His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
>
> > Brian does most probably NOT sing on Sympathy,
> as
> > doesn't Anita Pallenberg, Marianne Faithful,
> > Charlie Watts or Bill Wyman. The shot with all
> > people gathered around the mike was completely
> > staged for the movie, and you actually see
> Watts
> > loking incredibly bored and out of place, and
> > nobody is actually really singing. Jimmy Miller
> > has stated in a early 90's interview that it
> was
> > Mick, Keith and him singing.
> >
> > Mathijs
>
> I've read you saying that before, and yes, it does
> look staged.
>
> I also think that Brian being there is staged in a
> way, he HAD to make an appearance for the film
> really. Interesting that they included the footage
> of him missing though.
>
> But, I believe they are singing in the footage as
> it's the camera crews mics that are picking up the
> sound.

There some that are singing for real, if I remember correctly it's Jagger, Richards, Anita and a guy with a hat, but that's it. I really think they redid the singing again later on, with only Jagger, Richards and Miller present.


>
> I have doubts that this made it to the final album
> though, although they kept some of the chatter for
> the start? Did Jimmy, Mick and Keith overdub
> these vocals at Sunset Sound later on?

I understand that most vocals of Beggars and Let it Bleed were recorded at Sunset during the mixing stage. Also I don't think the intro chatter is intentional, not something "picked up" and used afterwords.

Mathijs

I think Michael Cooper is one of the other people around the mic, Marianne's wearing a hat... and at one point Brian kinda gently moves his hand towards her ass but goes to her waste hah.

What did BJ contribute to Beggars Banquet?

I always heard he contributed the liquor and the women...or at least "one" woman...




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-16 01:31 by NumberOneStonesFan.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Big Al Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The who of Symathy For The Devil was recorded
> at
> > Olypic Sound from 4-10th June 1968. According
> to
> > Martin Elliott's book, it wasn't worked on
> after
> > that.
>
> But from what I understand, the entire album was
> mixed(with some overdubs, ie the gospel choir on
> Salt of the Earth) and mastered at Sunset Sound
> after the Olympic Sessions.


I didn't think the Stones recorded in the States in 1968. According to the book they didn't, but you may be right. I'm no expert myself!

>> According to the book they didn't <<

nzentgraf.de states that they did record some vocal overdubs in LA: [www.nzentgraf.de]
(click 1968 in the list on the left, then scroll down to july)

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> far out, everybody - but why in the world is this
> thread labelled "OT"??
> are we now using that to label the rare threads
> that *are* Stones-related? :E


that is funny sssoul.....why the heck is this labeled OT?.....I mean, how can this subject possibly be OT?

anyhooooo, it is a great subject regarding a great album Big Al

We can't know for sure unless the actual reel to reels turn up, but I always thought the '68 Sunset Sound session was to overdub the back up singers on Salt of the Earth and for Eddie Kramer to remix the album as Jimmy Miller wasn't satisfied with Glyn Johns' original mix. I believe Glyn Johns spoke about this in an interview with Musician back in the 90s. I also thought the alternate mix of Beggars that turned up on bootleg CD in the mid 90s was Glyn Johns' original mix. I thought this was what was largely used for the DSD remaster of the album and accounted for the alleged speed correction. There's a lot of assumptions here so feel free to correct me.

His Majesty, excellent work! What a enjoy to read!

I also go for the distinction between significant contribution and non-significant contribution. It is true that techically Brian was present in the sessions, and in most (8/10) of the released cuts, but only "No Expectations" was a song he really left his mark which significantly shaped the result. The Jagger quote most probably refers to that - perhaps it was the last time Mick thought, that "bloody hell, Brian, you shine, man".

There are some Brian Jones fans who think that Brian contributed much imore than he is credited in their turning back from psychelic to raw blues-oriented music, a'la JJF-single/Beggars album, and that he really was motivated and in high spirits at the time, even though there is not much indication of that to be heard in the final results. Jimmy Miller has commented something like that "Brian was all over in Beggars Banquet". I don't quite buy that, because I think it was more like (a) a general changing of the climate back to 'basics' (Dylan's Basement Tapes circulating, as well Robert Johnson's 'vol. 2', The Beatles, the appearence of country rock and Velvet Underground, etc); (b) Mick and Keith, and they absolutely fabulous songs,(c) Keith's experiments with acoustic guitar and open tunings, which really turned the boat back to 'roots'.

I also go for the interpretation that the May 1968 bust was the turning point, and after that Brian emerged physically and mentally from the band - and wasn't interested anymore to turn up in sessions, etc.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 23:26 by Doxa.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brian does not play the slide heard on Jigsaw
> Puzzle or Salt of the Earth, that is without a
> doubt Keith Richards playing.


I think Brian played slide on Jig-Saw Puzzle. The strummed bass notes followed by the high screechers is a trademark of Brian's slide playing. He does the same thing on many other tracks where he plays slide, including Little Red Rooster. One other important thing concerns matters of style. Whenever Brian played any lead guitar part, slide or not, he would play the same exact notes and chords throughout the entire length of a song, using the same notes/chords for verses and choruses respectively. Usually, he would play the main riff during the verse and switch to some other sequence of notes for the chorus (and then back to the main riff for the verse). He never deviated from this pattern! He does this in practically every track he plays lead, whether he used guitar, sitar, dulcimer, etc. Listen to The Last Time, Get Off Of My Cloud, No Expectations, I Can't Be Satisfied, Paint It, Black, Under My Thumb, Lady Jane, 2000 Light Years From Home, etc.- it's the same exact notes played over and over and over again. If you listen to the slide on Jig-Saw Puzzle, the slide follows a certain pattern where one chord sequence is used for verse and another for the chorus. It's the same notes/chords used repeatedly throughout the entire length of the track. This was Brian's lead playing style. However, Keith played lead entirely different, using a wider range of licks during the course of a song. In this sense, Keith was more a traditional lead player than Brian, who would just rigidly stick to the same chord patterns during a song. If you listen to Keith, he'll NEVER play the same sequence of chords/notes twice during a song. This is evident on all tracks where Keith plays slide such as on the LIB album. Listen to Keith's slide on Love in Vain, Let It Bleed, Monkey Man, You Got the Silver- you got all sorts of various licks flying all over the place! These slide bits are not at all like the very rigid lead slide on Jig-Saw Puzzle. Thus, that's why I think it's Brian playing sldie og JSP . . .

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> His Majesty Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Brian does not play the slide heard on Jigsaw
> > Puzzle or Salt of the Earth, that is without a
> > doubt Keith Richards playing.
>
>
> I think Brian played slide on Jig-Saw Puzzle. The
> strummed bass notes followed by the high
> screechers is a trademark of Brian's slide
> playing. He does the same thing on many other
> tracks where he plays slide, including Little Red
> Rooster. One other important thing concerns
> matters of style. Whenever Brian played any lead
> guitar part, slide or not, he would play the same
> exact notes and chords throughout the entire
> length of a song, using the same notes/chords for
> verses and choruses respectively. Usually, he
> would play the main riff during the verse and
> switch to some other sequence of notes for the
> chorus (and then back to the main riff for the
> verse). He never deviated from this pattern! He
> does this in practically every track he plays
> lead, whether he used guitar, sitar, dulcimer,
> etc. Listen to The Last Time, Get Off Of My
> Cloud, No Expectations, I Can't Be Satisfied,
> Paint It, Black, Under My Thumb, Lady Jane, 2000
> Light Years From Home, etc.- it's the same exact
> notes played over and over and over again. If you
> listen to the slide on Jig-Saw Puzzle, the slide
> follows a certain pattern where one chord sequence
> is used for verse and another for the chorus.
> It's the same notes/chords used repeatedly
> throughout the entire length of the track. This
> was Brian's lead playing style. However, Keith
> played lead entirely different, using a wider
> range of licks during the course of a song. In
> this sense, Keith was more a traditional lead
> player than Brian, who would just rigidly stick to
> the same chord patterns during a song. If you
> listen to Keith, he'll NEVER play the same
> sequence of chords/notes twice during a song.
> This is evident on all tracks where Keith plays
> slide such as on the LIB album. Listen to Keith's
> slide on Love in Vain, Let It Bleed, Monkey Man,
> You Got the Silver- you got all sorts of various
> licks flying all over the place! These slide bits
> are not at all like the very rigid lead slide on
> Jig-Saw Puzzle. Thus, that's why I think it's
> Brian playing sldie og JSP . . .


thats really interesting....

i think brian did far more than he gets credit for.. most likely after he died the stones began rewriting the history books expunging brian...same as when mick taylor left....

and why would jimmy miller say brian was all over beggars if he wasn't?? more than likely jimmy was telling the truth but mick/keith are trying to say he had no role so as to move on ..its survival

The slide on Jigsaw Puzzle is anything but rigid and there is variation to what is being played.

Keith has said he played the guitars on the track in a 1989 Radio interview/documentary about Beggars Banquet, there's no real reason to doubt that.

Something that may back up Brain playing is wether or not the outtakes feature slide, there's a whole CD of them recording the song, do they all feature acoustic guitar and electric slide?

PS: If you watch one of the sequesnces in One Plus One where Keith is playing electric in open E, I think it's the first time you see him playing his Custom les paul, you can hear many of the Jumpin' Jack Flash, Jigsaw Puzzle type fills.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 23:49 by His Majesty.

Here's a quote attributed to Jimmy Miller, it's from the inside of a bootleg so take what you wish from it...

"We'd be doing let's say, A blues thing. He'd walk in with a sitar, which was totally irrelevant to what we were doing and want to play it. I used to try to accomodate him. I would isolate him, put him in a booth and not record him onto any track that we really needed. And the others, particurarly Mick and Keith would often say to me 'just tell him to piss off and get the hell out iof here'"


Regardless of who played what, everything on the album is GREAT!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 23:46 by His Majesty.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> His Majesty Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Brian does not play the slide heard on Jigsaw
> > Puzzle or Salt of the Earth, that is without a
> > doubt Keith Richards playing.
>
>
> I think Brian played slide on Jig-Saw Puzzle. The
> strummed bass notes followed by the high
> screechers is a trademark of Brian's slide
> playing. He does the same thing on many other
> tracks where he plays slide, including Little Red
> Rooster. One other important thing concerns
> matters of style. Whenever Brian played any lead
> guitar part, slide or not, he would play the same
> exact notes and chords throughout the entire
> length of a song, using the same notes/chords for
> verses and choruses respectively. Usually, he
> would play the main riff during the verse and
> switch to some other sequence of notes for the
> chorus (and then back to the main riff for the
> verse). He never deviated from this pattern! He
> does this in practically every track he plays
> lead, whether he used guitar, sitar, dulcimer,
> etc. Listen to The Last Time, Get Off Of My
> Cloud, No Expectations, I Can't Be Satisfied,
> Paint It, Black, Under My Thumb, Lady Jane, 2000
> Light Years From Home, etc.- it's the same exact
> notes played over and over and over again. If you
> listen to the slide on Jig-Saw Puzzle, the slide
> follows a certain pattern where one chord sequence
> is used for verse and another for the chorus.
> It's the same notes/chords used repeatedly
> throughout the entire length of the track. This
> was Brian's lead playing style. However, Keith
> played lead entirely different, using a wider
> range of licks during the course of a song. In
> this sense, Keith was more a traditional lead
> player than Brian, who would just rigidly stick to
> the same chord patterns during a song. If you
> listen to Keith, he'll NEVER play the same
> sequence of chords/notes twice during a song.
> This is evident on all tracks where Keith plays
> slide such as on the LIB album. Listen to Keith's
> slide on Love in Vain, Let It Bleed, Monkey Man,
> You Got the Silver- you got all sorts of various
> licks flying all over the place! These slide bits
> are not at all like the very rigid lead slide on
> Jig-Saw Puzzle. Thus, that's why I think it's
> Brian playing sldie og JSP . . .


But the thing is: it has Keith stamped all overe it. It is just completely typical Keith. All the little turn-arounds, all the little explorations of the open tuning, all the little riffs that later turned up in Honky Tonk Woman, You Got the Silver -the slide part is typically Keith, and so typically not Brian Jones. Brian would most often only play slided chords in open tuning. He would never play little melodies, but hit the complete chord, just like he does on Little Red Rooster or No Expectations. Whenever Brian played little melodies on slide, it was always in standard tuning.

By the way, it is hard to compare this slide with the slide on Love in Vain and Let it Bleed, as this was played on a melobar, which is a lap steel slide. The technique and sound is completely different than regular slide.

Mathijs

Other than King Beee I cant think of any other standard tuning slide parts by Brian?

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something that may back up Brain playing is wether
> or not the outtakes feature slide, there's a whole
> CD of them recording the song, do they all feature
> acoustic guitar and electric slide?

There is actually an outtake of Jig-Saw Puzzle with pretty much everything except the slide (which I actually like better). I've also always thought it was Keith playing. I doubt that they'd let Brian overdub that guitar.

Regarding Dear Doctor: on the widely circulating "take one" outtake of this song, you can hear Jagger talking on one channel, and someone who I think sounds like Brian responding, laughing a bit, at the other side. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? If it's actually Brian, he probably played the harmonica.

By the way, not only Jagger has incorrectly underrated Brian's contributions to Banquet. In a '77 interview for Guitar Player magazine, Keith says Brian contributed to "maybe one or two" tracks on the album...

LieB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> By the way, not only Jagger has incorrectly
> underrated Brian's contributions to Banquet. In a
> '77 interview for Guitar Player magazine, Keith
> says Brian contributed to "maybe one or two"
> tracks on the album...


thank you! this is my point precisely...

its awful convenient for keith and mick who know their run of great albums starts with beggars to try to draw a line between pre and post beggars by saying brian was no longer around...

people on this board seem to buy the story but i would exercise extreme caution in believing anything from stones camp.. they've shown many times they will do anything to protec their interest (i.e., airbrushing wyamn out of pictures just recently!)...

>> people on this board seem to buy the story <<

hm - well, if it's any comfort, it surprised me to read on this thread
that anyone thought Brian was largely absent from the Beggars sessions.
and since the person started the thread expressly because he doubted that,
i reckon the notion isn't all that ubiquitous.
what exactly he played on it is debated, obviously ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-16 01:45 by with sssoul.

People forget things in the haze of time or get them mixed up, or certain questions and the context in which they are asked may bring back a memory they had previously forgot about.

Can you remember every specific day from 10 - 20 - 30 years ago?

This for stoned in dc



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-16 01:59 by His Majesty.

The reason I started this thread was because other than No Expectations, there doesn't appear to be anything 100% concrete as to Brian’s exact involvement on the other nine tracks. We all know he's probably contributes harp, mellotron or whatever else on some of the others, but I just thought it'd be a fun thing to discuss and read what others opinions are. It's proved to be a successful thread so far.

yah.. i know its for me...

of course i can't remember everything

but the stones i think exhibit a pattern of mendacity when it comes to the contributions of brian jones, mick taylor and others....

its very deliberately executed.... i think...

i mean they're not going to say the truth which is more along the lines of what jimmy miller was saying in that quote about locking brian up in a room and not paying attention to him....

perhaps because of this we got better albums..maybe it was a blessing in musical terms that brian left the band etc...

but the stones it seems to me in various public pronouncements like to put down brian... state or imply that he hardly was there.. the truth is more like- probably- he was there and he was contributing in his way but they didn't care because they were writing the songs and had a different idea about what they wanted.. but they're not going to say that publicly are they?

it seems to me kind of common sense.. even when brian's parts are on beggars a lot of times they are low in the mix etc.. he was there but they mixed him out!!!!!! then after he dies they literally begin to write him out of the history.... they hardly ever have anything at all good to say about the guy- compare to say ian stewart whose musical contributions i have to believe are far less as much as i like him- and i think brian jones was a key member of the band....obviously its understandable a bit becuase they loved ian very much while evidently they did not like brian at all.. but whether they like him or not- and i can understand how and why it would happen- to write him out like they intentionally try to do is silly... he was there...he did show up to the studio...he wasn't on only one song was he?

i think i've exchaused my talking points!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-16 02:11 by stoned_in_dc.

I don't think Brian has been forgotten. Jagger has talked about Brian’s contribution to No Expectations and no one has ever said hat he wasn't involved elsewhere on the record. He is of course, but from what I've read on this thread, despite his constant prescience on maybe 8 or so of the tracks, other the one already mentioned, his input is fairly minimal. A bit of harp here.. a mellotron part there.

Big Al Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think Brian has been forgotten. Jagger has
> talked about Brian’s contribution to No
> Expectations and no one has ever said hat he
> wasn't involved elsewhere on the record. He is of
> course, but from what I've read on this thread,
> despite his constant prescience on maybe 8 or so
> of the tracks, other the one already mentioned,
> his input is fairly minimal. A bit of harp here..
> a mellotron part there.

Yes, that's whats sad, he's like a guest musician.

>> he wasn't on only one song was he? <<

no, stoned_in_dc - but who says Brian is only on one track on Beggars?

and when he's low in the mix, is there something wrong with that? which parts of which tracks on Beggars
do you feel should have been brought out a lot more in the mix? as for the parts that he played
that weren't used at all, can you tell us which of those bits were real solid stuff that should have been kept?
any examples of that kind of thing that you can upload will be welcomed for sure.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> he wasn't on only one song was he? <<
>
> no, stoned_in_dc - but who says Brian is only on
> one track on Beggars?
>
> and when he's low in the mix, is there something
> wrong with that? which parts of which tracks on
> Beggars
> do you feel should have been brought out a lot
> more in the mix? as for the parts that he played
> that weren't used at all, can you tell us which of
> those bits were real solid stuff that should have
> been kept?
> any examples of that kind of thing that you can
> upload will be welcomed for sure.

of course not.

i've read many times on this board people writing that brian was hardly on beggars, that he was falling apart by then and not showing up to the studio, etc... well if he's in the mix then he did show up.... i'm not saying mick and keith and jimmy were wrong to marginalize his contributions.. maybe they were not very good..i don't know.. but he was around..he showed up for work.. that then he was mixed low... well thats a different story

>> i've read many times on this board people writing that Brian was hardly on Beggars,
that he was falling apart by then and not showing up to the studio, etc. <<

obviously i have no idea what percent of the time he was physically in the studio;
neither (i think) do any of us. it's obvious that he was there at least some of the time.
but even so - even though i know Brian is on more than a couple of tracks -
i can also say that he's hardly on Beggars: "a bit of harp here, a bit of mellotron there"
and he was indeed falling apart by then.

love & light & thanks & praises to Brian, and good night to everyone else.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-16 02:42 by with sssoul.

Spot on as always miss sssoul, sleep well.

I thought Brian played the accoustic guitar on Prodigal Son I read it was his last stab at the guitar. That is him playing the accoustic that you hear on the recording not Keith. What do you all think?

drummer_dude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought Brian played the accoustic guitar on
> Prodigal Son I read it was his last stab at the
> guitar. That is him playing the accoustic that you
> hear on the recording not Keith. What do you all
> think?

No way!

There is actually two acoustics there though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-16 03:19 by His Majesty.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> By the way, it is hard to compare this slide with
> the slide on Love in Vain and Let it Bleed, as
> this was played on a melobar, which is a lap steel
> slide. The technique and sound is completely
> different than regular slide.
>
> Mathijs


Oh, so now you say the slide on JSP was a lap steel. You've said before that it wasn't a lap steel. What is it then, Mathjis? There are a couple photographs circa 1968 showing Brian playing a lap steel. You're not convinving me at all that the slide on JSP was played by Keith . . .

plot thickens...