neptune Wrote:

> Oh, so now you say the slide on JSP was a lap
> steel. You've said before that it wasn't a lap
> steel. What is it then, Mathjis? There are a
> couple photographs circa 1968 showing Brian
> playing a lap steel. You're not convinving me at
> all that the slide on JSP was played by Keith . .
> .

No, he is saying it's hard to compare JP with those two songs as THEY feature lap steel.

Can you post a photo of Brian playing one? I've never seen that!

I may be completely off here, but I swore I've read an interview (likely Guitar Player) in the late 80s or 90s where Keith insists he's never played slide on a Stones album. He said something to the effect that he can sometimes get a slide sound with tuning, but that he can't play slide any more than he can play pedal steel.

This is a fantastic thread. Just last week I was listening to Beggar's Banquet all the way through for the first time in years--with headphones--and I was picking up the subtle harmonica parts. I wondered if that could be Brian. The content and the timing of this whole discussion have been great.

>> I swore I've read an interview (likely Guitar Player) in the late 80s or 90s
where Keith insists he's never played slide on a Stones album. <<

you must be misremembering that, Rocky Dijon -
Keith has often said there's always a better slide player than him in the band,
but he has definitely played slide in the studio as well as on stage.
i believe Mother's Little Helper is the first instance of him playing slide on a Stones track.

>> That is [Brian] playing the accoustic that you hear on [Prodigal Son]
not Keith. What do you all think? <<

drummer_dude, since you ask: i think (make that "i'm sure") that's wrong.


- 1969 (don't know who took it, sorry)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-16 19:45 by with sssoul.

Rocky Dijon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I may be completely off here, but I swore I've
> read an interview (likely Guitar Player) in the
> late 80s or 90s where Keith insists he's never
> played slide on a Stones album. He said something
> to the effect that he can sometimes get a slide
> sound with tuning, but that he can't play slide
> any more than he can play pedal steel.


Well, he's the only guitar player credited on Monkey Man.

He definitely played slide on several songs on Let It Bleed. Even on Exile, like Happy, maybe Casino Boogie? Don't remember... But then he pretty much quit, especially as Mick Taylor did it so well. This is getting off-topic a bit, but I definitely think Keith was at the top of his game in '68-69, when Brian's absence combined with the general creativity within the band and the rootsy rock 'n' roll business all around pushed his creativity and abilities forward, before Mick Taylor and smack made him lazy.

Great thread; this is Stones-boarding at it's best.
I just was listening to "Parchute Woman" through headphones because I wanted to hear the two harmonicas. Yes, they're both there of course, as are a couple guitars. But in the RIGHT channel there is clearly only one instrument. I am fairly decent at hearing correct instrum,ents but I'm not sure what is going on here. It sounds like a very trebly overdubbed Bass. At first I almost thought it was somekind of Tuba or Baritone Sax, then maybe and eletric piano. Then I hear that it is a string instrument. Stands to reason that it is a Bass guitar but it is a) overdubbed for sure and b) then what is the bttom in the besic instrumentation up the middle?. Is there another Bass in basic track or is that bottom just the combined acoustic guitar, drums? I have never read anyhting about something like this in any of the publications and websites out together by far more knowledgeable people than me.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

On the sacd version...

The bass is mixed left, I dont hear it as two seperate parts as the bass is just playing fills as opposed to keeping a solid rhythm.

Two acoustics mostly to the right, one through the philips tape machine the other recorded in a more traditional way. Then there's the electric lead guitar, with some slap back echo on it.

Charlies drums and the acoustics are providing the main continual thump throughout the song.

I believe the drums and the first acoustic were recorded through the tape machine first. But, I think the bass drum like thump heard on the left channel is an overdub.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-16 19:35 by His Majesty.

man trying to understand how they put these tracks together requires a PhD...

Thanks for the responses, but I thought Mick Taylor played slide on Monkey Man and Happy. I also wasn't aware there was a slide on Mother's Little Helper. I always thought it was Keith on acoustic and Brian on sitar. Thanks for any responses, its always great to learn the facts.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> neptune Wrote:
>
> > Oh, so now you say the slide on JSP was a lap
> > steel. You've said before that it wasn't a lap
> > steel. What is it then, Mathjis? There are a
> > couple photographs circa 1968 showing Brian
> > playing a lap steel. You're not convinving me
> at
> > all that the slide on JSP was played by Keith .
> .
> > .
>
> No, he is saying it's hard to compare JP with
> those two songs as THEY feature lap steel.
>
> Can you post a photo of Brian playing one? I've
> never seen that!

Indeed I stated that the slide on Love in Vain and Let it Bleed was a lapsteel, not JSP. Until this day I have never seen a picture of Keith, Brian or Taylor with a lap steel. Also, it wasn't a true lapsteel, but a lap steel called a Melobar, wich is something like a lapsteel, but it is mounted in a 45 degree angle so you can hang it from your neck and still play slide. According to Jimmy Miller Keith played the melobar on LIV and LIB, but I have always had my doubt about LIB, that sounds much more like standard slide on an electric guitar.

Mathijs

Rocky Dijon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the responses, but I thought Mick
> Taylor played slide on Monkey Man and Happy. I
> also wasn't aware there was a slide on Mother's
> Little Helper. I always thought it was Keith on
> acoustic and Brian on sitar. Thanks for any
> responses, its always great to learn the facts.

The guitar in MLH is an electric 12 string played with a slide. MM is Keith alone, as is 90% of Happy.

Mathijs

stoned_in_dc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> man trying to understand how they put these tracks
> together requires a PhD...


It feels kinda geeky at times, but this is part of what makes the Jimmy Miller-era Stones albums in general, and Beggars Banquet and Exile in particular, so great. The production, the instrumentation... they're masterpieces in so many ways and they stand up for zillions of careful listening hours.

Thanks Majesty for the response. I was hoping you'd see that Q. Of course - a piano up the middle. I knew I was hearing something besides acoustic guitar and drum up the middle. The Bass plays a strange role in the setup here. especially since this is a Bluesy shuffle-stomp. I'd expect if anything, the Bass would have been recorded first and also be the one keeping down the Stomp. But it provides the fills more than guitar.
Far as Keith on slide - of course he plays a lot of slide in that period. I read that his first performance on slide was on Mother's Little Helper on an electric 12 string.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-16 22:06 by ChelseaDrugstore.

Thanks as always, Mathijs. Good to know.

Not just the Miller era... How about Brian's harmonica mixed way down in the left channel (SACD) on Goin' Home? Spooky.

I love this stuff.

*********************************
And the queen is bravely shouting,
"What the hell is going on?"

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rocky Dijon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thanks for the responses, but I thought Mick
> > Taylor played slide on Monkey Man and Happy. I
> > also wasn't aware there was a slide on Mother's
> > Little Helper. I always thought it was Keith on
> > acoustic and Brian on sitar. Thanks for any
> > responses, its always great to learn the facts.
>
> The guitar in MLH is an electric 12 string played
> with a slide. MM is Keith alone, as is 90% of
> Happy.
>
> Mathijs

It sounds like there is another guitar playing the same line minus the slide as well.

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Majesty for the response. I was hoping
> you'd see that Q. Of course - a piano up the
> middle. I knew I was hearing something besides
> acoustic guitar and drum up the middle.

I dont hear any piano on that track!?

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The slide on Jigsaw Puzzle is anything but rigid
> and there is variation to what is being played.


Dude, the slide on JSP is rigid and there's not much variation there. You don't hear the typical Keith improvs anywhere on the track such as on Love in Vain, Monkey Man, LIB, Midnight Rambler, You Got the Silver, etc. You and Mathjis swear that the 'fills', 'bends', and style on the JSP slide is all Keith, but I don't know what you guys are talking about. I don't 'hear' Keith at all on that track other than the acoustic. Listen to Keith's slide on the LIB album and the slide on JSP and, after a while, you will begin to hear a distict difference.


> Keith has said he played the guitars on the track
> in a 1989 Radio interview/documentary about
> Beggars Banquet, there's no real reason to doubt
> that.


No real reason to doubt Keith, a man notorious for his lack of memory and/or scruples?


> PS: If you watch one of the sequesnces in One Plus
> One where Keith is playing electric in open E, I
> think it's the first time you see him playing his
> Custom les paul, you can hear many of the Jumpin'
> Jack Flash, Jigsaw Puzzle type fills.


Again, I don't hear any such fills on JSP. Keith always has played his fills and hooks close together as if he were shooting a machine gun. The fills on JSP are much more spread out and repetitive which is much more characteristic of Brian's style than Keith's.

>> Thanks for the responses, but I thought Mick Taylor played slide on Monkey Man and Happy.
I also wasn't aware there was a slide on Mother's Little Helper. <<

Rocky Dijon, the "track talk" section of this site might groove you a lot: [www.timeisonourside.com]
(scroll down a ways to find the link to "track talk")
it's comprised of quotes from the Stones and studio people, and although not every track has commentary,
and it doesn't go into everything one would love to know, and the quotes are sometimes confusing,
contradictory, or mis-statements, there's tons of fascinating details in there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-17 01:36 by with sssoul.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The guitar in MLH is an electric 12 string played
> with a slide.


I don't know about that. The MLH riff doesn't sound like a 12-string on slide, but it doesn't sound exactly like a sitar either. Keith says now that it's a 12-string on slide, but can we really believe everything he says? I wish Brian was still alive so he could tell us exactly what he played . . .

Brian's slide playing by 1968 was pretty fragile. The outtakes of No Expectations and the playing on Still a Fool show that.

The slide on Jigsaw Puzzle is too 'solid' to be Brian. The playing has an authority to it that is very Keith. It's freaky, but assured!

Brian is totally missing on Flash, Parachute & You Can't Always get in the Rock n Roll Circus. I've tried to pick him out for years, I just hear the outher four and Nicky (and sometimes Rocky!)

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brian's slide playing by 1968 was pretty fragile.
> The outtakes of No Expectations and the playing on
> Still a Fool show that.


There's nothing fragile about Brian's slide on NE.


> The slide on Jigsaw Puzzle is too 'solid' to be
> Brian. The playing has an authority to it that is
> very Keith. It's freaky, but assured!


So, you're saying the JSP slide is more solid than that on No Expectations? Put down the crack pipe already.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> His Majesty Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Brian's slide playing by 1968 was pretty
> fragile.
> > The outtakes of No Expectations and the playing
> on
> > Still a Fool show that.
>
>
> There's nothing fragile about Brian's slide on NE.

There's plenty fragility there, have you heard the outtake as well?

Zero point in arguing here...

LOL, boy do I feel confusedly stupid now...could have sworn I saw a piano mentioned.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LOL, boy do I feel confusedly stupid now...could
> have sworn I saw a piano mentioned.

With the amount of posts here it's understandible.

neptune Wrote:

There are a
> couple photographs circa 1968 showing Brian
> playing a lap steel.

Do you mean this photo by any chance?

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> His Majesty Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Brian's slide playing by 1968 was pretty
> fragile.
> > The outtakes of No Expectations and the playing
> on
> > Still a Fool show that.
>
>
> There's nothing fragile about Brian's slide on NE.
>
>
>
> > The slide on Jigsaw Puzzle is too 'solid' to be
> > Brian. The playing has an authority to it that
> is
> > very Keith. It's freaky, but assured!
>
>
> So, you're saying the JSP slide is more solid than
> that on No Expectations? Put down the crack pipe
> already.

uhm...the whole point on WHY the slide part of No Expectations is so encredibly beautiful is that it is so completely fragile! The part itself is peanuts to play, and frankly, all he does is slide from E to A to D chords in open E. But the timing is so beautiful, and the way it all sounds so shaky, fragile and emotional, THAT's what makes it so beautiful. It is so subdued, so lacking of energy and pump, so contrary to what you'd expect from a Rock and Roll guitar player, that's what makes it so beautiful!

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-17 21:59 by Mathijs.

Mathijs Wrote:

>
>
> uhm...the whole point on WHY the slide part of No
> Expectations is so encredibly beautiful is that it
> is so completely fragile! The part itself is
> peanuts to play, and frankly, all he does is slide
> from E to A to D chords in open E. But the timing
> is so beautiful, and the way it all sounds so
> shaky, fragtile and emotional THAT's what makes it
> so beautiful. It is so subdued, so lacking of
> energy and pump, so contrary to what you'd expect
> from a Rock and Roll guitar player, that's what
> makes it so beautiful!
>
> Mathijs

insightful, lovely observation and beautifully stated.