The other rhythm section...

I saw these great Satanic era photos over at Rocks Off...

just ordered the MONO cd version-can't wait to give it a listen!!!!!!!!!!!

scottkeef Wrote:
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> just ordered the MONO cd version-can't wait to
> give it a listen!!!!!!!!!!!

Where from?

I'm not keen on the stereo mix for this album at all.

got it off E-Bay. I also got the MONO Let It Bleed here. They may be boots(I really don't know) but the bleed cd sounded like a "drop needle(?)" transfer as you could hear very minor surface noise occasionally. Paid $14 each including s/h. thought it was a pretty good deal.

who's that next to paul in the pic above? thanks.

cc Wrote:
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> who's that next to paul in the pic above? thanks.


Stash!

Although the credits for that photo say it's from the 70's and that it's Ronnie Wood hah! :-()



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-12-18 00:57 by His Majesty.

satanic sessions revisited...

I had another listen through some of the satanic sessions box set and I noticed something I, erm, hadn't noticed before.

Know that strawberry fields-esque mellotron flute intro to Sing This Altogether(See what happens)? Well going by the few minutes of session tape on the cd it sounds like Keith apologizing whenever the mellotron part screws up.

So, this suggests to me that it's Keith who plays the mellotron - flute intro, not Brian.

Makes me wonder if the footage of keith playing a MKII Mellotron seen in the We Love You promo is from that very session!?



Also, I'm not so sure now that it's Brian who plays mellotron on Citadel. The various takes suggest it's Nicky Hopkins.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-02 05:01 by His Majesty.

Quote
Zack
A few months back I was reading excellent track-by-track notes for these boxes. Just yesterday, I was going to attempt to make a one-CD best of the sessions, but I lost the damn notes. Anybody have a link to them?

Later, I will post my track list for the best of.

thanks,

Zack

That would be awesome, I was just thinking that I don't know if I have the patience to sit through all 8 CDs, but I'd be very interested in a one CD "best of the box." I'll keep watching this thread for your track list, and thanks in advance for doing that!

Quote
His Majesty
satanic sessions revisited...

I had another listen through some of the satanic sessions box set and I noticed something I, erm, hadn't noticed before.

Know that strawberry fields-esque mellotron flute intro to Sing This Altogether(See what happens)? Well going by the few minutes of session tape on the cd it sounds like Keith apologizing whenever the mellotron part screws up.

So, this suggests to me that it's Keith who plays the mellotron - flute intro, not Brian.

Makes me wonder if the footage of keith playing a MKII Mellotron seen in the We Love You promo is from that very session!?



Also, I'm not so sure now that it's Brian who plays mellotron on Citadel. The various takes suggest it's Nicky Hopkins.

Oh, bloody hell, everybody played the mellotron for the Stones! Nicky Hopkins, Bill Wyman, Jack Nitzsche, Ian Stewart, Dave Mason, Brian Jones, and now Keith Richards. I'm sure I'm missing somebody else. The way its going, we'll all soon be saying Brian didn't play a note of mellotron for the Stones. And we'll also be saying what a great multi-instrumentalist Keith Richards is!

Oh dear god I love this thread...........that sound you just heard was my head exploding....

Quote


Oh, bloody hell, everybody played the mellotron for the Stones! Nicky Hopkins, Bill Wyman, Jack Nitzsche, Ian Stewart, Dave Mason, Brian Jones, and now Keith Richards. I'm sure I'm missing somebody else. The way its going, we'll all soon be saying Brian didn't play a note of mellotron for the Stones. And we'll also be saying what a great multi-instrumentalist Keith Richards is!

Well, we've got to stick to the facts don't we? The outtakes of Satanic has helped a lot establishing who played what -and it turns out Keith and Hopkins were mush greater forces on this album than we thought.

Mathijs

Quote
Mathijs

Quote


Oh, bloody hell, everybody played the mellotron for the Stones! Nicky Hopkins, Bill Wyman, Jack Nitzsche, Ian Stewart, Dave Mason, Brian Jones, and now Keith Richards. I'm sure I'm missing somebody else. The way its going, we'll all soon be saying Brian didn't play a note of mellotron for the Stones. And we'll also be saying what a great multi-instrumentalist Keith Richards is!

Well, we've got to stick to the facts don't we? The outtakes of Satanic has helped a lot establishing who played what -and it turns out Keith and Hopkins were mush greater forces on this album than we thought.

Mathijs

Exactly. It is interesting that during the last few years there has been circulating new info of those experimental years of 1966-67. For example, Keith has started to recall stuff like the twelve-guitar slide experiment is the one behind the riff of "Mother's Little Helper", and that they all were quite experimental, not just Brian, in those days. This doesn't change the fact that Brian was THE multi-instrumentalist or the most experimental by nature of all of them, but just enrichens the picture of the band from those days.

Some Brian Jones fans say that this is "revisionism" or a systematic plan to write Brian off from the history of the band, but I don't see it this way. I think the ACTUAL revisionism - if there ever was one - happened decades ago. Namely, at the time when Brian was gone, and the climate of the musical world had changed from those hectic yaers of 1966-67. I think it was more important then, from 1969 on, to give the impression that there was a reason why the band had been fooled around for some time, and made music that was absolutely awful and unlistenable to the ears of the day. It was much easier to 'blame' Brian for all those stupid-sounding, trippy experiments that seemed to lead the band in a wrong track in 1966-67 from their true nature. Like they said, distinctively in the early 70's, they didn't need any 'flutes' or bloody "Lady Janes" anymore. The effect was that the the rest seemed to be the 'straight' rock and roll guys, it was just this one 'lunatic' who fooled around with all these exotic instruments and ideas. Especially Keith Richards was to be seen the 'pure' guitarist who loyally sticked into his instrument, and kept Chuck Berry in his mind (I exaggarate, but I guess my point can be seen).

The part of this picture is that it is ignored actual Brian (a) was in very much opposition to trendy direction the band went in 1967, (b) was very much into the blues direction the band took in 1968.

So, I think it is very interesting to find discoveries like His Majesty did, or what Keith has recently revealed.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-02 11:07 by Doxa.

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His Majesty
Olympic Sound Studios: 22nd April 1967 - by John Reader - Time & Life Pictures

On April 22nd Keith is reported to be in Rome with Anita for the movie Barbarella. And there's no evidence of sessions at the Olympic in this day. I suppose these pictures are also from the May 19 sessions.

Thanks for pointing that out straycat58, the dates are just taken from the photo credits, which are often a bit wonky.

Quote
neptune
Oh, bloody hell, everybody played the mellotron for the Stones! Nicky Hopkins, Bill Wyman, Jack Nitzsche, Ian Stewart, Dave Mason, Brian Jones, and now Keith Richards. I'm sure I'm missing somebody else. The way its going, we'll all soon be saying Brian didn't play a note of mellotron for the Stones. And we'll also be saying what a great multi-instrumentalist Keith Richards is!

Oh my, it is always assumed that if it's mellotron then Brian played it. I always thought that Brain played all the mellotron parts on TSMR as well, but close listening to the session CD's appears to show that that is not the case.

My main interest in the stones during this time, aside from simply enjoying the music, is to try and find/work out what is being used to make the sounds on the records and who played them. I see not point in Brian being credited with something when there is evidence that suggests someone else played the part.

In the grand scheme of things who played what means very little, enjoying the music is what it's all about. Finding out that an assumed credit possibly isn't right doesn't affect the greatness of what you hear... unless, for whatever reason, you WANT it to be Brian.

Regarding Nicky Hopkins playing mellotron... Why would he NOT play it for The Rolling Stones when he's played it for the likes of The Kinks and The Creation? Throughout his session days, Nicky played every type of keyboard instrument available at the time, it's not that ridiculous to expect that he may have played the mellotron for the stones as well.

When you find out that someone else played a part you always assumed was Brian's , does that change how cool the part is!?

The various takes from the Citadel sessions appears to show that Nicky played the mellotron - mandolin during the basic tracking, then he overdubbed piano and further mellotron, some of which may be Brian too, afterwards.

Quote
His Majesty
My main interest in the stones during this time, aside from simply enjoying the music, is to try and find/work out what is being used to make the sounds on the records and who played them. I see not point in Brian being credited with something when there is evidence that suggests someone else played the part.

HM, you may very well be right. Keith might have played that flute mellotron intro on STAT(See What Happens) and Hopkins the mellotron on Citadel. I admire your efforts for finding out the truth and I also try to listen closely to the records to find out who's playing what. I also want to find out the truth. The reason why I'm a little skeptical in regards to your points is that its been a well-established fact (even from Mick and Keith themsleves) that Brian was the main mellotron dabbler within the band. Mick and Keith have credited Brian various times with playing the mellotron on We Love You and TSMR. Now, you say that Keith played the mellotron intro on See What Happens. You hear Keith's voice during the outtake, apologizing after each stoppage. How do we truly know Keith's on the mellotron? Maybe he's telling Brian or Nicky to stop and apologizing to them. I need more proof that its Keith. Pictures of Keith playing a mellotron says nothing. Keith, furthermore, has never taken credit for playing a mellotron. One would think he would have done so by now. As for Citadel, the brass parts seem, upon closer inspection, to be REAL. It sounds like a real saxophone to me as opposed to a mellotron. Remember that Brian played sax on the Beatles' You Know My Name around the same time, so I think it could very well be Brian playing sax on Citadel.

>> Pictures of Keith playing a mellotron says nothing. <<

... well, the footage (which those pictures are screen captures from) does indicate
that Keith did play the mellotron on some occasion(s), whether he's talked about it or not.
i agree of course that there's no proof the footage has anything to do with See What Happens -
but HM didn't say there's proof, just that the session tapes sound like Keith could be the one playing it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-02 18:15 by with sssoul.

Yeah, I'm not saying it is fact, but listening to the CD gives the impression that Keith is playing the mellotron and apologizing each time he @#$%& up.

It's just a small part of a not so good track, Keith may not remember playing it, if he did indeed do so. There is no proof that Brian played that part, there is something that suggests it's Keith.

The general picture is that Brian got hung up on the mellotron during this time and played it a lot, that doesn't mean the others didn't play it during sessions. Bear in mind there is documentation in the streetly electronic archives relating to Mick and Bill buying mellotrons back then, and also that there is a mellotron in keith's Redlands home in those spring 69 pics by Michael Cooper. They liked them enough to go out and buy mellotrons for themselves.

It's just another instrument and it's easy to play, so I don't have any trouble envisaging them playing mellotron at recording sessions, perhaps when they want that and Brian isn't present or whatever.

...

Regarding brass on Citadel, I'm certain that there isn't any real brass instrumemnts on that track, the fast run that comes in during the latter verses is one of the brass sounds on the MKII Mellotron.

Citadel is something of a keyboard tour de force featuring the Mellotron - mandolin, various brass and 3 violins sounds, the not often used 'rock guitar' sound is even dabbled with during the basic backing track recording. Then there's the real piano and harpsichord stuff, quite a lot no!?

Quote
with sssoul
>> Pictures of Keith playing a mellotron says nothing. <<

... well, the footage (which those pictures are screen captures from) does indicate
that Keith did play the mellotron on some occasion(s), whether he's talked about it or not.
i agree of course that there's no proof the footage has anything to do with See What Happens -
but HM didn't say there's proof, just that the session tapes sound like Keith could be the one playing it.

Regarding this footage, this morning I was looking for it and found out that I miss it or I'm not able to trace it anymore, although I remember I saw it before.
Can you refresh my memory and tell me from which source it comes?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-09-01 14:15 by straycat58.

>> Can you refresh my memory and tell me from which source it comes? <<

i think it's been used in a few different ways. i have it in tragic quality in promo clip called We Love You Version 2;
last year it was on the ABKCO site in a clip for some other number - i forget what. Dandelion maybe?

>> did you note that recently somebody posted here a collection of videos including Longleat 1964? <<

i didn't see that - in what thread, please and thank you kindly?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-02 18:52 by with sssoul.

Yes, you're right, I saw it in "We love you" alternate promo video.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-09-01 14:16 by straycat58.

Quote
His Majesty
Regarding brass on Citadel, I'm certain that there isn't any real brass instrumemnts on that track, the fast run that comes in during the latter verses is one of the brass sounds on the MKII Mellotron.

Citadel is something of a keyboard tour de force featuring the Mellotron - mandolin, various brass and 3 violins sounds, the not often used 'rock guitar' sound is even dabbled with during the basic backing track recording. Then there's the real piano and harpsichord stuff, quite a lot no!?

OK, let's say the sax parts on Citadel are indeed a MKII Mellotron. Why do you suggest that these parts were played by Nicky Hopkins and not Brian Jones? What's your evidence? The 2 mellotron parts Brian is credited by Mick and Keith with are those on We Love You and 2000 LYFH. His mellotron playing on those two tracks are similar to the 'sax' on Citadel. So why can't it be Brian on Citadel? Nicky Hopkins has never been credited by any reliable sources for playing mellotron on any Stones recording. In the TSMR sleeve, the Stones thank Hopkins for piano, not a mellotron or anything else. Thus, from the horse's mouth, we can eliminate Hopkins from the equation . . .

Quote
neptune

Quote
His Majesty
Regarding brass on Citadel, I'm certain that there isn't any real brass instrumemnts on that track, the fast run that comes in during the latter verses is one of the brass sounds on the MKII Mellotron.

Citadel is something of a keyboard tour de force featuring the Mellotron - mandolin, various brass and 3 violins sounds, the not often used 'rock guitar' sound is even dabbled with during the basic backing track recording. Then there's the real piano and harpsichord stuff, quite a lot no!?

OK, let's say the sax parts on Citadel are indeed a MKII Mellotron. Why do you suggest that these parts were played by Nicky Hopkins and not Brian Jones? What's your evidence? The 2 mellotron parts Brian is credited by Mick and Keith with are those on We Love You and 2000 LYFH. His mellotron playing on those two tracks are similar to the 'sax' on Citadel. So why can't it be Brian on Citadel? Nicky Hopkins has never been credited by any reliable sources for playing mellotron on any Stones recording. In the TSMR sleeve, the Stones thank Hopkins for piano, not a mellotron or anything else. Thus, from the horse's mouth, we can eliminate Hopkins from the equation . . .

Generally speaking, Brian was a multi-instrumentalist, but he was amateuristic at best on all instruments. His biggest talent was that he instinctively played just exactly what a song needed, but the execution of his parts always is a bit sloppy and amateuristic compared to pro-players like Hopkins. Most of the time it is quite clear whether Brian played a part, or a more skilled player like Hopkins. As far as we know from outtakes, Brian was an amateuristic piano player, and most advanced level parts were played by Jack Nitsche (early years) and Hopkins (starting from '67).

On the outtakes set, you hear the following on Citadel: takes 20 to 34 feature:

Drums + shakers: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Glockenspiel (? The high pitched “ping”): Mick Jagger
Mellotron (Mandolin): Nicky Hopkins

Than take "Citadel extra piano" features a session with various overdubs, all played by Hopkins:

Drums + shakers: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Glockenspiel (? The high pitched “ping”): Mick Jagger
Mellotron (Mandolin): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (strings): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (brass): Nicky Hopkins
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Harpsichord: Nicky Hopkins

Mathijs

Quote
neptune

OK, let's say the sax parts on Citadel are indeed a MKII Mellotron. Why do you suggest that these parts were played by Nicky Hopkins and not Brian Jones? What's your evidence? The 2 mellotron parts Brian is credited by Mick and Keith with are those on We Love You and 2000 LYFH. His mellotron playing on those two tracks are similar to the 'sax' on Citadel. So why can't it be Brian on Citadel? Nicky Hopkins has never been credited by any reliable sources for playing mellotron on any Stones recording.

From an earlier post...

Quote
His Majesty
The various takes from the Citadel sessions appears to show that Nicky played the mellotron - mandolin during the basic tracking, then he overdubbed piano and further mellotron, some of which may be Brian too, afterwards.

There's many layers of mellotron on Citadel, the brass chording is a different overdub and sound from the lead line, but for sure they are both mellotron sounds. The lead line isn't present on the satanic sessions, so that's yet another overdub!

The problem with trying to identify who played the extra mellotron overdubs is that there isn't any 'as it happens' takes for that, they just appear(save for the lead line) on final Citadel CD track along with the harpsichord(which is rather amazing I have to say!) and piano.

Quote
neptune

In the TSMR sleeve, the Stones thank Hopkins for piano, not a mellotron or anything else. Thus, from the horse's mouth, we can eliminate Hopkins from the equation . . .

He most definitely played hammond organ and harpsichord too, but they don't thank him for that either. Thus, record sleeves don't always tell it like it is, or was.

A short listening session this evening: this is what can be heard on the outtakes of some Majesties tracks:

Citadel

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Glockenspiel (? The high pitched “ping”): Mick Jagger
Shaker: Mick Jagger
Mellotron (Mandolin): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (strings): Nicky Hopkins
Mellotron (brass): Nicky Hopkins
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Harpsichord: Nicky Hopkins


2000 Light Years from Home (Toffee Apple)

Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Bass: Bill Wyman
Drums: Charlie Watts
Mellotron (strings): Brian Jones
Shaker: Mick Jagger

We Love You

Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Bass: Bill Wyman
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Mellotron (brass): Brian Jones

She’s Like a Rainbow (Flowers in your Barnett)

Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Tambourine: Mick Jagger
Congas: Mick Jagger
Mellotron (Brass): Brian Jones
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman

Child of the Moon
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Drums: Charlie Watts
Vocals: Mick Jagger
Bass: Bill Wyman
Piano: Nicky Hopkins

In Another Land

Harpsichord: Nicky Hopkins
Bass: Bill Wyman
Drums: Charlie Watts
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Acoustic guitar: ?
12 string acoustic guitar: Steve Marriott ?
Mellotron (flutes): Nicky Hopkins

Mathijs

Quote
Mathijs


Child of the Moon
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Drums: Charlie Watts
Vocals: Mick Jagger
Bass: Bill Wyman
Piano: Nicky Hopkins

There is no bass, it's hohner electric piano by the sound of it, so perhaps Nicky Hopkins is playing the pianet with his left hand and the piano with his right. The interaction between the electric piano and acoustic piano is as if it's by the same player.

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
Mathijs


Child of the Moon
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Drums: Charlie Watts
Vocals: Mick Jagger
Bass: Bill Wyman
Piano: Nicky Hopkins

There is no bass, it's hohner electric piano by the sound of it, so perhaps Nicky Hopkins is playing the pianet with his left hand and the piano with his right. The interaction between the electric piano and acoustic piano is as if it's by the same player.

I think you're right, I was already doubting whether I heard a real bass.

About the flutes on Sing this all together: in the long jam you hear Keith, Hopkins on piano and the flutes jamming: so it must be someone other than Keith or nicky playing the mellotron. Judging on the amount of mistakes my bet is Brian Jones.

Mathijs

This is all very interesting but I still can't be convinced of it - if they weren't so busy being busy with what they were wearing and looking like the album might have actually come out as an album instead of an EP of Citadel, Rainbow, 2000 Man and Light Years surrounded by a bunch of stoned boring filler.

Had they included We Love You on it it would have been that much better. But to no avail - the finished product should have been released as an EP.