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chevysales
I love these Track Talk threads.
Especially this song as summer of 71 at 16 was the best ever.
Wore this album out at my first Apt on the beach at $90 a month.
Thanks OP.
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TravelinManQuote
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TravelinMan
Regarding parts: anybody could have played the Berry rhythm.
Sure, but nobody plays it like Keith. This is 100% Keith.
Mathijs
It sounds like a pretty basic Berry rhythm lower in the mix than the other electric. Nothing profound, nothing unique.
Listen again. The timing and phrasing of the Berry boogie rhythm is fantastic -it gives the push and pull to the song, it what makes it swing. The open G guitar is dominant, and straightforward, while the Berry rhythm adds air to it. This rhythm is what gives the track its unique swing feel, it's what you make do the rooster. And that's typical for Keith -a million people play better guitar than him, but nobody can make it swing and roll so hard.
Mathijs
I’ll put it on the stereo later.
But, let’s not forget. You and others were skeptical at one point about the rhythm guitar on Bitch saying it’s too crunchy to be Taylor, the rhythm is unique etc. BUT then the extended take came out and it was blatantly obvious it was Taylor because by the time they got to the end of the song that would be faded out he was throwing in extended runs and licks.
This backs up two points I have always felt people—specifically on this site—overlook. 1) Taylor could and would play basic parts in the studio when it was called for 2) Taylor played great rhythm guitar when called for, that even the most listened ear can mistake for Richards.
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TravelinMan
But, let’s not forget. You and others were skeptical at one point about the rhythm guitar on Bitch saying it’s too crunchy to be Taylor, the rhythm is unique etc. BUT then the extended take came out and it was blatantly obvious it was Taylor because by the time they got to the end of the song that would be faded out he was throwing in extended runs and licks.
This backs up two points I have always felt people—specifically on this site—overlook. 1) Taylor could and would play basic parts in the studio when it was called for 2) Taylor played great rhythm guitar when called for, that even the most listened ear can mistake for Richards.
Now whether his parts on Brown Sugar made it to the album mix is irrelevant. He’s listed in the credits and it’s obvious he worked on the song with the band. Plus, he was the one that requested it to be played at Altamont, giving us that rare early version.
Side note, I believe Richards replaced Taylor’s Berry rhythms on Ya Ya’s because the guitar didn’t have the crunch he was looking for. Taylor rolled back his volume knob when playing rhythm live, causing the amp distortion to back off yielding a cleaner tone.
Actually I am still skeptical about Taylor on Bitch..I will not dispute that it is him, but is SO unlike anything Taylor has ever done or sounded before or after that it still bogles me.
About Taylor's sound on Ya Ya's -it's easy to fatten up a sound, or make it more distorted in post-production. You simply run the compressor/limiter harder, or you route the signal back to a small amp and re-record it.
It is my understanding that this is one (of the many) reasons the Brussels Affair boot sounds so good -they made both guitars sound more 'modern' by adding compression and gain in post production. At least to me it would explain why the guitars on the boot so sound much different than the often murky guitar sound of other 1973 boots.
Mathijs
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TravelinMan
But, let’s not forget. You and others were skeptical at one point about the rhythm guitar on Bitch saying it’s too crunchy to be Taylor, the rhythm is unique etc. BUT then the extended take came out and it was blatantly obvious it was Taylor because by the time they got to the end of the song that would be faded out he was throwing in extended runs and licks.
This backs up two points I have always felt people—specifically on this site—overlook. 1) Taylor could and would play basic parts in the studio when it was called for 2) Taylor played great rhythm guitar when called for, that even the most listened ear can mistake for Richards.
Now whether his parts on Brown Sugar made it to the album mix is irrelevant. He’s listed in the credits and it’s obvious he worked on the song with the band. Plus, he was the one that requested it to be played at Altamont, giving us that rare early version.
Side note, I believe Richards replaced Taylor’s Berry rhythms on Ya Ya’s because the guitar didn’t have the crunch he was looking for. Taylor rolled back his volume knob when playing rhythm live, causing the amp distortion to back off yielding a cleaner tone.
Actually I am still skeptical about Taylor on Bitch..I will not dispute that it is him, but is SO unlike anything Taylor has ever done or sounded before or after that it still bogles me.
About Taylor's sound on Ya Ya's -it's easy to fatten up a sound, or make it more distorted in post-production. You simply run the compressor/limiter harder, or you route the signal back to a small amp and re-record it.
It is my understanding that this is one (of the many) reasons the Brussels Affair boot sounds so good -they made both guitars sound more 'modern' by adding compression and gain in post production. At least to me it would explain why the guitars on the boot so sound much different than the often murky guitar sound of other 1973 boots.
Mathijs
I always found Bitch a strange case mainly because of Andy Johns quote below.
When we were doing Bitch, Keith was very late. Jagger and Mick Taylor had been playing the song without him and it didn't sound very good. I walked out of the kitchen and he was sitting on the floor with no shoes, eating a bowl of cereal. Suddenly he said, Oi, Andy! Give me that guitar. I handed him his clear Dan Armstrong Plexiglass guitar, he put it on, kicked the song up in tempo, and just put the vibe right on it. Instantly, it went from being this laconic mess into a real groove. And I thought, Wow. THAT'S what he does
This implies Keith came up with the rhythm riff and then got Taylor to play it while he did the lead part. Or least he upped the tempo and made suggestions for what Taylor should play. I think the latter is more likely as it doesn't seem Taylor ever played anything other than what he wanted.
Oddly Taylor is quoted in an interveiw from 1980 with Jas Obrecht saying he plays the lead on Bitch!
So a bit of a mystery. However if we agree Taylor plays rhythm on this tune it shows he can play raunchy Keith style riffs so would not be a surprise if he plays on other tunes we may allocate to Keith.
I always find the allocation of guitars and guitar parts a bit hit and miss. Particularly with guitar tones, loads of times what I thought was a definitive Tele or Strat tone turns out to be something totally different like a Starcaster
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DandelionPowderman
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
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mstmst
The key diff with BS versus jjf, gs, and to some degree the other warhorses is that this is the sound of the band standing in the same room playing at the same time -shit hot from the road. Most of the others were layered together piece by piece in the studio.
There's not much difference between all those tracks: the basics where recorded live with the entire band, than all the rest was overdubbed. In the case of BS only Richards' rhythm guitar, drums and bass where recorded live. Taylor is hardly audible on the finished version, and all the rest (half a dozen guitar tracks by Richards, sax, vocals) is overdubbed later in London.
Mathijs
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Tumlin73
The most beautiful rock n roll song ever.
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DandelionPowderman
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
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DandelionPowderman
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
Here is the quote:
Jas: Who did the leads in “Bitch”?
Mick: I did that.
And interveiw:
[jasobrecht.substack.com]
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slew
One of the best songs ever now play it live again!!!!!
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DandelionPowderman
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
Here is the quote:
Jas: Who did the leads in “Bitch”?
Mick: I did that.
And interveiw:
[jasobrecht.substack.com]
He’s probably thinking of the London Underground version, which according to an interview of that time he wasn’t pleased with.
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DandelionPowderman
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
Here is the quote:
Jas: Who did the leads in “Bitch”?
Mick: I did that.
And interveiw:
[jasobrecht.substack.com]
He’s probably thinking of the London Underground version, which according to an interview of that time he wasn’t pleased with.
Ah good point! What didn't he like, his solo or the version?
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hbwriter
what we hear in "gimme shelter"
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MononoM
i just hope they gonna play it again someday... it got banned from the setlist because of silly reasons imo..
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MononoM
i just hope they gonna play it again someday... it got banned from the setlist because of silly reasons imo..
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thomashanck
hi,
i heard a lot of takes in between but this one is new to me,
begins very experimental, solo is special :-)
[www.youtube.com]
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thomashanck
hi,
i heard a lot of takes in between but this one is new to me,
begins very experimental, solo is special :-)
[www.youtube.com]
Now it's clear to me why Keith replaced MT's guitar. What was he thinking. Playing all over the thing.