Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I find it very hard to believe that Brian Jones,
> who wasn't able to produce any demo in 6 years
> time, whom hasn't written ANY song in his life

---

I'm glad you're not a pupil in my history class.

How the hell do you know he didnt write ANy song??

Thanks for the info, DGA.

[p207.ezboard.com]

It would be great if somehow the score/soundtrack for "A Degree of Murder" could be made available on CD at some point.

One poster on Rocks Off suggested such a thing the other day and that it could be done - and was enquiring if anyone knew who would own the license to it

[www.novogate.com]

Anyone?

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would be great if somehow the score/soundtrack
> for "A Degree of Murder" could be made available
> on CD at some point.
>
> One poster on Rocks Off suggested such a thing the
> other day and that it could be done - and was
> enquiring if anyone knew who would own the license
> to it

Gazza, strange that you mention it. It's being released by a Japanese label right now.
-----
BRIAN JONES 1DVD-R (+Ltd.1CDR) A DEGREE OF MURDER: 40th Anniversary Special Edition IMP-501V < 1DVDR: Complete Movie With IMP Original Japanese Subtitles + Ltd.250 Only Bonus 1CDR: Soundtrack Of The Movie

Cool. That might be worth trackin' down, Erik. An official or a pirate release, though?

It's a pirate, and it's Japanese, so it's not that cheap I reckon.
I'm not buying bootlegs in 2007, I'm taking a break, but somebody from IORR or RocksOff could buy it...and torrent it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-02-22 19:21 by Erik_Snow.

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would be great if somehow the score/soundtrack
> for "A Degree of Murder" could be made available
> on CD at some point.
>
> One poster on Rocks Off suggested such a thing the
> other day and that it could be done - and was
> enquiring if anyone knew who would own the license
> to it
>
> Anyone?

Licensing ? Forget it. Honestly. I tried it a couple of years ago. You'll face problems amass when you try. First: The music was never cleared for record releases, only for use as a movie soundtrack. Consequently, if you want to 'license' it for a CD release, you have to start from scratch and need to get permission from EVERY MUSICIAN involved, and there is no proper documentation of who's playing what. So if you fail to get this permission from EVERYBODY involved (if only because you did not know about somebody's involvement, as documentation is poor) and someone turns up who can prove he did play this and that on the soundtrack, he can effectively get your CD removed from the shelves. So it's not a case of contacting a certain company which owns the "rights", pay license fees and start pressing CDs - it is much much more complicated. And the reason is simply that Brian did not care to secure rights for a record release from everyone involved. Then again, he recorded this as a movie soundtrack and obviously never thought about a possible record release.

Rocky Dojon wrote:

I just wonder if Brian's "Has Anybody Seen My Baby" demo featured a rap in lieu of a bridge?


Damn, he was ten years ahead of the Sugar Hill Gang.

June, 1969

Brian: "The next line is 'Hip Hop, Hippity Hop, Hip Hop Hip Hop Hip'."

Keith: "F*ck Off"!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-02-22 20:23 by Elmo Lewis.

Baboon Bro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I find it very hard to believe that Brian
> Jones,
> > who wasn't able to produce any demo in 6 years
> > time, whom hasn't written ANY song in his life
>
> ---
>
> I'm glad you're not a pupil in my history class.
>
> How the hell do you know he didnt write ANy song??


Well then: name ONE song he wrote.
Mathijs

"House At Pooh Corner"?

Silkcut, have you heard the tracks that you mentioned the collector has? If so, what are they like and were they acquired thru auction or connections?

[p207.ezboard.com]

Post 'em so we can all hear 'em.

Those tracks wont ever get out....AND, they are great, from what I have heard.

I DO NOT HAVE THEM, so dont ask.

JR

stone-relics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those tracks wont ever get out....

How can you be so sure that they won't EVER get out...?

Always a problem with collectors: I have something you don't have and nobody is gonna hear it, i'm gonna listen to it in my secret hide-out.


stone-relics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those tracks wont ever get out....AND, they are
> great, from what I have heard.
>
> I DO NOT HAVE THEM, so dont ask.
>
> JR

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Well then: name ONE song he wrote.
> Mathijs

Well then: you name all the planets out there where you
claim there are n o t intelligent life on...

E silentio-conclusions is banned in all scientific disciplines.
Should also be banned here.

Baboon Bro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Well then: name ONE song he wrote.
> > Mathijs
>
> Well then: you name all the planets out there
> where you
> claim there are n o t intelligent life on...

Well, I am a scientist by profession. The first principle of science is that you can never prove something to be NOT true; you can only prove something to be true within given boundaries and beyond reasonable doubt. And beyond reasonable doubt simply means when the majority of scientist agree with you. So, a scientist can never proof life does not exist on other planets, he can only proof it does exist

Therefore, it is not up to me to proof that Brian didn't write any songs -it's up to the people who believe he wrote songs to proof it beyond reasonable doubt. And until this is proven, all signs are negative for Brian, as there is not one single song, official or bootleg that is proven to be written by Brian. And in fact, the only material he is connected with is non-music: pans and pipes, and an unlistenable soundtrack. It even goes so far that everyone around him states that "he wasn't a writer", and that it most probably is the main reason for the break between him and Jagger/Richards.

Mathijs.

"Well, I am a scientist by profession." (Mathijs)

- So am I. I am a University Teacher and Study Headmaster.
I am a Historian by profession. I won a law suit case
for the Swedish Samis last year; in fact the first they won ever.
I have been practising applied and fundamental research
since 1993.

"The first principle of science is that you can never prove something to be NOT true"

- Exactly my point.

"And beyond reasonable doubt simply means when the majority of scientist agree with you."

- Really??

Come on, Brian Jones played guitar hour after hour daily circa 1958 (probably earlier?) - 1969. Why in Heavens name shouldnt he have been writing songs?
Mathijs, you act exactly like the landowners who claimed there hadnt
been any reindeers on their land just because they were few
sources on it.
Ask yourself: Why would there be any evidence of any Brian-songs?

Please stop being so sure about things you dont know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-02-23 13:47 by Baboon Bro.

The whole discussion if Brian wrote songs or not is a bit...uh...theoretical. As such and at this point in time it is a matter of believing or not believing. Fact is that nobody taking part in this discussion has actually heard at least a short clip of those fabled demos. In all these years as a Stones fan, I heard a lot of stories about fabled recordings; app. twenty years ago someone claimed another collector came across a twelve-minute studio run-through of Little Red Rooster, later someone mentioned he knows someone who actually has the fabled "English Summer" in his collection - just to name a few. Now I hear that those fabled 1969 Brian Jones demos are out there in the hands of a collector and that those recordings are supposedly "great". It is possible, of course. But even if those recordings actually exist and are actually out there somewhere, who can confirm without having heard at least a short clip that those are really well-crafted songs and not just jams, improvisations or musical landscapes like the A Degree Of Murder soundtrack?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-02-23 13:33 by retired_dog.

It looks like it is an established truth that the sentence "Brian Jones were not able to write songs". I have hear it in many books and I hear it repeated like a mantra here. Because there seems to be so much expertisism around here, even with scientific authority, can someone determine exactly what a term 'song' means?

And subquestion, what makes you a composer or a writer (despite, being able to 'write songs'). How does is to be distinguished from, for example, just 'making rifs', jamming (to a an extent), making filmscores, etc. How much sort of structure - and what exactly it is - there is needed to be a 'song'? Some maestro here is using describing the efforts of Brian Jones by terms like "non-music' and 'unlistenable', that of course, (taken the context) do not come from any idiosyncratic subjective source.

I hope the final explanation or determination somehow could include Pink Floyd or King Crimson stuff there also, at least under the name of 'composing' or 'writing'. So, the question, what exactly is the thing that Brian Jones was not able to do?

(Point aside: I think the whole idea of "BRian jones not being a writer" would more to mean that he was a bad writer - at least for example compared to Jagger/Richard stuff, not that he could make any song at all. The latter sounds strange, taking that he is a quite competent musician, and making song is not exactly any rocket science. Shit, I have made some bloody awful song myself, and there is not any tapes, sheets, etc. to prove that!)

- Doxa

Nice contribution, Doxa.
All that make us think and not just canonizing
old sayings over and over is progression.

If I sat on some Brian demos from 69 I certainly wouldnt post them at Trade.

Baboon Bro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> If I sat on some Brian demos from 69 I certainly
> wouldnt post them at Trade.

Why not? keep them to yourself? so you can boast about how great they are, but you're the only one who ever heard 'em?
Unbelievable.

I agree with Mathijs. I believe that Mathijs is thinking in the well established terms of rock'n roll bands and press. You have your writer(s). The writer knows usually how to put words and melody together to form a song. A song consisting of verses plus chorus , with hopefully a hook. the melody/music is scored in rock'n roll mostly for guitars, Bass, drums, piano and vox. They are recorded in multi track studios where knowledge of the technology and the production tools is helpful/vital. The writer/leader/producer knows who.what tools to use also when it comes to personnel. Some personnel is stronger than others. as much as Brian might not like it, he was part of that personnel. He was brilliant in that role and colored many songs to the point of giving them identity features. But the core idea...this is the hard part. Often it is the plainest simplest little phrase; like Doxa was asking "What is songwriting?" IMO a huge part of songwriting is the recognition of this idea. Of the potential that this idea houses. Another major part of songwriting is knowing when to stop. NOT when the song is finished, because one can argue that a song is never "finished". But just when to quit laboring. I have also seen many musicians never "write" anyhting because they never thouight anyhting was done, ready, worthy. Lennon/McCartney knew that once they sung "Love me do.." and put a lalala behind it it was enough. that IMO is some genius.
Abou that recognition of the original idea there is a great quote that I always carry around with me: "A pile of rocks ceases to be a mere mound of stones the instant a man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral".

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

You're out on a slippery track, Chelsea.

What do you agree with Mr Mathijs about?
That Brian never ever did write any song or song-like piece?

Wake up, people!
Think before you talk.

Chelsea: "You have your writer(s). The writer knows usually how to put words
and melody together to form a song.
A song consisting of verses plus chorus,
with hopefully a hook. the melody/music is scored in rock'n roll
mostly for guitars, Bass, drums, piano and vox.
They are recorded in multi track studios where knowledge
of the technology and the production tools is helpful/vital.
The writer/leader/producer knows who.what tools to use
also when it comes to personnel."

- Is that your definition af "a song"?? This is getting more and more strange.

I dont know anything (and I dont care); did he or did he not write any song?
But I for sure know one thing:
Given not someone recorded every single second of Brian Jones's life,
then viewed all the tapes and could state: "He did not - ever - write
any song", before that NO ONE could with kept honous claim he didnt.

And believe me, I know what I am talking about as I worked for six years
with a Billion SKR law suit case about the same principles in evidence or lack of ditto.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-02-23 15:23 by Baboon Bro.

gimme_shelter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baboon Bro Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > If I sat on some Brian demos from 69 I
> certainly
> > wouldnt post them at Trade.
>
> Why not? keep them to yourself? so you can boast
> about how great they are, but you're the only one
> who ever heard 'em?
> Unbelievable.

Imagine this scenario: You paid, let's say $ 10.000 to obtain these demos. You post them on Hot Stuff to make other fans happy. One month later, you see bootleg CDs coming out with the stuff you posted freely for everyone to enjoy.
What would you think if you see that bootleg labels cash in on the stuff you originally paid for?

a) I don't care. I gave the stuff out for free and if others make some bucks with it so what.

b) I don't like it.

Honest answers please!

Like any guitar player, Brian surely had those "happy mistakes" when one stumbles upon a great riff or chord change. Writing these down and developing them into songs is a whole different thing indeed.

Brian:

Song fragments and ideas - surely
Complete or nearly complete songs - I don't know, but don't think so



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-02-23 16:32 by Elmo Lewis.

Great post, Doxa.

I believe this "Brian Jones was not able to write songs" talk is a reaction to the "Brian Jones was able to write songs" talk. Some believe he could, and others doubt it. Noone doubts that Bob Dylan, Lennon-McCartney or Jagger-Richards were able to write songs. Why? Because the evidence is out there for everyone to hear. And that's not the case with Brian Jones.

My take on this is: It is possible that Brian was a great songwriter. But until I hear something I have my doubts. And that's all. For me, Brian was a great musician. Evidence is out there for everyone to hear. Why is it necessary for some people to see him as a great songwriter too? In my eyes he does not need to be a great songwriter because I respect him for what he was. Is that what he was not enough for some people?

A Stones fan claiming scepticism regarding the existence of Brian Jones songs from 1969 on the basis that no songs with words and music credited to Brian Jones have ever circulated among collectors is hardly a slur against Brian's talent. Its a logical conclusion for a healthy sceptic to draw from the lack of evidence. Why believe something with no proof?

If the only proof being argued is Brian was a talented multi-instrumentalist, then its the equivalent of deducing Charlie Watts must have written songs during his 50+ years of playing drums even though none have ever come to light. Personally, I would be thrilled if the 1969 Brian Jones solo recordings exist and would love to hear them and add them to my collection, but until the day comes where these claims can be substantiated, it is foolish to pine away for a Holy Grail of Stones relics which may be nothing more than the stuff of folklore.

I met Andrew Oldham three years ago and asked him why it was Mick and Keith that he pushed to be the band's songwriters and not Brian, who was after all the time, generally considered to be the band's most gifted musician and the closest thing to a 'leader' that they had in the early days.

He said that the 3 of them had tentative attempts at songwriting to begin with but that it was quite obvious from the start that Brian's attempts were evidence that it was a gift he simply didnt have and that his efforts were pretty much unlistenable. That would, to me, tie in with Keith's statement that Brian never actually brought a composition into the studio for the band to attempt and that whilst he may have attempted to write some songs, his personal insecurities were so great that he seemed unable to actually present anything for the band to work on as he couldnt handle any negative reaction to it. I think Keith said that he doubted that Brian ever completed any song that he worked on.