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Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
ElectricBoogaloo
()
Date: October 23, 2022 18:34
Quote
chevysales
I love these Track Talk threads.
Especially this song as summer of 71 at 16 was the best ever.
Wore this album out at my first Apt on the beach at $90 a month.
Thanks OP.
I am really enjoying these track talks as well. I am learning a lot of stuff that I did not know before, as well as getting input from all of the knowledgeable IORR people.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
FP
()
Date: November 12, 2022 21:26
Quote
TravelinManQuote
MathijsQuote
TravelinManQuote
MathijsQuote
TravelinMan
Regarding parts: anybody could have played the Berry rhythm.
Sure, but nobody plays it like Keith. This is 100% Keith.
Mathijs
It sounds like a pretty basic Berry rhythm lower in the mix than the other electric. Nothing profound, nothing unique.
Listen again. The timing and phrasing of the Berry boogie rhythm is fantastic -it gives the push and pull to the song, it what makes it swing. The open G guitar is dominant, and straightforward, while the Berry rhythm adds air to it. This rhythm is what gives the track its unique swing feel, it's what you make do the rooster. And that's typical for Keith -a million people play better guitar than him, but nobody can make it swing and roll so hard.
Mathijs
I’ll put it on the stereo later.
But, let’s not forget. You and others were skeptical at one point about the rhythm guitar on Bitch saying it’s too crunchy to be Taylor, the rhythm is unique etc. BUT then the extended take came out and it was blatantly obvious it was Taylor because by the time they got to the end of the song that would be faded out he was throwing in extended runs and licks.
This backs up two points I have always felt people—specifically on this site—overlook. 1) Taylor could and would play basic parts in the studio when it was called for 2) Taylor played great rhythm guitar when called for, that even the most listened ear can mistake for Richards.
I agree with this. Off the top of my head Taylor is credited and generally accepted to have played electric rhythm on:
B*tch
Shake Your Hips
Live With Me
Star Star
And my fav his work on Street Fighting Man from Yas Yas.
As well as acoustic rhythm on Sweet Virginia, Wild Horses, Angie.
Also he used Open G tuning for slide work as well as some hybrid tunings so he didn't purely stick to standard.
I don't know about anyone else but Live With Me & SFM in particular get my foot tapping with a killer tone.
The idea Taylor couldn't play effective rhythm and didn't gel with Keith is ridiculous and a myth best put to bed. Sometimes Keith used his producers ear to remove parts he didn't think worked but he did this with other players and most likely with his own ideas which didn't work.
Taylor also said in an interveiw (on his old fan site) he used to play riffs together with Keith, using Can't You Hear Me Knocking as an example, to fatten them up.
I don't find it a stretch that he would double up a Keith part, either in standard or open G in these sessions. I suspect it became less likely as his career with the Stones progressed as MT seemed to end up frustrating Keith (and Jimmy Miller, Glyn Johns) by doodling during takes and adding superfluous overdubs, most likely as he got progressively bored with the band and may due to increased drug use.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-11-12 21:28 by FP.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: November 12, 2022 23:07
IMO Taylor was a good rhythm player, examples enough out there. But his noodling ego was too big. Richards was a splendid rhythm player, but sometimes his rhythm guitar ego was too big. These musical ego fuelled abilities made them the best duo in rock history. Strange things can happen in music. Just my 2 cents.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
FP
()
Date: November 13, 2022 19:49
Quote
MathijsQuote
TravelinMan
But, let’s not forget. You and others were skeptical at one point about the rhythm guitar on Bitch saying it’s too crunchy to be Taylor, the rhythm is unique etc. BUT then the extended take came out and it was blatantly obvious it was Taylor because by the time they got to the end of the song that would be faded out he was throwing in extended runs and licks.
This backs up two points I have always felt people—specifically on this site—overlook. 1) Taylor could and would play basic parts in the studio when it was called for 2) Taylor played great rhythm guitar when called for, that even the most listened ear can mistake for Richards.
Now whether his parts on Brown Sugar made it to the album mix is irrelevant. He’s listed in the credits and it’s obvious he worked on the song with the band. Plus, he was the one that requested it to be played at Altamont, giving us that rare early version.
Side note, I believe Richards replaced Taylor’s Berry rhythms on Ya Ya’s because the guitar didn’t have the crunch he was looking for. Taylor rolled back his volume knob when playing rhythm live, causing the amp distortion to back off yielding a cleaner tone.
Actually I am still skeptical about Taylor on Bitch..I will not dispute that it is him, but is SO unlike anything Taylor has ever done or sounded before or after that it still bogles me.
About Taylor's sound on Ya Ya's -it's easy to fatten up a sound, or make it more distorted in post-production. You simply run the compressor/limiter harder, or you route the signal back to a small amp and re-record it.
It is my understanding that this is one (of the many) reasons the Brussels Affair boot sounds so good -they made both guitars sound more 'modern' by adding compression and gain in post production. At least to me it would explain why the guitars on the boot so sound much different than the often murky guitar sound of other 1973 boots.
Mathijs
I always found Bitch a strange case mainly because of Andy Johns quote below.
When we were doing Bitch, Keith was very late. Jagger and Mick Taylor had been playing the song without him and it didn't sound very good. I walked out of the kitchen and he was sitting on the floor with no shoes, eating a bowl of cereal. Suddenly he said, Oi, Andy! Give me that guitar. I handed him his clear Dan Armstrong Plexiglass guitar, he put it on, kicked the song up in tempo, and just put the vibe right on it. Instantly, it went from being this laconic mess into a real groove. And I thought, Wow. THAT'S what he does
This implies Keith came up with the rhythm riff and then got Taylor to play it while he did the lead part. Or least he upped the tempo and made suggestions for what Taylor should play. I think the latter is more likely as it doesn't seem Taylor ever played anything other than what he wanted.
Oddly Taylor is quoted in an interveiw from 1980 with Jas Obrecht saying he plays the lead on Bitch!
So a bit of a mystery. However if we agree Taylor plays rhythm on this tune it shows he can play raunchy Keith style riffs so would not be a surprise if he plays on other tunes we may allocate to Keith.
I always find the allocation of guitars and guitar parts a bit hit and miss. Particularly with guitar tones, loads of times what I thought was a definitive Tele or Strat tone turns out to be something totally different like a Starcaster
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: November 13, 2022 19:52
Quote
FPQuote
MathijsQuote
TravelinMan
But, let’s not forget. You and others were skeptical at one point about the rhythm guitar on Bitch saying it’s too crunchy to be Taylor, the rhythm is unique etc. BUT then the extended take came out and it was blatantly obvious it was Taylor because by the time they got to the end of the song that would be faded out he was throwing in extended runs and licks.
This backs up two points I have always felt people—specifically on this site—overlook. 1) Taylor could and would play basic parts in the studio when it was called for 2) Taylor played great rhythm guitar when called for, that even the most listened ear can mistake for Richards.
Now whether his parts on Brown Sugar made it to the album mix is irrelevant. He’s listed in the credits and it’s obvious he worked on the song with the band. Plus, he was the one that requested it to be played at Altamont, giving us that rare early version.
Side note, I believe Richards replaced Taylor’s Berry rhythms on Ya Ya’s because the guitar didn’t have the crunch he was looking for. Taylor rolled back his volume knob when playing rhythm live, causing the amp distortion to back off yielding a cleaner tone.
Actually I am still skeptical about Taylor on Bitch..I will not dispute that it is him, but is SO unlike anything Taylor has ever done or sounded before or after that it still bogles me.
About Taylor's sound on Ya Ya's -it's easy to fatten up a sound, or make it more distorted in post-production. You simply run the compressor/limiter harder, or you route the signal back to a small amp and re-record it.
It is my understanding that this is one (of the many) reasons the Brussels Affair boot sounds so good -they made both guitars sound more 'modern' by adding compression and gain in post production. At least to me it would explain why the guitars on the boot so sound much different than the often murky guitar sound of other 1973 boots.
Mathijs
I always found Bitch a strange case mainly because of Andy Johns quote below.
When we were doing Bitch, Keith was very late. Jagger and Mick Taylor had been playing the song without him and it didn't sound very good. I walked out of the kitchen and he was sitting on the floor with no shoes, eating a bowl of cereal. Suddenly he said, Oi, Andy! Give me that guitar. I handed him his clear Dan Armstrong Plexiglass guitar, he put it on, kicked the song up in tempo, and just put the vibe right on it. Instantly, it went from being this laconic mess into a real groove. And I thought, Wow. THAT'S what he does
This implies Keith came up with the rhythm riff and then got Taylor to play it while he did the lead part. Or least he upped the tempo and made suggestions for what Taylor should play. I think the latter is more likely as it doesn't seem Taylor ever played anything other than what he wanted.
Oddly Taylor is quoted in an interveiw from 1980 with Jas Obrecht saying he plays the lead on Bitch!
So a bit of a mystery. However if we agree Taylor plays rhythm on this tune it shows he can play raunchy Keith style riffs so would not be a surprise if he plays on other tunes we may allocate to Keith.
I always find the allocation of guitars and guitar parts a bit hit and miss. Particularly with guitar tones, loads of times what I thought was a definitive Tele or Strat tone turns out to be something totally different like a Starcaster
Could very well be that Andy John's quote is based on the extended Bitch version.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 13, 2022 20:07
<Oddly Taylor is quoted in an interveiw from 1980 with Jas Obrecht saying he plays the lead on Bitch!>
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-11-13 20:09 by DandelionPowderman.
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-11-13 20:09 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
FP
()
Date: November 13, 2022 20:50
Quote
DandelionPowderman
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
Here is the quote:
Jas: Who did the leads in “Bitch”?
Mick: I did that.
And interveiw:
[jasobrecht.substack.com]
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
FP
()
Date: November 13, 2022 21:02
Quote
MathijsQuote
mstmst
The key diff with BS versus jjf, gs, and to some degree the other warhorses is that this is the sound of the band standing in the same room playing at the same time -shit hot from the road. Most of the others were layered together piece by piece in the studio.
There's not much difference between all those tracks: the basics where recorded live with the entire band, than all the rest was overdubbed. In the case of BS only Richards' rhythm guitar, drums and bass where recorded live. Taylor is hardly audible on the finished version, and all the rest (half a dozen guitar tracks by Richards, sax, vocals) is overdubbed later in London.
Mathijs
I just noticed this quote Mathijs, what is the evidence only Richards' rhythm guitar, drums and bass were recorded live at the Muscle Shoals session please?
Versions listed as early takes on Youtube have two guitars on them and I always assumed everyone played together for the basic track? Seems odd they would tell Taylor to go and get some crisps while they recorded this
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-11-13 21:03 by FP.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
FP
()
Date: November 13, 2022 21:04
Someone in one of the numerous threads related to Brown Sugar says Taylor only plays for the first 30 seconds of the tune, however can't find the quote and interested who it was?
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
Tumlin73
()
Date: November 13, 2022 22:34
The most beautiful rock n roll song ever.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: November 13, 2022 23:00
.......................................... Photo Dominique Tarle
ROCKMAN
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: November 14, 2022 01:54
Quote
Tumlin73
The most beautiful rock n roll song ever.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
SomeGuy
()
Date: November 14, 2022 17:16
Quote
DandelionPowderman
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
That's exactly what I've always thought about that riff (of 'Bitch').
Perhaps something that, say, Ritchie Blackmore would have played.
Do we know who came up with it? Mick (J.) maybe?
Sort of off topic but I'd be interested to know.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-11-14 17:49 by SomeGuy.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
TravelinMan
()
Date: November 14, 2022 23:42
Quote
FPQuote
DandelionPowderman
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
Here is the quote:
Jas: Who did the leads in “Bitch”?
Mick: I did that.
And interveiw:
[jasobrecht.substack.com]
He’s probably thinking of the London Underground version, which according to an interview of that time he wasn’t pleased with.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-11-14 23:43 by TravelinMan.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
bv
()
Date: November 15, 2022 11:54
Quote
slew
One of the best songs ever now play it live again!!!!!
Please do NOT start that discussion here.
Bjornulf
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
FP
()
Date: November 15, 2022 17:59
Quote
TravelinManQuote
FPQuote
DandelionPowderman
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
Here is the quote:
Jas: Who did the leads in “Bitch”?
Mick: I did that.
And interveiw:
[jasobrecht.substack.com]
He’s probably thinking of the London Underground version, which according to an interview of that time he wasn’t pleased with.
Ah good point! What didn't he like, his solo or the version?
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
FP
()
Date: November 15, 2022 18:00
After all this debate my final word is perhaps this is a case of occam's razor, Keith plays the left hand guitar, lead fills and acoustic, Taylor plays right hand guitar job done...
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
TravelinMan
()
Date: November 15, 2022 23:39
Quote
FPQuote
TravelinManQuote
FPQuote
DandelionPowderman
He probably said that he played the leading riff.
It's a rather unique riff in the Stones cannon, not really a Keith-sounding riff, imo.
Here is the quote:
Jas: Who did the leads in “Bitch”?
Mick: I did that.
And interveiw:
[jasobrecht.substack.com]
He’s probably thinking of the London Underground version, which according to an interview of that time he wasn’t pleased with.
Ah good point! What didn't he like, his solo or the version?
He said they used a warm-up run-through take on that song and he felt his performance wasn't up to his standards.
I really like Layla from that album.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
Taylor1
()
Date: November 16, 2022 01:53
I am not knowledgeable like Mathijs about guitars, but why does Taylor’s guitar on the alternate take Brown Sugar with his solos play those little runs right before Jagger shouts “Brown Sugar, how come you taste so good”, which are also played by the guitar on the released version, supposedly by Keith
brown sugar - take i never heard
Posted by:
thomashanck
()
Date: December 14, 2022 18:57
hi,
i heard a lot of takes in between but this one is new to me,
begins very experimental, solo is special :-)
[www.youtube.com]
i heard a lot of takes in between but this one is new to me,
begins very experimental, solo is special :-)
[www.youtube.com]
Re: brown sugar - take i never heard
Posted by:
hbwriter
()
Date: December 15, 2022 00:04
what we hear in "gimme shelter"
Re: brown sugar - take i never heard
Posted by:
CindyC
()
Date: December 15, 2022 00:55
I love this version. I call it "Brown Sugar with Clicking", but there's also a great guitar line that is prominent on this version that's pretty excellent.
Thanks for posting it, haven't heard it in a few years.
Wasn't looking too good, but I was feeling real well.
Thanks for posting it, haven't heard it in a few years.
Wasn't looking too good, but I was feeling real well.
Re: brown sugar - take i never heard
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: December 15, 2022 07:11
Quote
hbwriter
what we hear in "gimme shelter"
Except for the vocals.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: December 16, 2022 00:56
Quote
MononoM
i just hope they gonna play it again someday... it got banned from the setlist because of silly reasons imo..
In order to keep this Track Talk thread open, please avoid discussing that question here!
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
bv
()
Date: December 16, 2022 12:53
Quote
MononoM
i just hope they gonna play it again someday... it got banned from the setlist because of silly reasons imo..
This is a political statement and you know it.
Also I told this so many times here on IORR, even on this very page Nov 15.
Please take political discussion other places.
Brown Sugar political posts will be deleted (Posted Oct 2, 2021 - see "Forum links of interest")
Bjornulf
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-12-16 12:56 by bv.
Re: brown sugar - take i never heard
Posted by:
StonedRambler
()
Date: December 16, 2022 13:10
Quote
thomashanck
hi,
i heard a lot of takes in between but this one is new to me,
begins very experimental, solo is special :-)
[www.youtube.com]
Now it's clear to me why Keith replaced MT's guitar. What was he thinking. Playing all over the thing.
Re: brown sugar - take i never heard
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: December 16, 2022 16:17
Quote
StonedRamblerQuote
thomashanck
hi,
i heard a lot of takes in between but this one is new to me,
begins very experimental, solo is special :-)
[www.youtube.com]
Now it's clear to me why Keith replaced MT's guitar. What was he thinking. Playing all over the thing.
Taylor is not on this version.
Mathijs
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
Natlanta
()
Date: April 27, 2023 18:26
[www.instagram.com]
… dance little sister
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-04-27 18:30 by Natlanta.
… dance little sister
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-04-27 18:30 by Natlanta.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: April 27, 2023 18:55
If you were to create a 'stones by numbers' track, as the one to pattern the archetypal stones song...one that all pretenders could try to emulate this would be it.
It has everything just inside of 4 minutes... controversy, debauchery, killer riff, audience call and response (I said yeah I said yeah I said yeah I said...WOOOOO!), and bobby keys.
It's not my favourite track but it's up there.
This is a single that sells an album.
It has everything just inside of 4 minutes... controversy, debauchery, killer riff, audience call and response (I said yeah I said yeah I said yeah I said...WOOOOO!), and bobby keys.
It's not my favourite track but it's up there.
This is a single that sells an album.
Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by:
VoodooLounge13
()
Date: April 27, 2023 19:03
Proving once again that the Stones are timeless, multi-generational, cross-cultural RNR icons, legends, and royalty..........
But then...we ALL already KNOW that!!!
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