I see the point you are making kleermaker. You are right too, if you want to know who benefits just look at the money trail.

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ablett


America is supposed to be above this sort of treatment....

Human beings should be above killing one another for no reason. but their not are they.

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ablett
No, read what he states. Torture and holding people for as long as you like without charge is illegal and not acceptable.

America is supposed to be above this sort of treatment....

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ablett
America is supposed to be above this sort of treatment....

"Human beings should be above killing one another for no reason. but their not are they."
sweetcharmedlife


Does this mean sweetcharmedlife you are approving torture, have I understood your statement correctly?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-01-11 20:41 by bolexman.

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Roadster32
Innocent until proven guilty?

Let's get rid of the rest of the world!

Haven't you got any laws over there?

Sure we have laws over here but we are AT WAR - not pussyfooting around with shoplifters. Our erudite president finally figured this out which is why Gitmo is still open and he's expanded upon George Bush's terrorist eradication fly-bys in Pakistan.

Somebody has to be the grown-up.

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bolexman
-5-6-7-8-9

10-11-12-13-14

gee, we've reached page 2 and there's no mention of obama being a socialist/muslim that wasn't even born in the USA?!? i'm shocked! mickscarey must be asleep at the wheel...

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ineedadrink
gee, we've reached page 2 and there's no mention of obama being a socialist/muslim that wasn't even born in the USA?!? i'm shocked! mickscarey must be asleep at the wheel...

So you need to be born in your homeland to become president?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-01-11 21:13 by Amsterdamned.

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R

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Roadster32
Innocent until proven guilty?

Let's get rid of the rest of the world!

Haven't you got any laws over there?

Sure we have laws over here but we are AT WAR - not pussyfooting around with shoplifters. Our erudite president finally figured this out which is why Gitmo is still open and he's expanded upon George Bush's terrorist eradication fly-bys in Pakistan.

Somebody has to be the grown-up.

I'm a grown up, so does that satisfy your freudian desire?

And how come there's still no direct answer on whether torture and holding people without charge is acceptable? C'mon if you believe it, say it... Lets hear your argument on that. Because you are rewriting international law there.

Say what you will, but if you think the Europeans are not in on this your sadly mistaken. You can blame the Americans for the taking responsibility, but I'm sure the European governments are QUIETLY in the loop on everything that happens with this. Of course to appease their population they are either abstaining or turning their back on the topic. That is why they are called allies.

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R
Somebody has to be the grown-up.

EXACTLY!!!

Can't eat as much as I could vomit reading this BS.

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dewlover
"Don't you think it's a disgrace that Guantanamo Bay is still open?"


Well then, why don't you go down there and let the people in charge know that you want to invite the Islamofascists there to move to your home??

This is the exact attitude that is keeping Gitmo open, unfortunately. This is the attitude in Congress Obama has to put up with.

***********************************************************
"What I'm doing is a sexual thing. I dance and all dancing is a replacement for sex". - Mick Jagger

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bolexman

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R

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Roadster32
Innocent until proven guilty?

Let's get rid of the rest of the world!

Haven't you got any laws over there?

Sure we have laws over here but we are AT WAR - not pussyfooting around with shoplifters. Our erudite president finally figured this out which is why Gitmo is still open and he's expanded upon George Bush's terrorist eradication fly-bys in Pakistan.

Somebody has to be the grown-up.

I'm a grown up, so does that satisfy your freudian desire?

And how come there's still no direct answer on whether torture and holding people without charge is acceptable? C'mon if you believe it, say it... Lets hear your argument on that. Because you are rewriting international law there.

We are at war. Prisoners of war remain prisoners until the war is over - which it ain't, yet. Some folks think waterboarding is barbaric. Mohamed Atta might well concur especially after he spilled the beans on innumerable other terrorist plots. Forgive me if my ass doesn't bleed for that poor, tortured soul - or any of his heroic jihadi compatriots. Apparently my "moral compass" is askew.

Boy this is fun huh? I just don't get it. Good people like Honestman and Swiss get banned for stupid reasons. Yet political threads can be started at will.

[Posted by: Roadster32 ()
Date: January 11, 2011 21:01

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R
Somebody has to be the grown-up.

EXACTLY!!!

Can't eat as much as I could vomit reading this BS.

Well don't eat Keith please?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-01-11 21:12 by Amsterdamned.

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stateofshock

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dewlover
"Don't you think it's a disgrace that Guantanamo Bay is still open?"


Well then, why don't you go down there and let the people in charge know that you want to invite the Islamofascists there to move to your home??

This is the exact attitude that is keeping Gitmo open, unfortunately. This is the attitude in Congress Obama has to put up with.

Obama had one-party rule for two years. He could have done anything he wished.

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The Sicilian
Say what you will, but if you think the Europeans are not in on this your sadly mistaken. You can blame the Americans for the taking responsibility, but I'm sure the European governments are QUIETLY in the loop on everything that happens with this. Of course to appease their population they are either abstaining or turning their back on the topic. That is why they are called allies.

The Europeans have already said that the whole Afghanistan affair is a dead cow. They only don't say it that loudly and are offering symbolic support to keep the Americans and Obama happy. But they know very well that it's a lost case. As much as Iraq was Bush's blunder, Afghanistan is Obama's. He's following about the same policy as Bush. Maybe because he's afraid for the right, maybe because he does believe in the 'mission'. But that seems very improbable to me, because whatever you think of Obama, he's got brains and he knows just as well as I do that Afghanistan is another very expensive and bloodstained lost case. The question that you Americans have to ask yourselves is: who's profiting from this all. They say they are securing you, but when you're sick and you're not sufficiently assured you die anyway. The chance to die because of terrorism is almost nil, the chance to die because of being not sufficiently assured or because of weapons or because of poverty or because of traffic is so much higher. Just check out the average age of the wealthy and that of the poor. Well, what is terrorism?

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R

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bolexman

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R

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Roadster32
Innocent until proven guilty?

Let's get rid of the rest of the world!

Haven't you got any laws over there?

Sure we have laws over here but we are AT WAR - not pussyfooting around with shoplifters. Our erudite president finally figured this out which is why Gitmo is still open and he's expanded upon George Bush's terrorist eradication fly-bys in Pakistan.

Somebody has to be the grown-up.

I'm a grown up, so does that satisfy your freudian desire?

And how come there's still no direct answer on whether torture and holding people without charge is acceptable? C'mon if you believe it, say it... Lets hear your argument on that. Because you are rewriting international law there.

We are at war. Prisoners of war remain prisoners until the war is over - which it ain't, yet. Some folks think waterboarding is barbaric. Mohamed Atta might well concur especially after he spilled the beans on innumerable other terrorist plots. Forgive me if my ass doesn't bleed for that poor, tortured soul - or any of his heroic jihadi compatriots. Apparently my "moral compass" is askew.

You write a lot, but you don't write that you approve torture Yes or No. How come?

By the way you keep mentioning war- you are ignoring that by torturing prisoners, a terrible terrible precedent has been set for any future war. The US won't be able to complain if their troops are captured and tortured. It's an awful precedent, just awful. That's one reason why we established the Geneva Convention, to aim for better standards in time of war. Whether "the enemy" doesn't uphold it is doesn't matter- we should uphold it. Because that defines us as a civilise society. We should never weaken our resolve in these principles. We only betray ourselves.... But the U.S. thought they would be "clever" and set up Gitmo in a region that was difficult to apply international law.

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sweetcharmedlife
Boy this is fun huh? I just don't get it. Good people like Honestman and Swiss get banned for stupid reasons. Yet political threads can be started at will.

I actually hoped this would evolve into a thread about Bianca's role in the political world, her history of opinion, her willingness to go out on a limb, etc.

And as much as I miss HM and Swiss, and wish they were still here, I don't think they were banned for starting a thread, right? Wasn't it something they posted?

Reasonable people can disagree - but if creating a thread that is merely a link to an editorial written by *Bianca Jagger* can get one banned on a stones site - I mean, come on --

where people run with it is another story

Joe brought it to the point.

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bolexman
We are at war. Prisoners of war remain prisoners until the war is over - which it ain't, yet. Some folks think waterboarding is barbaric. Mohamed Atta might well concur especially after he spilled the beans on innumerable other terrorist plots. Forgive me if my ass doesn't bleed for that poor, tortured soul - or any of his heroic jihadi compatriots. Apparently my "moral compass" is askew.

You write a lot, but you don't write that you approve torture Yes or No. How come?

By the way you keep mentioning war- you are ignoring that by torturing prisoners, a terrible terrible precedent has been set for any future war. The US won't be able to complain if their troops are captured and tortured. It's an awful precedent, just awful. That's one reason why we established the Geneva Convention, to aim for better standards in time of war. Whether "the enemy" doesn't uphold it is doesn't matter- we should uphold it. Because that defines us as a civilise society. We should never weaken our resolve in these principles. We only betray ourselves.... But the U.S. thought they would be "clever" and set up Gitmo in a region that was difficult to apply international law.[/quote]

Does it not occur to you that the enemy with which the civilized world is currently at war is not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions? Are umpteen hundred beheading videos not ample proof of that? Our current enemies are being dealt with in the only way that they understand.

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R

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bolexman
We are at war. Prisoners of war remain prisoners until the war is over - which it ain't, yet. Some folks think waterboarding is barbaric. Mohamed Atta might well concur especially after he spilled the beans on innumerable other terrorist plots. Forgive me if my ass doesn't bleed for that poor, tortured soul - or any of his heroic jihadi compatriots. Apparently my "moral compass" is askew.

You write a lot, but you don't write that you approve torture Yes or No. How come?

By the way you keep mentioning war- you are ignoring that by torturing prisoners, a terrible terrible precedent has been set for any future war. The US won't be able to complain if their troops are captured and tortured. It's an awful precedent, just awful. That's one reason why we established the Geneva Convention, to aim for better standards in time of war. Whether "the enemy" doesn't uphold it is doesn't matter- we should uphold it. Because that defines us as a civilise society. We should never weaken our resolve in these principles. We only betray ourselves.... But the U.S. thought they would be "clever" and set up Gitmo in a region that was difficult to apply international law.

Does it not occur to you that the enemy with which the civilized world is currently at war is not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions? Are umpteen hundred beheading videos not ample proof of that? Our current enemies are being dealt with in the only way that they understand.[/quote]


Yup,it always takes three to tango. Money, Nationalism and Religion.
The human species is an ape.

Here comes the language everybody understands:







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-01-11 21:36 by Amsterdamned.

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R

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bolexman
We are at war. Prisoners of war remain prisoners until the war is over - which it ain't, yet. Some folks think waterboarding is barbaric. Mohamed Atta might well concur especially after he spilled the beans on innumerable other terrorist plots. Forgive me if my ass doesn't bleed for that poor, tortured soul - or any of his heroic jihadi compatriots. Apparently my "moral compass" is askew.

You write a lot, but you don't write that you approve torture Yes or No. How come?

By the way you keep mentioning war- you are ignoring that by torturing prisoners, a terrible terrible precedent has been set for any future war. The US won't be able to complain if their troops are captured and tortured. It's an awful precedent, just awful. That's one reason why we established the Geneva Convention, to aim for better standards in time of war. Whether "the enemy" doesn't uphold it is doesn't matter- we should uphold it. Because that defines us as a civilise society. We should never weaken our resolve in these principles. We only betray ourselves.... But the U.S. thought they would be "clever" and set up Gitmo in a region that was difficult to apply international law.

Does it not occur to you that the enemy with which the civilized world is currently at war is not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions? Are umpteen hundred beheading videos not ample proof of that? Our current enemies are being dealt with in the only way that they understand.[/quote] R


Yes it does occur to me they are not a signatory. That's why I wrote "Whether 'the enemy' doesn't uphold it is doesn't matter- we should uphold it. Because that defines us as a civilise society. We should never weaken our resolve in these principles. We only betray ourselves". You quoted my post so I don't know how you missed that.

And R you mysteriously say "Our current enemies are being dealt with in the only way that they understand". Does this mean you approve torture and holding people without charge?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-01-11 21:34 by bolexman.

this is an important discussion. i hope this thread doesn't disappear.

"wasn't even born in the USA"

Sure, i'll go along w/your position......

As soon as you come up with even a shred of evidence he was...(not holding my breath tho)


btw, i wonder if any of the bleeding hearts on this thread would still be against so-called "torture" (HA!) if they knew one of these mutants had info about imminent harm coming to one of their family members, and was refusing to talk about it...

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R
Obama had one-party rule for two years. He could have done anything he wished.

Checks and balances exist even when a single party dominates all three houses of lawmaking. Thank goodness.

Good thread HB,Bianca needs to come down to reality,there are people out there that hate us and will not stop at anything to achieve their goals.

"No dope smoking no beer sold after 12 o'clock"

dewlover your argument is incredibly poor.
For starters- they are not mutants they are people.
Also- you are trying to use an emotive argument, which means you are seeking an emotional answer.
Also- The scenario you talk about would never happen.

I actually think it is quite funny when this argument comes up. Have you seen the TV show "24" starring Kiefer Sutherland? Well- life isn't like that. Nobody is ever going to be in captivity and keeping info about imminent harm on your family members. That scenario will happen to absolutely nobody reading his right now. Because it is a fantasy.

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ROPENI
Good thread HB,Bianca needs to come down to reality,there are people out there that hate us and will not stop at anything to achieve their goals.

You gather evidence, and then you try them in a court of law. Enough assumptions please... If every inmate at Gitmo really does "hate us" and "will not stop at anything" then it should be very easy to gather evidence on laws they have broken, and prosecute them. That is how civilised society works, right?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-01-11 21:56 by bolexman.

Has anyone mentioned that these are enemy combatants, taken from the field during wartime?

These people do not have rights granted by the U.S. Constitution, so what does the Geneva Convention provide for these people?