxa, yes, I know they are Come On's smiley's. Sorry I was confusing in my post. I replied to your post in the first sentence, then, added a note to Come On as it was part of the same reply. I've bolded where I actually address him on the 'smileys'.

How though, come on, can you rationalize so many smoking smiley's for Winning Ugly?[/quote]

Sorry for the confusion.[/quote]

Aah, never mind, I should have realized that! But thanks to your 'confusion' and mine, I had an excuse to say something I wanted to say...

- Doxa

Quote
Edward Twining
nomis, we are probably closer in our analysis than you may imagine, despite my earlier comment.

'It's Only Rock 'N' Roll' and 'Goats Head Soup' do have a more decadent feel to them, no doubt, which i actually find quite intoxicating. 'Goats Head Soup' is the more consistent of the two in my opinion, yet 'It's Only Rock 'N' Roll' does have that same irrepressible feel intermittently, even if, for me, the contents lack focus and depth in many instances. There was a magic ingredient in music back then, and not just exclusively belonging to the Stones, either, which has been lost as the music, and production, has been cleaned up. Whatever may be 'It's Only Rock 'N' Roll's weakness, and i am prone to think it is their weakest album of the seventies, it does make for a rewarding listen, unlike much of the Stones output post 'Tattoo You'. I even enjoy it stylistically more than 'Some Girls' in some ways, although i have to say i believe 'Some Girls' seems the much more fully realised album of the two. I still think 'It's Only Rock 'N' Roll' beats anything the Stones have released post 'Tattoo You', and easily at that!

Edward: I guess I'd agree that the songwriting is a little weak on Side 2 of IORR. A good listen, but it leaves you wanting something more. Not sure I'd change anything about Side 1. Why didn't they put Waiting on A Friend on Side 2? Come to think of it, why didn't they put Worried About You on Black and Blue?

Quote
Amsterdamned

Quote
Come On
Memory Motel! That's Black and Blue...

That overall bluesy /rock/graveyard atmosphere, a necessary ingredient vanished after black and blue, and came back only occasionally..in an overproduced & polished way. Simple as that .

And what would you call the atmosphere on Some Girls or Emotional Rescue, not to forget Undercover? Down In The Hole might be the most bluesy/rocking/graveyard feeling-song recorded by any band...

Quote
nomis
Edward: I guess I'd agree that the songwriting is a little weak on Side 2 of IORR. A good listen, but it leaves you wanting something more. Not sure I'd change anything about Side 1. Why didn't they put Waiting on A Friend on Side 2? Come to think of it, why didn't they put Worried About You on Black and Blue?

I think side one and two are equally weak on 'It's Only Rock 'N' Roll', actually. There are more uptempo songs on side one, which may seem more typically Stones sounding on a first listen, but they are almost Stones-by-numbers efforts. Keith was really cruising at this point in time, and there did seem a lack of communication within the way the Stones were working, and of course especially between Mick and Keith. It was business as usual, for sure, but the inspiration was just not there in any sufficient quantity. The Stones were of course still young and vital at this point, and potentially still capable of delivering the goods, but they just were not in the right mindset to do so. It's amazing to think in such a short time they'd declined so drastically, certainly from the days of 'Sticky Fingers' and 'Exile On Main Street', and even 'Goats Head Soup' to a degree still maintained that indefineable 'magic' factor, even if elements foresaw where the Stones would be going on 'It's Only Rock 'N' Roll'.

I think it's fair to say 'Black And Blue' was an improvement. The lack of conviction was still in evidence, yet there were also new elements added to the mix, especially a hard edged funk, which had quite an intoxicating groove, even if the songs in question didn't really go far. The ballads were also quite good, and fairly untypical of the Stones usual work up to this point. 'Worried About You' in its 'Tattoo You' form would have helped 'Black And Blue' immeasurably, as it does exude certain quality. To a point, though, so does 'Fool To Cry' and 'Memory Motel', and a third ballad of that general nature may have proved a little too much. Same can be said of 'Waiting On A Friend' too.

As far as 'Dirty Work' is concerned, unlike Doxa, i'm not sure there are truly songs i would call especially good, or bad, more an overall level of mediocrity. Maybe it's true that some songs work better than others, but that's pretty much splitting hairs, because few of them add up to anything of any real significance. 'Dirty Work' though, does display a level of vitality, and as i've said previously, it doesn't suffer from exuding the 'product' branding, like pretty much all of the successive Stones albums seem to.

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Amsterdamned

Quote
Come On
Memory Motel! That's Black and Blue...

That overall bluesy /rock/graveyard atmosphere, a necessary ingredient vanished after black and blue, and came back only occasionally..in an overproduced & polished way. Simple as that .

And what would you call the atmosphere on Some Girls or Emotional Rescue, not to forget Undercover? Down In The Hole might be the most bluesy/rocking/graveyard feeling-song recorded by any band...

As I stated in my post. I don't like the Wood era, the collaboration between Richards and Wood in particular. It just doesn't work for me.
I threw all the albums and boots I got out of the window. It's not in the bible, so don't bother. Just my opinion.

Quote
Doxa
One more note on "Too Rude". It reminds me of the struggle teh band had with "Cherry Oh Baby". No matter how much they love reggae and ganja, and have villas in Jamaica and how big rastaman brother Keith is, they seemingly had much difficulties to find a good, personal touch to 'original' reggae. I would say it would take until "Words of Wonder" when Keith really learned how to deliver the goods. I don't know if Charlie Watts has ever found the right, enough relaxed groove for a reggae beat. What Ronnie (?) does in "Too Rude" is one of the worst ever recorded drums!

But if we rate "Too Rude" against "Cherry Oh Baby" (another children's song as as a melody) both they are as far from convincing Rolling Stones performances as can be. But as far "Cherry" goes, thanks to Jagger's Jaggerish vocals that has full of Jaggerian flavor and attitude, it is a kind of joke that saves their faces. But with "Too Rude" Keef and sidekick Ron are so uncritical, dead serious and 'genuine' in their delivery that it makes feel shared feel of shame... I don't feel comfortable at all when listening to that song... I guess I have made myself clear enough by now!><

Anyway, we could make another thread of the reggae songs/influence.

- Doxa

It sounds infantile. "infantileggae"...maybe that's a new genre?

Pleazzzz, stop the BS. I can understand if you don't like this song or any song but going insane on you comments. Please stop the BS, Too rude is a good song. <- ends with period

How though, come on, can you rationalize so many smoking smiley's for Winning Ugly?[/quote]

For the catchy tune and the guitarwork...

2 1 2 0

Quote
Amsterdamned
That overall bluesy /rock/graveyard atmosphere, a necessary ingredient vanished after black and blue, and came back only occasionally..in an overproduced & polished way. Simple as that .

Except it's not "simple as that."

Sure, "Gimme Shelter" and "Sympathy" and that doom-laden late-60's/early-70's sound is one of the greatest creative runs in all of rock'n'roll history--who (here, of all places) would ever dispute that? Does anyone here need to be reminded that the Beggar's/Let It Bleed/Sticky Fingers/Exile Stones is the most celebrated, most remembered version of the band?

But can you imagine how idiotic the Stones would have sounded had they tried to carry that sound and sensibility on into the Reagan/Thatcher years?

We're so lucky that the Stones have has many, many sounds and "atmospheres" before and after "the Big Four." Dirty Work, for all its flaws, has a great moments of the Stones pushing their rock'n'roll both forward and back into the irreverence and flippancy of the music's early years, before it became "The Sound of A Generation Falling Apart Amid The Social Chaos of The Nineteen-Sixties, blah, blah, blah."

Somebody used the term "fan-boy" for people who are intrigued by the ups-and-downs of the Stones, who are interested in what the Stones were up to--even when they fell (partially) on their faces. Nothing could be farther from the truth: The "fan-boys" are the ones who insist that the only valid version of the Stones is the dark'n'scary Manson-era one and that the humor and creativity of the Wood years aren't a great--or at least fascinating--part of the story.

Picks for the day: "Under Assistant West Coast Promo Man," "Around And Around," "Hide Your Love," "Hey Negrita," "Pretty Beat Up," "Let Me Down Slow"

Pick for the day: Wymans Bass-work on Goin Home

2 1 2 0

I`m a fan-boy , i like Dirty Work , especially Too Rude , Harlem Shuffle , Fight and Winnig Ugly.

Quote
Doxa
One more note on "Too Rude". It reminds me of the struggle teh band had with "Cherry Oh Baby". No matter how much they love reggae and ganja, and have villas in Jamaica and how big rastaman brother Keith is, they seemingly had much difficulties to find a good, personal touch to 'original' reggae. I would say it would take until "Words of Wonder" when Keith really learned how to deliver the goods. I don't know if Charlie Watts has ever found the right, enough relaxed groove for a reggae beat. What Ronnie (?) does in "Too Rude" is one of the worst ever recorded drums!

But if we rate "Too Rude" against "Cherry Oh Baby" (another children's song as as a melody) both they are as far from convincing Rolling Stones performances as can be. But as far "Cherry" goes, thanks to Jagger's Jaggerish vocals that has full of Jaggerian flavor and attitude, it is a kind of joke that saves their faces. But with "Too Rude" Keef and sidekick Ron are so uncritical, dead serious and 'genuine' in their delivery that it makes feel shared feel of shame... I don't feel comfortable at all when listening to that song... I guess I have made myself clear enough by now!><

Anyway, we could make another thread of the reggae songs/influence.

- Doxa

As i mentioned in my previous post , i like Too Rude very much and i think that it`s much more authentic performance than Miracle Worker which is artificial and forced contemporary so-called radio friendly song made by music craftmen.Miracle Worker has value equall to Tv commercial.Too Rude is sweet arrogant joke made by damned tallented gipsy in comparison....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-21 22:45 by benon again.

Quote
NedKelly
This is Keith all the way - everybodys favorite Stone - and still many consider it an album of half decent songs. I just find it interesting, since most people hate Jaggers songs.... :-)

Good point. The songs and sound half-done and performances seem half-assed. I think it was just so disappointing. The first time the Stones seemed really tired and bored. Plus, the 80s were a tough time to fit in for the classic bands from the 60s and 70s...its a testament to its time.

Quote
Rev. Robert W.

Quote
Amsterdamned
That overall bluesy /rock/graveyard atmosphere, a necessary ingredient vanished after black and blue, and came back only occasionally..in an overproduced & polished way. Simple as that .

Except it's not "simple as that."

Sure, "Gimme Shelter" and "Sympathy" and that doom-laden late-60's/early-70's sound is one of the greatest creative runs in all of rock'n'roll history--who (here, of all places) would ever dispute that? Does anyone here need to be reminded that the Beggar's/Let It Bleed/Sticky Fingers/Exile Stones is the most celebrated, most remembered version of the band?

But can you imagine how idiotic the Stones would have sounded had they tried to carry that sound and sensibility on into the Reagan/Thatcher years?


We're so lucky that the Stones have has many, many sounds and "atmospheres" before and after "the Big Four." Dirty Work, for all its flaws, has a great moments of the Stones pushing their rock'n'roll both forward and back into the irreverence and flippancy of the music's early years, before it became "The Sound of A Generation Falling Apart Amid The Social Chaos of The Nineteen-Sixties, blah, blah, blah."

Somebody used the term "fan-boy" for people who are intrigued by the ups-and-downs of the Stones, who are interested in what the Stones were up to--even when they fell (partially) on their faces. Nothing could be farther from the truth: The "fan-boys" are the ones who insist that the only valid version of the Stones is the dark'n'scary Manson-era one and that the humor and creativity of the Wood years aren't a great--or at least fascinating--part of the story.

Picks for the day: "Under Assistant West Coast Promo Man," "Around And Around," "Hide Your Love," "Hey Negrita," "Pretty Beat Up," "Let Me Down Slow"

I agree only a few people here dispute "Gimme Shelter" and "Sympathy" and that doom-laden late-60's/early-70's sound is one of the greatest creative runs in all of rock'n'roll history.

Imagine they started as an unknown band in
the 8-tees, drugged out playing sloppy and posing like they did? They wouldn't get away with it.

It's a matter of taste of course, but imo they became an average band that got completely outplayed both in a musical and creative way in the late 7-tees, 8-tees and onwards.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-22 00:53 by Amsterdamned.

Kowalski, maybe Mick didn't think the songs were any good ( AGREED) so he didn't try hard to put out a great vocal but to say he " ruins everything with his vocals" sounds like you think NONE of his vocals ever sounded great which is CRAP!Put it this w ay, if Keith sang all the vocals from the start of the Stones there would be NO STONES today and no IORR to post on.

I think Dirty Work as a collection of songs is inferior to most of the Stones catalog. With the exception of " One Hit", the songs are awful. It would be hard for any singer to make these songs sound good!

Quote
mrD
Pleazzzz, stop the BS. I can understand if you don't like this song or any song but going insane on you comments. Please stop the BS, Too rude is a good song. <- ends with period

Ah, it's so much clearer now. It's your opinion we need to be soliciting.

That makes it waaaaaay...easier!

Really it is so bashed because it sucks!

Quote
Amsterdamned

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Amsterdamned

Quote
Come On
Memory Motel! That's Black and Blue...

That overall bluesy /rock/graveyard atmosphere, a necessary ingredient vanished after black and blue, and came back only occasionally..in an overproduced & polished way. Simple as that .

And what would you call the atmosphere on Some Girls or Emotional Rescue, not to forget Undercover? Down In The Hole might be the most bluesy/rocking/graveyard feeling-song recorded by any band...

As I stated in my post. I don't like the Wood era, the collaboration between Richards and Wood in particular. It just doesn't work for me.
I threw all the albums and boots I got out of the window. It's not in the bible, so don't bother. Just my opinion.

Good for you, but the musical feelings you describe is still in the song I mentioned (and no, it´s not a polished, overproduced song, is it? ). There is no way around that, whether you like Taylor or Wood. And remember, there is a guy called Keith Richards in the band, too. After all he was the most important guitarist in the Stones:







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-22 14:53 by DandelionPowderman.

Which of this posts confirm that The album Black and Blue = Memory Motel?

2 1 2 0

It was the 80's. Everthing sucked.

Quote
More Hot Rocks
It was the 80's. Everthing sucked.

True. But in retrospect, it was better than what came after. Macarena anyone? Spice Girls? A little bit o' Monica in my life..................

Quote
More Hot Rocks
It was the 80's. Everthing sucked.

yeah, 2011 is so much better than 1985.

Quote
Amsterdamned
I agree only a few people here dispute "Gimme Shelter" and "Sympathy" and that doom-laden late-60's/early-70's sound is one of the greatest creative runs in all of rock'n'roll history.

Imagine they started as an unknown band in
the 8-tees, drugged out playing sloppy and posing like they did? They wouldn't get away with it.

It's a matter of taste of course, but imo they became an average band that got completely outplayed both in a musical and creative way in the late 7-tees, 8-tees and onwards.

I agree. I don't think stylistic changes are the real issue here, though, it is more to do with the Stones losing interest, once they had reached a peak, and no longer really feeling inclined to keep working at it. The Stones were right to indulge a little in new influences, and more contemporary influences especially, but the dedication was no longer there to fine tune their artistry, like it had been previously. Punk pretty much gave them a kick up the backside just as their musical, in addition to lifestyle indulgencies, started to reach a peak. 'Some Girls' was their most cohesive album since 'Exile On Main Street', because they had found a common sense of purpose which was lacking on those previous few albums, but that new impetus didn't last very long.

I very much share your view on their late sixties/early seventies sound, but to carry on repeating that vibe wouldn't have been a healthy option in my opinion, and would only have anticipated the arrival of their nostalgia inspired act, even sooner. 'Black And Blue' has some fine virtues, especially in terms of the musicianship, and production values, but the Stones at this point very much seemed stuck in a rut, and looking for something to latch onto which would give them a fresh impetus. 'Some Girls' does give the Stones a new lease of life, even though, the album possesses very little for me to get excited about personally. To a point, 'Some Girls' suffers from the limited scope of the album's sources. However, in 78, the Stones did possess a clearer vision, pretty much vital too, and within the framework of what was contemporary at the time. The Stones didn't exactly sacrifice their own identity on 'Some Girls', but just incorporated a few new ones to go alongside their familiar sound.

However, with the exception of 'Tattoo You', for the Stones, after 'Some Girls', they were on a downhill slide.

Quote
71Tele

Quote
Glam Descendant
>Because most of them are devoid of elements that distinguish a "song' from a glorified riff with some words added.


You apparently know more about songwriting than Keith Richards -- perhaps we could all benefit from some lessons you might share w/him?

Query: by your criteria did Chuck Berry write any "real songs"?

Ridiculous comparison. Chuck Berry was a musical innovator and a gifted poet. You really want to compare Chuck Berry's sublime lyrics to Keith's variations of "baby' baby, baby"? Keith's songs on Main Offender are the same as most of his latter-day "songs". They are riff-heavy with throwaway lyrics and not much melody. Hardly "Ruby Tuesday", "You Got The Silver" or even "Before They Make Me Run". But if you like them you like them.

no melody at all... thru and thru zzzzzzzzzzzzz

What fool suggested Chuck Berry did not write real songs???? Listen to Nadine great stuff!

Good for you, but the musical feelings you describe is still in the song I mentioned (and no, it´s not a polished, overproduced song, is it? ). There is no way around that, whether you like Taylor or Wood. And remember, there is a guy called Keith Richards in the band, too. After all he was the most important guitarist in the Stones: <DandelionPowderman>

Since you ask: (and no, it´s not a polished, overproduced song, is it?)

To me it's polished and overproduced:

Awkward and sterile bluesguitar playing (with the exception of a few licks), nicely compensated by Jagger's exaggerated singing and harp playing. He "saves" the song imo.


You're right: Keith was the most important guitarist in the Stones.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-07-24 18:30 by Amsterdamned.