Do my eyes deceive me or is that the same cape Mick wears in Gimme Shelter during the scene where they are shooting the cover for GYYYO?

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skipstone
This is all very interesting but I still can't be convinced of it - if they weren't so busy being busy with what they were wearing and looking like the album might have actually come out as an album instead of an EP of Citadel, Rainbow, 2000 Man and Light Years surrounded by a bunch of stoned boring filler.

Had they included We Love You on it it would have been that much better. But to no avail - the finished product should have been released as an EP.

That's the fun of it: if you listen to the outtakes of TSMR you hear how the Stones record, and you hear that the songs of TSMR were fantastic when they started out. But clearly something went wrong in the mixing and overdubbing stage...

Mathijs

Well, here's the list. There's three things quite apperent to me: This is Keith's album (it's his songs, and he's guiding the sessions), the second most important man is Nicky Hopkins, and you can clearly hear the demise of Brian Jones -on all tracks he plays on (either Mellotron, organ or acoustic guitar) he seems just too stoned to keep track. His timing is off, he can't find the chords. I guess every musician had this experience: you smoke a big joint, and you think all you play is fantastic. Untill you hear the playback the next day...

Mathijs

how do you like his mellotron work on "We Love You," Mathijs?

the Satanic Sessions always seem like a nice idea to me, but I can't imagine sitting down and listening. But I'm glad you guys have!

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Mathijs
Well, here's the list. There's three things quite apperent to me: This is Keith's album (it's his songs, and he's guiding the sessions), the second most important man is Nicky Hopkins, and you can clearly hear the demise of Brian Jones -on all tracks he plays on (either Mellotron, organ or acoustic guitar) he seems just too stoned to keep track. His timing is off, he can't find the chords. I guess every musician had this experience: you smoke a big joint, and you think all you play is fantastic. Untill you hear the playback the next day...

Mathijs

Two Points:

1.)On what TSMR songs do you think Brian plays acoustic guitar?

2.)You speak of Brian's demise. His timing seems to be perfect on 2000 LYFH (mellotron), She's A Rainbow (mellotron), Gomper (just about everything!), The Lantern (mellotron, sax), and On With the Show (mellotron).

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Mathijs
A short listening session this evening: this is what can be heard on the outtakes of some Majesties tracks:

Citadel

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Glockenspiel (? The high pitched “ping”): Mick Jagger
Shaker: Mick Jagger
Mellotron (Mandolin): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (strings): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (brass): Nicky Hopkins
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Harpsichord: Nicky Hopkins

Mathijs

Where's the evidence that Hopkins played mellotron on Citadel? Like His Majesty, are you just 'assuming' or 'guessing' that it was Hopkins?

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neptune

Quote
Mathijs
A short listening session this evening: this is what can be heard on the outtakes of some Majesties tracks:

Citadel

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Glockenspiel (? The high pitched “ping”): Mick Jagger
Shaker: Mick Jagger
Mellotron (Mandolin): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (strings): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (brass): Nicky Hopkins
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Harpsichord: Nicky Hopkins

Mathijs

Where's the evidence that Hopkins played mellotron on Citadel? Like His Majesty, are you just 'assuming' or 'guessing' that it was Hopkins?

Is it that the Mellotron parts on Citadel are more solid, as if they're
played by a proper keyboard player like Hopkins?
I don't have that version of Citadel you're mentioning,
but I do have versions of She's A Rainbow where Jones is playing
and indeed the Mellotron parts are a bit erratic, but mixed in
with the basic track, sound fine.

Correct my ignorance - the links on this thread, they will allow me to listen to these tunes?

There's a VGP boot: Brian Jones is not dead (VGP 017) including Citadel outtakes I don't remeber the source but I read somewhere that Brian was very critical versus TSMR and considered it a sort of "adieu" to the blues sound.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008-11-04 15:57 by straycat58.

Long time ago I bought an 8CD box with Satanic outtakes. It has no label though. Not even a matrix number on the CD's. The box is titled Satanic Sessions Box. Wonder if the recordings are the same as the ones you are talking about here. It certainly looks that way. Are there several/different editions of these outtakes ?

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

Sorry, forgot the list:

Citadel

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Glockenspiel (? The high pitched “ping”): Mick Jagger
Shaker: Mick Jagger
Mellotron (Mandolin): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (strings): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (brass): Nicky Hopkins
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Harpsichord: Nicky Hopkins


2000 Light Years from Home (Toffee Apple)

Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Bass: Bill Wyman
Drums: Charlie Watts
Mellotron (strings): Brian Jones
Shaker: Mick Jagger

We Love You

Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Mellotron (brass): Brian Jones

She’s Like a Rainbow (Flowers in your Barnett)

Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Tambourine: Mick Jagger
Congas: Mick Jagger
Mellotron (Brass): Brian Jones
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman

Child of the Moon
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Drums: Charlie Watts
Vocals: Mick Jagger
(Electric) Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Hammond (?): Brian Jones ?


In Another Land

Harpsichord: Nicky Hopkins
Bass: Bill Wyman
Drums: Charlie Watts
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Acoustic guitar: ?
12 string acoustic guitar: Steve Marriott ?
Mellotron (flutes): Nicky Hopkins

Sing This All Together

Mellotron (flutes): ? The long jam suggests Brian Jones.
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Drums: Charlie Watts
Percussion: ?
Bass: Bill Wyman

The Lantern (Fly My Kite)

Takes 1 to 5:

Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Acoustic guitar: Brian Jones
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman

Take 10 – 17
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Organ: Brian Jones
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman

On With the Show

Drums: Charlie Watts
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (brass): Brian Jones
Bass: Bill Wyman

Gomper:

Electric 12 string: Keith Richards
Vox Bijou (electric dulcimer): Brian Jones
Organ: Nicky Hopkins
Percussion: ?
Bass: Bill Wyman

2000 Man

Organ: Nicky Hopkins
Electric guitar (6 and 12 strings): Keith Richards
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman

Jigsaw Puzzle

Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric slide: Keith Richards
Drums: Charlie Watts
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Guide vocals: Mick Jagger
Guide acoustic guitar: Mick Jagger

Mathijs

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neptune

Quote
Mathijs
Well, here's the list. There's three things quite apperent to me: This is Keith's album (it's his songs, and he's guiding the sessions), the second most important man is Nicky Hopkins, and you can clearly hear the demise of Brian Jones -on all tracks he plays on (either Mellotron, organ or acoustic guitar) he seems just too stoned to keep track. His timing is off, he can't find the chords. I guess every musician had this experience: you smoke a big joint, and you think all you play is fantastic. Untill you hear the playback the next day...

Mathijs

Two Points:

1.)On what TSMR songs do you think Brian plays acoustic guitar?

2.)You speak of Brian's demise. His timing seems to be perfect on 2000 LYFH (mellotron), She's A Rainbow (mellotron), Gomper (just about everything!), The Lantern (mellotron, sax), and On With the Show (mellotron).

The Lantern take 1 to 5 has Keith playing electric and Brian on acoustic. Keith wants Brian to follow Nicky ('Nicky, just give a nod to Brian'), but it's not working. Take 10 to 17 has Keith on acoustic and Brian on organ. Keith's acoustic playing combines the electric parts he has in mind, and he follows the piano more closely, especially in the last to bars of the intro.

About Brian's demise: I am only judging Brian's work on this set of outtakes, and not on the finished product. Brian's work on 2000 Light Years is brilliant, it absolutely makes the song. But on this set of outtakes Brian's playing has a very stoned out feeling. He makes many mistakes, and his timing is off. Even on 2000 LY he plays a lot of wrong chords.

Concerning Gomper: judging on the outtakes Brian only plays the vox Bijou (electric dulcimer). The version on this outtakes set is the basic track for the released version, and only percussion and vocals seemed to be added.

Concerning The Lantern: all brass is from the mellotron, I do not believe Brian actually played sax.

Further to this, I am still convinced that Brian did not play sax on any Stones song, including Something Happened and Child of the Moon. His work on Look up the Number and the profesional quality of the horns on Something Happened makes me believe that session musicians were hired when horns were needed.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-03 12:33 by Mathijs.

Quote
Rolling Hansie
Long time ago I bought an 8CD box with Satanic outtakes. It has no label though. Not even a matrix number on the CD's. The box is titled Satanic Sessions Box. Wonder if the recordings are the same as the ones you are talking about here. It certainly looks that way. Are there several/different editions of these outtakes ?

Almost certainly, though there's also lots of 'Citadel' outtakes that aren't included on these 8 CDs.

Quote
neptune

Quote
Mathijs
A short listening session this evening: this is what can be heard on the outtakes of some Majesties tracks:

Citadel

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Glockenspiel (? The high pitched “ping”): Mick Jagger
Shaker: Mick Jagger
Mellotron (Mandolin): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (strings): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (brass): Nicky Hopkins
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Harpsichord: Nicky Hopkins

Mathijs

Where's the evidence that Hopkins played mellotron on Citadel? Like His Majesty, are you just 'assuming' or 'guessing' that it was Hopkins?

The Mellotron overdubs are clearly played by a classically trained musician, who has great experience in overdubbing multiple harmonized layers. By deduction this only leaves Hopkins. The Mandolin Mellotron, piano and harpsichord are clearly played by Hopkins. Aside from the advanced level of his playing, there's also studio chatter between Keith, Jagger and Hopkins.

I imagine this session to be Hopkins at the Mellotron, guided by Keith and Jagger to add as much as overdubs as possible in a short time.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-03 12:34 by Mathijs.

Mathijs, ref. We love you, you mean Old King Cole first version, April 1967 ?

Quote
neptune


Where's the evidence that Hopkins played mellotron on Citadel? Like His Majesty, are you just 'assuming' or 'guessing' that it was Hopkins?

Where is the evidence that Brian played them? Are you just assuming it's Brian, like I did for years!?

When has anyone from the band specifically said Brian played the mellotron on Citadel? General comments about Brian playing mellotron all over the album are just general comments, they are still kind of true even if he didn't play all of the mellotron parts.

In the other tracks where Brian is obviously present people say his name, you hear him talk etc, there's none of that on the citadel session.

HM, are the links to the downloads on page 1 still active?
just in case someone hasn't heard the sessions under discussion ... neptune, you *have* heard them, right?

Quote
Mathijs

Concerning Gomper: judging on the outtakes Brian only plays the vox Bijou (electric dulcimer). The version on this outtakes set is the basic track for the released version, and only percussion and vocals seemed to be added.

Concerning The Lantern: all brass is from the mellotron, I do not believe Brian actually played sax.

On Gomper, it'll be Charlie on tabalas during the basic takes. Brian must have overdubbed recorder, and Keith doubles the bassline with an electric guitar overdub.

I take it you mean Citadel rather than the lantern?

Regarding Brian and the sax, I have no problem believing he plays on something happened, but I don't think that it's prominent in the mix, what we hear is an arrangement and I agree that the meat of the parts are by sessions musicians most likely arranged by Jack Nischte.

But, The thing with Dandelion and Child of the Moon is that they both feature very simple soprano sax lines, we know that Brian loved soprano sax, although he plays alto on the beatles track, has there been any mention by anyone who played the sax parts on those two songs? It's assumed he did them, but is there anything that proves or even hints that he did or didn't play?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-03 13:45 by His Majesty.

Quote
with sssoul
HM, are the links to the downloads on page 1 still active?
just in case someone hasn't heard the sessions under discussion ... neptune, you *have* heard them, right?

I have no idea, I noticed people have requested reposts etc on the buy/sell/trade forum.

Quote


Concerning The Lantern: all brass is from the mellotron, I do not believe Brian actually played sax.

I take it you mean Citadel rather than the lantern?

Regarding Brian and the sax, I have no problem believing he plays on something happened, but I don't think that it's prominent in the mix, what we hear is an arrangement and I agree that the meat of the parts are by sessions musicians most likely arranged by Jack Nischte.

But, The thing with Dandelion and Child of the Moon is that they both feature very simple soprano sax lines, we know that Brian loved soprano sax, although he plays alto on the beatles track, has there been any mention by anyone who played the sax parts on those two songs? It's assumed he did them, but is there anything that proves or even hints that he did or didn't play?

[/quote]

Yep, Citadel that is.

O.k., the simple lines could be played by Brian, but indeed the bulk is by session players I believe.

I think I read a quote by Jimmy Miller that Brian added sax to Child of the Moon. I forget where I read it.

Mathijs

Quote
neptune


2.)You speak of Brian's demise. His timing seems to be perfect on 2000 LYFH (mellotron), She's A Rainbow (mellotron), Gomper (just about everything!), The Lantern (mellotron, sax), and On With the Show (mellotron).

Sorry neptune, but you seem to be taking your credits from keno's site!?

There is no mellotron on The Lantern! The real brass section on the lantern(and sing this altogether) isn't Brian, it's clearly arranged horns played by session musicians, for one man to play all that would require about 8 seperate tracks.

Stones tracks with mass brass/horn sections are played by session musicians, from Have you see your mother - something happened - the lantern etc.
Brian does plays organ on the track, but they mixed him out apart from the swirling leslie'd hammond note heard during the 'intros'. During the basic recording session he plays chords throughout the song, but they've mixed that out of the final release.

On Gomper he doesn't play 'just about everything', most likely he plays electric dulcimer with a slide and recorder(overdubbed), the tabalas and organ are present on the basic backing track recordings, thus he can't have played them as he's on electric dulicmer during the takes. There is no sitar, tamboura, sarod, flute on that track like keno says, that's pure nonsense.

You may want to bust our balls for assuming things based on some session cd's, but remember you are assuming Brian is playing a whole lot of things without any real proof that he did. It is uncomfortable to have years of assumptions that have somehow become fact challenged, but I think it's healthy to take on board 'evidence' that leads to questions and conversations about long held opinions about crediting.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-03 17:58 by His Majesty.

Quote
His Majesty
But, The thing with Dandelion and Child of the Moon is that they both feature very simple soprano sax lines, we know that Brian loved soprano sax, although he plays alto on the beatles track, has there been any mention by anyone who played the sax parts on those two songs? It's assumed he did them, but is there anything that proves or even hints that he did or didn't play?

Yes, I agree with this 100%. If Brian played sax on a Beatles track, he probably played sax on some Stones tracks as well. Brian did love the sax, as you say, particularly in early '67 when he was invited by the Beatles to record at Abbey Road. According to Paul, the Beatles expected Brian to bring a guitar. When Brian entered the studio with a sax instead, they were surprised and didn't know what to do at first. Then Paul thought a sax could be used in a song that had not been completed yet-YKMN-and the rest was history.

Quote
neptune

Yes, I agree with this 100%.

I thought you might!

According to Glyn Johns Brian played sax on Baby You're A Rich Man(Perhaps he's getting his Beatles songs mixed up?). I've never read that in any quotes/interviews by The Beatles saying he did, but if he did they must not have deemed it good enough as there is no sax on the final released version.

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neptune
If Brian played sax on a Beatles track, he probably played sax on some Stones tracks as well.

Also, if Nicky played mellotron on some Kinks and Creation tracks he probably played mellotron on some stones tracks as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-04 13:16 by His Majesty.

HM,

in May- June 1967, Brian Mick and Keith participated, in different sessions, to three Beatles tracks: "You know my name", "Baby you're a rich man" and "All you need is love".

I know almost nothing about the Beatles boots and outtake compilations but I expect that, apart from the official versions, it could be interesting to investigate if there're outtakes of the 3 above indicated tracks and find out if the three stones members are included.

There's any Beatle expert here who can enlighten us?

I've searched and searched for bootlegs containing any trace of Brian on sax on rich man, nothing out there that I'm aware of.

Mick and Keith were in abbey road during the live broadcast of AYNIL, but they weren't present during the backing track recording sessions. I don't really count that as being part of the song as such, it's not like they're mic'd up or anything, just part of a crowd. People say Brian was present at this also, but so far I've yet to see him in any footage or pics from the broadcast.

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His Majesty
There is no mellotron on The Lantern! The real brass section on the lantern(and sing this altogether) isn't Brian, it's clearly arranged horns played by session musicians, for one man to play all that would require about 8 seperate tracks.

First, I want to say that you and Mathijs have convinced me that Brian's parts on sax and most other exotic instruments on Stones tracks were simple. Yes, he wasn't a professional sax player and I beleive many of your observations about his contributions make sense. I do agree with you that the Stones most likely hired session musicians for Sing This All Together I and II and Something Happened, although I wouldn't rule out Brian overdubbing a single brass part into the mix, since, according to Mick Jagger, Brian was fascinated with reed instruments. Brian himself talked many times about how he started out with reed instruments, and that may explain why he became so good with the harmonica. Anyway, I have a point/question regarding Lantern. There is a sax during the two breaks and it seems 'simple' enough for Brian to have played it. Could that be him?

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Mathijs
The Lantern take 1 to 5 has Keith playing electric and Brian on acoustic. Keith wants Brian to follow Nicky ('Nicky, just give a nod to Brian'), but it's not working. Take 10 to 17 has Keith on acoustic and Brian on organ. Keith's acoustic playing combines the electric parts he has in mind, and he follows the piano more closely, especially in the last to bars of the intro. Mathijs

Do you think Brian is playing acoustic on the released version of Lantern? It kind of sounds like his playing on Goddard's One Plus One footage of the acoustic take of SFTD (where Mick is teaching Brian the part but then leaves him alone once he's got it down and begins adding some nice bluesy runs during verse) Also, on 2000 Man, is that Brian on sitar-sounding electric guitar during the initial verses as well as on acoustic? Sounds like it might be him but I'm not sure.

Yeah I agree that even when session players have been brought in, it doesn't mean Brian can't be on that track playing sax also.

For example, Bill say's Brian played sax on something happened..., so perhaps Brian played a cool sax part, then later the sessions players added on their overdubs or vice versa. There has to be a reason why Bill mentions he's playing sax on the track in the first place. Whether his part was kept, or is prominent in the mix etc would be near impossible to work out due to the presence of other brass instruments. There isn't enough confirmed Brian sax parts to begin comparing licks etc!

Similar thing for the mellotron parts on Citadel, there's 5 or 6 layers of mellotron on the released version.

Due to the nature of the way in which the backing track was recorded and going by the voices heard and what is said during the session, I'm personally convinced that Nicky plays the mellotron - mandolin sound during the basic takes. I also think it's most likely that Nicky did the overdubs that are heard on the box set.

However. there's still the cool lead line that comes in during the latter verses which is heard on the released version, but not on the last take heard on the box set. Who played that!?

Regarding the lantern bit, I'm sure he could play it, but it I hear trumpets and sax's so I think it's session players, but of course Brian could be in there!?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-04 19:34 by His Majesty.

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neptune
Do you think Brian is playing acoustic on the released version of Lantern? It kind of sounds like his playing on Goddard's One Plus One footage of the acoustic take of SFTD (where Mick is teaching Brian the part but then leaves him alone once he's got it down and begins adding some nice bluesy runs during verse) Also, on 2000 Man, is that Brian on sitar-sounding electric guitar during the initial verses as well as on acoustic? Sounds like it might be him but I'm not sure.

Brian plays acoustic guitar for some early takes, but he's on organ for the remainder of the session. His playing is strikingly different and weaker sounding during the session than Keith's and it's Keith's stronger, confident playing that can be heard on the released version.

Brian doesn't appear to be present for the 2000 Man session. All of the guitars are by Keith, organ by Nicky Hopkins.

Mick has said that Brian didn't play any guitar on TSMR, make of that what you will.

He certainly played on the early takes of The Lantern though, we hear him talk, Glyn talks to him about tuning up etc, but that seems to be the only proof of him playing guitar on the double box sets.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-04 19:36 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
I've searched and searched for bootlegs containing any trace of Brian on sax on rich man, nothing out there that I'm aware of.

This is from memory, but I believe Brian played oboe on Baby You're a Rich Man.