>> the moralistic attitude of Keith towards Brian's drug abuse <<

... i guess you mean not liking a co-worker rendering himself unfit to function?
to me that's not the same as a "moralistic attitude toward [someone's] drug abuse".

the Stones exhibited more patience with Keith in the 70s than they had with Brian in the 60s,
partly because Keith was contributing actively & crucially, even if it was "on Keith time" -
and surely also because of what had happened to Brian. love & light to him



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-11-04 14:00 by with sssoul.

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Silver Dagger
Are their any tapes of the Stones playing live in the 60s without Brian?

No.

In fact apart from a line/radio sourced recording of their final US show with him in Honolulu in 1966, there isnt even a single circulating recording of an American concert WITH Brian.

bewildering.

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with sssoul
>> the moralistic attitude of Keith towards Brian's drug abuse <<

... i guess you mean not liking a co-worker rendering himself unfit to function?
to me that's not the same as a "moralistic attitude toward [someone's] drug abuse".

Well, my point was that of even for Keith - the almighty, omnipotent rock and roll god - the use of good old of mirror would be not a bad idea at all. Thanks to his drug abuse, he wasn't the easiest co-worker at all during the seventies, unless we consider people like Bill Wyman or Mick Jagger bull-shitters. Oh yeah, he "never had problems with the drugs, but policemen." That's our gospel, right. But before anyome starts to talk about Éxile and learning to skate while on heroin, I am am more than awere that the results the Stones achieved during Keith's "junkie times" were surely incredible, and the band did absolutely right with its policy of patience with Keith's habits. But despite the overt 'success', and the policy of treating Keith with silky gloves, it has also the effect of making the function of the band difficult at times. This a theme Keith is no explicit about at all while giving verdicts to Brian Jones. But it is so easy to blame Brian Jones, and treat Keith Richards as a sort of super-human, to whom even the hardest drugs don't affect, and Keith himself seems to be a profet of this religion, A part of official Stones folklore, right?

- Doxa

... i guess that holds up if one assumes that what someone says out loud in public is the sum total of what they think, feel, etc.
of course Keith has invented an image that he presents in public,
and of course what his deep feelings are, and/or what they were in July 1969,
is a completely different matter that we don't know anything about.

we also don't know anything about his private self-awareness.
it's pretty standard for people (Stones included) to have some "blind spots" about themselves;
and sure, one can speculate about where the Stones' "blind spots" might be, if one finds that amusing;
but we don't know.

(sorry, Doxa - that was a response to a lot of different posts on this thread,
not just to your last one. in relation to what you just wrote:
i can have opinions about certain things Keith has said, but that doesn't mean i can assess or judge
his deep feelings, his private self-awareness or his "blind spots". have some popcorn.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-11-04 19:29 by with sssoul.

with sssoul, I totally agree with you.

- Doxa

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Gazza

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Silver Dagger
Are their any tapes of the Stones playing live in the 60s without Brian?

No.

In fact apart from a line/radio sourced recording of their final US show with him in Honolulu in 1966, there isnt even a single circulating recording of an American concert WITH Brian.

bewildering.

There are plenty of European boots with Brian though.

Dunno about "plenty"..its barely enough to count on two hands (I'm excluding TV appearances) - and most of the shows were Brian went AWOL were in the US.

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StonesBlake
It wasn't just Mick and Keith who hated Brian. I believe Bob Dylan has some quotes about Brian being a jerk and a horrible person.

Well, Bob thought highly enough of Brian to pay for his casket. And please provide those quotes from Bob because I've never read any quotes from him dissing Brian.

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Mathijs
The fact that Brian was deeply disliked by just about anyone who knew him doesn't help either.

There you go again Mathijs with your blatant distortion of the truth about Brian Jones. Many people who knew Brian liked him and still say nice things about him. Here are a list of Brian's peers who have remembered him fondly over the years:

a.)George Harrison- tributed Brian upon his death
b.)Pete Townshend- claimed recently that he wants to write a song about Brian, saying that he was one of his best friends
c.)Paul McCartney- was fond of Brian in his recent autobiography
d.)Eric Burdon- lauded Brian in his autobiography, dubbing him the "late, great Brian Jones"
e.)Jimi Hendrix- dedicated a song for Brian during the Dick Cavett Show, shortly after his death in 1969
f.)Bob Dylan- paid for Brian's casket, certainly not the act of somebody who despised the latter
g.)Dave Davies- called Brian a great friend
h.)etc.etc.etc.

The only people who have consistently bashed Brian have been Mick, Keith, and their friends/underlings/lackeys. Get you facts straight before you spout such drivel.

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skipstone
You can't condemn Keith for how he feels about Brian - that is something that is beyond any of us, what they all went through. There is way more to it than just what is spoken about in magazines etc...and we can sit back and say Keith is an ass for saying what he says about Brian but it's not our life, our business, our history. It's his. So STFU.

If Keith calls Brian an '@#$%&', 'passenger', and 'Cheltenham c#nt', I have the right to judge Keith Richards as I see fit. The way I see it, he's pissing on a dead man's legacy and memory. The man's got no class.

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neptune

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Mathijs
The fact that Brian was deeply disliked by just about anyone who knew him doesn't help either.

There you go again Mathijs with your blatant distortion of the truth about Brian Jones. Many people who knew Brian liked him and still say nice things about him. Here are a list of Brian's peers who have remembered him fondly over the years:

a.)George Harrison- tributed Brian upon his death
b.)Pete Townshend- claimed recently that he wants to write a song about Brian, saying that he was one of his best friends
c.)Paul McCartney- was fond of Brian in his recent autobiography
d.)Eric Burdon- lauded Brian in his autobiography, dubbing him the "late, great Brian Jones"
e.)Jimi Hendrix- dedicated a song for Brian during the Dick Cavett Show, shortly after his death in 1969
f.)Bob Dylan- paid for Brian's casket, certainly not the act of somebody who despised the latter
g.)Dave Davies- called Brian a great friend
h.)etc.etc.etc.

The only people who have consistently bashed Brian have been Mick, Keith, and their friends/underlings/lackeys. Get you facts straight before you spout such drivel.

All these people weren't friends, they were distant colleagues whom mainly knew Brian at the beginning (Dylan, Burdon, Dave Davies, Harrison) or in the end as a drugs buddy like Hendrix. Every book you read about the Stones from '65 to '69 mention the same thing about Brian -a disturbed, mentally ill person who clearly lost it due to paranoia and drugs. All of the Stones have stated in one way or the other that Brian was mentally ill, as well as many people around the Stones –just read Andrew Oldhams two books with plenty of remarks from people in the music business

Mathijs

Well Brian Jones was only 26 or 27 when he died so there was always a chance he could have turned himself around.

I think Keith's persistence in speaking ill of someone who has been dead nearly 40 years and not here to defend himself is pretty piss poor and unnecesary.

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terraplane
Well Brian Jones was only 26 or 27 when he died so there was always a chance he could have turned himself around.

I think Keith's persistence in speaking ill of someone who has been dead nearly 40 years and not here to defend himself is pretty piss poor and unnecesary.

Tony Sanchez (up&down with the RS )said Brian was finally on his way getting on the rails again,but many people took advantage of his poor mental condition..
Charlie Watts was in tears when Brian died,Bill looked very sad at the funeral...
I 've seen an interview with Keith talking about Brian.(I cannot remember were,in the 9-tees )
Keith was in tears almost.
I prefer a human point of view on this topic.

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terraplane

I think Keith's persistence in speaking ill of someone who has been dead nearly 40 years and not here to defend himself is pretty piss poor and unnecesary.

I agree, regardless of what went down between them, to continually talk so badly of him for so long is very sad imo.

It does make me wonder just how bad was Brian to be around though, was he that bad that it's made people feel the need to talk badly about him for decades!?

Anyway, I don't really care what they are/were like as people, I dig them mostly because of their music. Most of that is super hot regardless of whether they were cu**s or not!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-11-05 17:41 by His Majesty.

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terraplane
Well Brian Jones was only 26 or 27 when he died so there was always a chance he could have turned himself around.

I think Keith's persistence in speaking ill of someone who has been dead nearly 40 years and not here to defend himself is pretty piss poor and unnecesary.

yep. Brian had left the band 3 weeks before he died and his only reported comment on the split was the tactful 'musical differences', 'amicable parting' official party line at the time. There's two sides to every story and by default one of them hasnt been heard, so its pretty easy to just pay lip service to the 'Brian was an @#$%&' line which has been the norm for almost 4 decades.

its somewhat sad and ironic that four decades after his death Brian comes in for much more stinging personal abuse from Keith than a still-breathing Allen Klein ever did. Its a pretty desperate way of trying to stay 'quoteworthy'.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-11-05 18:17 by Gazza.

mick gave a short acknowledgement to brian at the rock and roll HOF induction many years ago. I was a bit heartened by that; otherwise they done disappeared him; for whatever reasons keith might have that i'm not privvy to inside of his own feelings and psyche, i will NEVER forget and ALWAYS be grateful for Brian for being the magical chemistry, as much as any other stone imo, for those first seven or eight classic studio albums. (and tours racking up hundreds of gigs). keith or whomever: they will NEVER, NO ONE will EVER erase that contribution and spirit. all blessings to keith in any case. and all gratidude to Brian, who really did march to the beat of different drummer so to speak.
a clever multi-instrumentalist and visionary who very frequently offered special grace notes (on various instruments) all over some of the Stones finest tracks, making them more original, classic and personal.
It ain't my business who attends whatever memorials for whatever reasons so this is just offered as a personal opinion and a response to thinking about brian's contributions to the little band he worked so hard to put together.

Nicely put Beelyboy!

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neptune

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StonesBlake
It wasn't just Mick and Keith who hated Brian. I believe Bob Dylan has some quotes about Brian being a jerk and a horrible person.

Well, Bob thought highly enough of Brian to pay for his casket. And please provide those quotes from Bob because I've never read any quotes from him dissing Brian.

I'll have to dig up the quote and book. But I remember a story where Bob was hanging out with Brian and tried to make Brian cry just for the sake of it. He said he tired of Brian and his mood swings. I think initially Bob and Brian got along fine. Blonde on Blonde is named after him afterall. But later apparently things turned sour.

I'll have to check and find the exact quote. Maybe someone can shed light on this?

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neptune

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StonesBlake
It wasn't just Mick and Keith who hated Brian. I believe Bob Dylan has some quotes about Brian being a jerk and a horrible person.

Well, Bob thought highly enough of Brian to pay for his casket. And please provide those quotes from Bob because I've never read any quotes from him dissing Brian.

Bob's greeting to Brian around 1966 or so was "Hi Brian - how's your paranoia?" Never heard of him engaging in any remarks to the degree that Blake has suggested though.

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StonesBlake
Blonde on Blonde is named after him afterall.

There's absolutely nothing to substantiate that.

The Stones probably were more patient with Keith because of his special relationship with both Charlie and Mick - and also because in the 70s they were more established and could afford to be patient and work on Keith's time.

They also probably knew they owed their comfort partly because of Keith's (and Mick too, don't get me wrong) hard work in the studio in the 60s and early 70s.

Don't forget also - there were rumors that they were looking for a replacement for Keith in the 70s too.

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Gazza

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StonesBlake
Blonde on Blonde is named after him afterall.

There's absolutely nothing to substantiate that.

I have read that Brian Jones believed that Dylan's Ballad Of A Thin Man had been be written about him ["Something going on here but you don't know what it is do you Mr.Jones"]

There was also a story that Brian had convinced Keith that Like A Rolling Stone had been written as a jab at the Stones. Apparently, Keith and Brian went to Dylan's London Hotel to confront him about it. Seems a bit farfetched though.

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Mathijs
All these people weren't friends, they were distant colleagues whom mainly knew Brian at the beginning (Dylan, Burdon, Dave Davies, Harrison) or in the end as a drugs buddy like Hendrix. Every book you read about the Stones from '65 to '69 mention the same thing about Brian -a disturbed, mentally ill person who clearly lost it due to paranoia and drugs. All of the Stones have stated in one way or the other that Brian was mentally ill, as well as many people around the Stones –just read Andrew Oldhams two books with plenty of remarks from people in the music business.

All the people I listed above have themselves claimed that they were friends of Brian Jones. So you claim that Harrison, Townshend, McCartney, Burden, etc. were lying when they have stated they were friends of Brian? Also, do you consider ALO, a man who personally loathed Brian, an impartial source? Really? ALO would be the last person I would turn to for unfiltered, unbiased info on BJ.

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Gazza
yep. Brian had left the band 3 weeks before he died and his only reported comment on the split was the tactful 'musical differences', 'amicable parting' official party line at the time. There's two sides to every story and by default one of them hasnt been heard, so its pretty easy to just pay lip service to the 'Brian was an @#$%&' line which has been the norm for almost 4 decades.

its somewhat sad and ironic that four decades after his death Brian comes in for much more stinging personal abuse from Keith than a still-breathing Allen Klein ever did. Its a pretty desperate way of trying to stay 'quoteworthy'.

Amen to that.

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terraplane
I have read that Brian Jones believed that Dylan's Ballad Of A Thin Man had been be written about him ["Something going on here but you don't know what it is do you Mr.Jones"]

He did believe that, and I've read comments on Stones forums by people who think it was written about Brian.

It's a bit simplistic though to assume that just because a character in a song written in the surrealist, cryptic style that Dylan is using in that song is called "Mr Jones" (which is a very common name), it's automatically about a real person with THAT name.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-11-06 01:15 by Gazza.

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Gazza

It's a bit simplistic though to assume that just because a character in a song written in the surrealist, cryptic style that Dylan is using in that song is called "Mr Jones" (which is a very common name), it's automatically about a real person with THAT name.

Well for my part I don't believe Dylan wrote it about Brian. It seems unlikely that he would launch a scathing personal attack in such a public way against somebody who by all accounts seemed a good friend. The "I'm Not There" movie suggests Dylan wrote that track about a journo. This seems the most plausible considering the opening line "You walk into the room with your pencil in your hand"

Here are what some had to say about Brian

There was nothing the matter with him that a little extra love wouldn't have cured
George Harrison

I hope he becomes blessed. I hope he is finding peace..I really want him to
Mick Jagger

I hope you went out
Smiling
Like a child
Into the cool remnant
Of a dream
Jim Morrison

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terraplane

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Gazza

It's a bit simplistic though to assume that just because a character in a song written in the surrealist, cryptic style that Dylan is using in that song is called "Mr Jones" (which is a very common name), it's automatically about a real person with THAT name.

Well for my part I don't believe Dylan wrote it about Brian. It seems unlikely that he would launch a scathing personal attack in such a public way against somebody who by all accounts seemed a good friend. The "I'm Not There" movie suggests Dylan wrote that track about a journo. This seems the most plausible considering the opening line "You walk into the room with your pencil in your hand"

I think you're on the right track. Its basically a tongue in cheek dig at 'writers and critics' of every hue who aren't hip to what's going on around them - and maybe to what's going on with the changes in Bob's career too. Maybe a precursor to "Positively 4th Street" which was written shortly afterwards.

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gwen
The Stones probably were more patient with Keith because of his special relationship with both Charlie and Mick - and also because in the 70s they were more established and could afford to be patient and work on Keith's time

The Stones were more patient with Keith because until about '77 he wrote 80% of their material. Until '77 Keith IS the Stones.

Mathijs

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All the people I listed above have themselves claimed that they were friends of Brian Jones. So you claim that Harrison, Townshend, McCartney, Burden, etc. were lying when they have stated they were friends of Brian? Also, do you consider ALO, a man who personally loathed Brian, an impartial source? Really? ALO would be the last person I would turn to for unfiltered, unbiased info on BJ.

You must see these kind of friendships in a different light. These people were all musicians on the road and in the studio for 90% of their time. They would socialize in London clubs, meet at gigs or in studio's, but to say that they were real friends -letting each other in to their personal lives - not at all.

Oldham's books are a very good source. If you would read them you would find out they are actually compiled by quotes and stories by many different people from the music bizz. Oldham mostly talks about his own demons, but through the words of all the other contributors you get a good view over how these years were. And unfortunately for Brian, but all contributors agree that Brian was a mentilly ill man starting from '65.

By the way, what are the sources for Brian being good friends with Dylan? He visited London a couple of times, and it is reported that he met Brian there. Do we know if they were actual friends? And, do we have real proof Dylan paid for the coffin? It's always quoted that Dylan paid for the bronze coffin, but at least half of that quote is untrue: the coffin surely wasn't bronze (it was lowered manually, while a bronze coffin would be far too heavy for that).

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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All the people I listed above have themselves claimed that they were friends of Brian Jones. So you claim that Harrison, Townshend, McCartney, Burden, etc. were lying when they have stated they were friends of Brian? Also, do you consider ALO, a man who personally loathed Brian, an impartial source? Really? ALO would be the last person I would turn to for unfiltered, unbiased info on BJ.

You must see these kind of friendships in a different light. These people were all musicians on the road and in the studio for 90% of their time. They would socialize in London clubs, meet at gigs or in studio's, but to say that they were real friends -letting each other in to their personal lives - not at all.

Oldham's books are a very good source. If you would read them you would find out they are actually compiled by quotes and stories by many different people from the music bizz. Oldham mostly talks about his own demons, but through the words of all the other contributors you get a good view over how these years were. And unfortunately for Brian, but all contributors agree that Brian was a mentilly ill man starting from '65.

By the way, what are the sources for Brian being good friends with Dylan? He visited London a couple of times, and it is reported that he met Brian there. Do we know if they were actual friends? And, do we have real proof Dylan paid for the coffin? It's always quoted that Dylan paid for the bronze coffin, but at least half of that quote is untrue: the coffin surely wasn't bronze (it was lowered manually, while a bronze coffin would be far too heavy for that).

Mathijs

Socializing in a club can lead to close friendships in a few hours,They can be continued in private places,we know nothing about it really. .

What has the material the coffin was made of to do with the feelings Bob Dylan had when he eventually paid for it ,apart from the price?