Ah, wonderfully said Mathijs!

Exactly what I was trying, but failing, to put across.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> His Majesty Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The slide on Jigsaw Puzzle is anything but
> rigid
> > and there is variation to what is being played.
>
>
>
> Dude, the slide on JSP is rigid and there's not
> much variation there. You don't hear the typical
> Keith improvs anywhere on the track such as on
> Love in Vain, Monkey Man, LIB, Midnight Rambler,
> You Got the Silver, etc. You and Mathjis swear
> that the 'fills', 'bends', and style on the JSP
> slide is all Keith, but I don't know what you guys
> are talking about. I don't 'hear' Keith at all on
> that track other than the acoustic. Listen to
> Keith's slide on the LIB album and the slide on
> JSP and, after a while, you will begin to hear a
> distict difference.

Listen to it again. Isolate the channel, and listen closely to the slide. You hear two things: the turn-arounds later so famously used on Honky Tonk Women and about every other open G track (check the 0:18, 0:27, 0:36 marks for example), and you hear a player whose not at all familiar with playing slide. Check the little phrases at 1:22, 1:30 and 1:37 for example. What you hear is a guy whom has great melodic sense and innovation, whom just discovered open tuning, and whom just discovered the slide, but just isn't skilled enough to play clean notes. This is just so completely Keith in '68. Brian woul have played a totally different part. He was echnically a far better slide player than Keith, his part would have sounded much neater and cleaner. Also, the slide part you hear is a rock guitar part, while Brian woul have played a part that would be much more steeped in blues.

Also pay attention to the encredible piano by the way!

Mathijs

I'm "going home" to re-savor the great Beggars Banquet this afternoon.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The guitar in MLH is an electric 12 string
> played
> > with a slide.
>
>
> I don't know about that. The MLH riff doesn't
> sound like a 12-string on slide, but it doesn't
> sound exactly like a sitar either. Keith says now
> that it's a 12-string on slide, but can we really
> believe everything he says? I wish Brian was
> still alive so he could tell us exactly what he
> played . . .


Neptune, are you a guitar player yourself? You don't sound like one. About MLH there's no need to believe Keith. Just grab an electric 12 and play the riff with a slide: there you have it.

And there's indeed a second line underneath it, doubling the 12 string slide. I guess they did that to make it more solid and stand out.

Mathijs

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> neptune Wrote:
>
> There are a
> > couple photographs circa 1968 showing Brian
> > playing a lap steel.
>
> Do you mean this photo by any chance?


Yes, His Majesty, that's the one. Thank you. I must admit, looking at the photo, that I was wrong. I always thought Brian was holding a lap steel in this picture, but upon closer inspection, it just looks like an acoustic. I'm sure Mathjis can tell us more about the pic. Thanks anyway and peace!

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> His Majesty Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > neptune Wrote:
> >
> > There are a
> > > couple photographs circa 1968 showing Brian
> > > playing a lap steel.
> >
> > Do you mean this photo by any chance?
>
>
> Yes, His Majesty, that's the one. Thank you. I
> must admit, looking at the photo, that I was
> wrong. I always thought Brian was holding a lap
> steel in this picture, but upon closer inspection,
> it just looks like an acoustic. I'm sure Mathjis
> can tell us more about the pic. Thanks anyway and
> peace!


Both Brian and Keith are playing early 60's (63 or 64) Gibson Hummingbirds. Brian just flipped his over to check something, maybe something was rattling or something. He wears the slide on his little finger, so he wasn't playing the guitar lap-style.

Jagger has mentioned several times that they were gathered in a cirkel when they played No Expectations, and this could be the session.

Mathijs

brian was allowed to be here, allowed to play, not allowed to be recorded.

he had already one foot in the graveyard. i don't know how, you, englishmen explain this. in french, we say "un pied dans la tombe".

well, he was unable to do something. look at the godard movie : you see him playing acoustic, but you don't hear anything at all. maybe there is a guitar part here and there. but only a few. poor brian. he lost everything, even his life.

Just listen to it, and appreciate Brian...no need to over analyze it....Its the Stones, arguably, at their peak....it dont get no better.

JR

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Both Brian and Keith are playing early 60's (63 or
> 64) Gibson Hummingbirds. Brian just flipped his
> over to check something, maybe something was
> rattling or something. He wears the slide on his
> little finger, so he wasn't playing the guitar
> lap-style.
>
> Jagger has mentioned several times that they were
> gathered in a cirkel when they played No
> Expectations, and this could be the session.
>
> Mathijs


Thanks Mathijs.

Why is this OT?

stone-relics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just listen to it, and appreciate Brian...no need
> to over analyze it....Its the Stones, arguably, at
> their peak....it dont get no better.
>
> JR


I'd have to agree with you Relics. BB always has been my favorite album. Even through some reflection over the years,it's still my fave.

Haristone Wrote:

look at the
> godard movie : you see him playing acoustic, but
> you don't hear anything at all. maybe there is a
> guitar part here and there. but only a few.

You dont hear anything once the band is playing as it's the camera crews mic's that are picking up the sound.

I guess it's likely we wouldn't hear anything good even if the sound source was from the studio desk because Brian is at times very off mic, or too close, sometimes touching it with his left hand/the guitar infact.

Haristone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> brian was allowed to be here, allowed to play, not
> allowed to be recorded.


Bill Wyman states in his book 'Stone Alone' that the Stones treated Brian in a cruel way, switching his mike off when he was recording of mixing him down finally. He says that this demoralized Brian who is described as an instable character anyway.

At the same time Wyman says repeatedly that Mick and Keith claimed the other band member's ideas as their own. I have always believed him in that respect and never considered him as greedy as other people on this board.

The chief songweiters in a band tend to do that. "Claim other's ideas as their own". And IMO it makes sense. The main writer knows that it is he who sees the big picture, the whole of the moon.
E.g the riff in JJF. Supposedly Bill was playing it on the piano. Keith walks by says "Cool, keep playing that". it takes Keith, the writer to see the potential, to hear the vocal on top, to hear the power that uyltimately is in that riff, to add a chorus, to even know what is verse or chorus etc. Other than that you just have a bass player idly tickling the ivories with 3 notes in a pretty basic pattern.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

jagger's vocals on Beggars are arguably his best !
The bass on Jigsaw Puzzle is also superb....

Brian didn't really play on much on Beggars. Sure he is credited with some stuff but it's probably something he would have performed in a few sessions...
I guess he missed plenty of other sessions !

We see him 'not appearing' in the last stones part of One Plus One.

I still view the May 1968 bust as a watermark for the final nails in the coffin of Brian and The Rolling Stones.

His change in appearance from June - December is pretty startling!

Brian could have done much more hadnt he been som in love with Anita, sensitive and delicate when it came to the Glimmers ripping everything (they wrote great songs together I know) in their way (if Brian, Bill, Ry, Nicky, Billy, ronnie, Mick Taylor or someone else played something they liked they took it and put jagger/richards on it).

You know what I have never full understand: that Brian's absense after June 1968, and his lack of playing on BB is blamed on Mick and Keith. You always read how "cruel" they treated him, and that they turned off his mike and whatever. But what about the option that Brian maybe really WAS a physical and mental wreck after the 67 and 68 busts? What if it is really true that if ever he came to a session he was to stoned to play anything? Jagger and Richards were at an artistic peak, and desperately were trying to make a great album, and what if brian really was just totally incapable?

I know the members of the band I am in will do the same to me if i kept on comming to rehearsels too stoned to play. They will also make remarks, they will also shut my amp down, and in the end they will throw me out. But are my band members then to blame for this? Or is it my fault?

Mathijs

They get the blame because they are still alive.

PS: We know he had serious psychological problems, take a read of his psychologists reports relating to his 67 bust for confirmation. I think some extracts were even printed in the papers at the time, yikes!

The fact he was in and out of the Priory from 1967 through 1968 and into 1969 says a lot.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-18 18:32 by His Majesty.

Actually they never got the blame and I dont think they get the blame now either. The usual explenation is that he was busted, was insane, was sad and poor disturbed man who beat women up, used drugs and couldt play anymore etc etc. It's like losing anita to Keith didnt matter, Mick being the superego and probably a real @#$%& at times (not just to Brian), Keith being a pretty cruel and rough guy etc dint matter. Of course it did. And they fired him! Why wouldnt that matter after havein treated him like garbage for a copuple of years? He was sensitive, and couldnt handle the Anita thing, drugs and his own big ego but also the fact that he probably really wanted to contribute to a band very unlike the Beatles.

Here's what I've gathered:

Sympathy For The Devil take 10:Backing Vocals
No Expectations take 1:Acoustic Slide Guitar
Dear Doctor take 1:Harmonica
Parachute Woman take 1:Harmonica (but Jagger plays the second harmonica at the end)
Jig-Saw Puzzle:Mellotron. As far as the slide guitar goes, the basic tracks from the satanic sessions show that only the drums, the bass, the piano, one acoustic guitar and one slide guitar were recorded live. All the rest was overdubbed. Either Jagger is playing the acoustic and Keith the electric, but perhaps the acoustic sounds too good and well played, so to me it's unlikely that Jagger played it (as far as I know, in 68 he was just beginning to learn the guitar); or Keith the acoustic and Brian the slide, I don't know. But it sounds way off for a slide guitar, so I'd guess Keith played it, and Jagger played one acoustic while singing, and it was later removed and overdubbed by Keith. Who knows?
Street Fighting Man:Sitar, Tamboura.
Stray Cat Blues:Mellotron
He does not appear on Factory Girl and Salt Of The Earth.

oops, wrong thread



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-01 13:54 by Koen.