I'm sure this subject hasd been discussed countless times, but I always enjoy reading people imnsights and it is genuinly something I've always being curious about.

Would I be correct in thinking that Brian is definitely on the following tracks?

Sympathy For The Devil (backing "woo's" etc)
No Expectations (well documented that he's on slide here)
Street Fighting Man (Sitar)
Stray Cat Blues (Melotron, but I can't hear it)
------------------------------------------------------------
Now, is he on the following...?

Dear Doctor (harmonica?)
Paracute Woman (harmonica?)
Jigsaw Puzzle (slide?)
Prodigal Son (I've read here that he could be playing harmonica?)

The ONLY two tunes that he appears to definitely NOT be on are Factory Girl and Salt Of The Earth .

i am definetly interested to know brian jones' contributions on this and any other album if anyone knows..

on the most udnerrated stone thread i asked who plays harmonica on doncha bother me..anyone know? sounds like mick but is it?

681206A 6th December: THE ROLLING STONES.
LP ‘Beggars Banquet’ (Decca SKL 4955). Producer: Jimmy Miller.
A: - Sympathy For The Devil (MJ/KR)
- No Expectations (MJ/KR)
- Dear Doctor (MJ/KR)
- Parachute Woman (MJ/KR)
- Jig-Saw Puzzle (MJ/KR)
B: - Street Fighting Man (MJ/KR)
- Prodigal Son (Rev. Robert Wilkins)
- Stray Cat Blues (MJ/KR)
- Factory Girl (MJ/KR)
- Salt Of The Earth (MJ/KR)
Line-up ‘Sympathy For The Devil’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr, bass, bvoc)/BJ (bvoc)/BW
(maracas, bvoc)/CW (dr, bvoc)/Nicky Hopkins (p, bvoc)/Anita Pallenberg
(bvoc)/Marianne Faithfull (bvoc)/Rocky Dijon (congas)
Line-up ‘Street Fighting Man’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr, bass)/BJ (sitar, tamboura)/
CW (dr)/Nicky Hopkins (p)/Dave Mason (shehani)
Line-up ‘No Expectations’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr)/BJ (gtr)/BW (bass)/CW (perc)/
Nicky Hopkins (p)
Line-up ‘Dear Doctor’: MJ (voc, tamb)/KR (gtr, bvoc)/BW (bass)/BJ (harm)/
CW (dr)/Nicky Hopkins (tack p)/Dave Mason (gtr)
Line-up ‘Parachute Woman’: MJ (voc, harm)/KR (gtr)/BW (bass)/CW (dr)/
Line-up ‘Jig-Saw Puzzle’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr, bass)/BJ (gtr, mellotron)/BW (synth)
CW (dr)/Nicky Hopkins (p)
Line-up ‘Street Fighting Man’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr, bass)/BJ (sitar, tamboura)/
CW (dr)/Nicky Hopkins (p)/Dave Mason (shehani)
Line-up ‘Prodigal Son’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr)/BJ (harm)/CW (dr)
Line-up ‘Stray Cat Blues’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr)/BJ (mellotron)/BW (bass)/
CW (dr)/Nicky Hopkins (p)/Rocky Dijon (congas)
Line-up ‘Factory Girl’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr)/BW (bass)/CW (perc)/Rocky Dijon
(congas)/Dave Mason (mandolin)/Rick Grech (fiddle)
Line-up ‘Salt Of The Earth’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr, voc)/BW (bass)/CW (dr)/Nicky
Hopkins (p)/Watts Street Gospel Choir (bvoc)

stoned_in_dc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i am definetly interested to know brian jones'
> contributions on this and any other album if
> anyone knows..
>
> on the most udnerrated stone thread i asked who
> plays harmonica on doncha bother me..anyone know?
> sounds like mick but is it?

I've always thought that any song with two guitars means that Mick is on harp and any with one means its Brian. Thats probably completely wrong, but that is the way I've always viewed it.

Thanks Idiot Wind. So it seems I was pretty much correct.

Anyone else have an insight?

Was it Brian that started the pie throwing at the photo shoot?

Edith Grove Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Was it Brian that started the pie throwing at the
> photo shoot?


I beleive so. There is actually footage of it.

seems like all the talk about brian jones not being involved with beggars is just that....

I hear the mellotron on StrayCat during the congas/bass break especially, and on through to the fade (sounds earthier than what he was getting on Satanic or We Love You)...Also, Jigsaw: it's so dense, and with its own keyboard or something droning in the background as it builds, I'm not certain how many guitars are on there (4?) but the main slide part sounds like Keith...Frequently by this time Brian's harmonica would be mixed lower than Mick's, I have to listen close to see if I can even determine which gtr BJ might be Of course Bill is (according to Nico's site) supposedly on synth there as well. I mean turn it up during the long fade, it gets pretty foggy but you do hear guitars against some 'tron/synth...Of course it (BJ's contributions) was a lot less, on most cuts, central than on Satanic outside of NE & SFM. Even JJF at least had his audible electric guitar and sax on the flip side...

I think that part of the confusion over Brian's contribution to Beggars Banquet stems from Mick Jagger's comments about Brian’s last meaningful contribution being the slide on No Expectations. I think some misinterpret that as meaning he's not on anything else, which of course, isn't true.

This is what Brian is most likely to have played on Beggars Banquet:


Sympathy for the Devil - Near inaudible acoustic guitar and backing vocals... this can all be seen in the One Plus One footage.

It is likely however that Mick Jagger, Keith Richards and Jimmy Miller re-did the "whoo whoo" backing vocals during the mixing sessions at Sunset Sound mid 1968.


No Expectations - slide guitar


Dear Doctor - It is either Brian or Dave Mason on harmonica.

Dave is sometimes credited with playing acoustic guitar on this track, but there is only one heard on the outakes and the released version, but if he is supposed to have been present then perhaps he plays the harmonica.

Compare these two harmonica tracks...

Dear Doctor: [www.esnips.com]

Don't Be Sad(Confirmed as Dave Mason on harmonica): [www.esnips.com]


Parachute Woman - Brian most likely plays the harmonica(mixed fairly low) throughout the song, but Mick Jagger plays the loud wailing end part. Brian's playing can still be heard at this point as well though.


Jigsaw Puzzle - The strange whining sound heard on the left channel is a MKII Mellotron played by Brian using the flute sound.


It has been mentioned elsewhere that this is a moog synthesizer played by Bill Wyman, but The Rolling Stones did not buy one until September 1968(see link below) which was used by Mick on the soundtrack for the Kenneth Anger film Invocation of my Demon Brother the same moog was also used on the soundtrack for the film Performance and can actually be seen in the film.





Street Fighting Man - Brain plays both sitar and tamboura, there is clear sonic evidence of multi tracking with regards to these instruments.

The sitar can be heard on the right channel mixed in the with the distorted acoustic guitars. It sounds like it was recorded as per Keith's description through the philips tape machine.



"The basic track of that was done on a mono cassette with very distorted overrecording, on a Phillips with no limiters. Brian is playing sitar, it twangs away. He's holding notes that wouldn't come through if you had a board, you wouldn't be able to fit it in. But on a cassette if you just move the people, it does. Cut in the studio and then put on a tape. Started putting percussion and bass on it. That was really an electronic track, up in the realms." - Keith Richards, 1971

listen closely and you can hear the the sitar from very early on before the singing begins at 00.5 secs The sitar also plays the same melody as the piano after the chorus's. It can actually be heard throughout the entire track if you listen close enough.

The tamboura is on the right channel, appearing during the chorus's and the piano motifs which follow them.

Prodigal Son - Brian most likely plays the harmonica that you can hear in the background.


Stray Cat Blues - MKII Mellotron with the (saxophone, trombone, trumpet) mixed brass sound. He is heard from the just after the first chorus(on the right channel) playing jarring chords similar to his playing on We Love You, then more reserved playing for the fade out.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Brian does not play the slide heard on Jigsaw Puzzle or Salt of the Earth, that is without a doubt Keith Richards playing. Nicky Hopkins or Dave Mason play the MKII Mellotron on Factory Girl, using the rarely heard mandolin sound, yes that is a mellotron! Rick Grech of Family(who Dave was producing at the time) plays Violin on the song.

So, Brian is possibly on 8 of the 10 tracks on Beggars Banquet!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-05-20 15:11 by His Majesty.

Here's various songs that feature the MKII Mellotron mandolin sound...

[www.esnips.com]

As an aside to Beggars, I think it's likely that he plays the part at the end of Jumpin' Jack Flash on a mellotron using the accordian setting, I dont hear him on guitar really!

He also plays soprano saxophone on Child of the Moon.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 19:07 by His Majesty.

why is this thread "OT"?

it really takes the cake how the living stones always seem to insist, and people on this board always pass it along, that brian jones could barely stand up while beggars was being recorded... yet he was clearly there.. that they decided to mix him real low or marginalize his contributions is another thing entirely..

far out, everybody - but why in the world is this thread labelled "OT"??
are we now using that to label the rare threads that *are* Stones-related? :E

in so far as there's a misunderstanding about Brian being around during the Beggars sessions
(which kind of surprises to me - it's LIB he was only on a couple of tracks of)
then i think Big Al's point about one possible source of it is interesting -
Mick says No Expectations is the last thing he remembers Brian contributing meaningfully to,
and just because it's the second track doesn't mean it was recorded early in the sessions
(which is obvious, of course, but it may be something most people never think about).
at the same time, as HM notes, not all of what Brian was "technically present on" at this point
qualifies as a significant contribution to the tracks.

but go on go on - i'm makin popcorn.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 20:38 by with sssoul.

Well if not a synth what the hell is (Bill?) playing on 2000 Light Years (in addition to B's mellotron)? How do we know this is the first synth the RS bought? Hell the Monkees had one in '67. And it sounds to me like Brian on harmonica on DD (compare his other harm. trax, and Mason's on the 2nd Traffic album). And the guitars are aplenty on JP, so I concur it's KR's slide, and up-front acoustic, but more appear as the song progresses, and it's a wash of sound by the last couple minutes.
Always wondered what that wailing is on JP....Can't check the link, but it's pretty otherworldly!

I believe I hear BJ on gtr plus 2 Keith tracks on JJF. Bill is credited with organ.

I think things REALLY changed following his May 1968 bust. I also think too much is made of Anita leaving him, obviously that screwed up the band dynamics, but really, as far as I can see, it's the 3 or 4 busts he endured during 1967 - 1968 that did the most damage...

oh, and the drink and drugs of course!

well i think "anita leaving him.." is one way to write it...

certainly keith was not an innocent bystander...

for a long time i thought brian's involvement with beggars had been marginal but clearly he must have been showing up to the studio..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 19:16 by stoned_in_dc.

Nah Nicky Hopkins on piano and organ for JJF.

The synth like tones heard on Satanic Majesties is an oscillator which is basically an electronic device that produces a sine wave that can be altered via the pitch wheel.

It would look something like this.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 19:37 by His Majesty.

stoned_in_dc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well i think "anita leaving him.." is one way to
> write it...
>
> certainly keith was not an innocent bystander...
>
> for a long time i thought brian's involvement with
> beggars had been marginal but clearly he must have
> been showing up to the studio..

Well, if you;'re going to screw other women, and beat up your supposed love, having her leave you is to be expected. :



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 19:19 by His Majesty.

H.M. Yes on that last post, look at how self-posessed (in public) Keith especially was, standing up in court with his "We do not accept your petty morals" defiance, whereas Brian, narcissistically fragile, tranquilized, depressed, his bandmate now partnered with his lover, got crushed, beat down, paranoid, etc with the harassment...and maybe til the very end (relief post Stones?) medicated it all.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> stoned_in_dc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > well i think "anita leaving him.." is one way
> to
> > write it...
> >
> > certainly keith was not an innocent
> bystander...
> >
> > for a long time i thought brian's involvement
> with
> > beggars had been marginal but clearly he must
> have
> > been showing up to the studio..
>
> Well, if you;'re going to screw other women, and
> beat up your supposed love, having her leave you
> is to be expected. :

of course.. i agree..but its one thing for your woman to leave you and its another for her to do it for your bandmate...

obviously brian lost control of the band.. mick and keith were writing the songs etc.. but, and maybe i'm wrong as what do i know, i have to believe anita leaving him for keith must have been a bit hard to swallow....

all i'm saying its not just that she left him.... its whom she left him for that i'd guess was crushing

anyways back to the music

john r Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well if not a synth what the hell is (Bill?)
> playing on 2000 Light Years (in addition to B's
> mellotron)? How do we know this is the first synth
> the RS bought? Hell the Monkees had one in '67.
> And it sounds to me like Brian on harmonica on DD
> (compare his other harm. trax, and Mason's on the
> 2nd Traffic album). And the guitars are aplenty on
> JP, so I concur it's KR's slide, and up-front
> acoustic, but more appear as the song progresses,
> and it's a wash of sound by the last couple
> minutes.
> Always wondered what that wailing is on
> JP....Can't check the link, but it's pretty
> otherworldly!

All Moog sales were logged.

There is only one acoustic and one electric slide guitar on JP.

Dave Mason does the wah wah like effect on harmonica on the 2nd Traffic album, this is similar to what is heard on Dear Doctor. I cant from memorey recall Brian doing that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 20:43 by His Majesty.

I don't know why I labelled this thread as OT. My mistake! )

I'm glad many here agree with my point regarding the difference between last MEANINGFUL contribution and last contribution. No Expectations is often all Brian is given credit for on Beggars Banquet and no matter how little or insignificent his other parts may of been, he is most definitely there on other tracks.

>> don't know why I labelled this thread as OT. My mistake! <<

you can change it: just go back to your first post, hit the "edit post" thing at the bottom,
then change whatever you need to change. that works for thread titles too, if you change it in the first one.

Great post Majesty! We had the discussion before on the LP forum, great you are on this forum as well. I agree on all points except:

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is what Brian is most likely to have played
> on Beggars Banquet:
>
>
> Sympathy for the Devil - Near inaudible acoustic
> guitar and backing vocals... this can all be seen
> in the One Plus One footage.

Brian does most probably NOT sing on Sympathy, as doesn't Anita Pallenberg, Marianne Faithful, Charlie Watts or Bill Wyman. The shot with all people gathered around the mike was completely staged for the movie, and you actually see Watts loking incredibly bored and out of place, and nobody is actually really singing. Jimmy Miller has stated in a early 90's interview that it was Mick, Keith and him singing.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:

> Brian does most probably NOT sing on Sympathy, as
> doesn't Anita Pallenberg, Marianne Faithful,
> Charlie Watts or Bill Wyman. The shot with all
> people gathered around the mike was completely
> staged for the movie, and you actually see Watts
> loking incredibly bored and out of place, and
> nobody is actually really singing. Jimmy Miller
> has stated in a early 90's interview that it was
> Mick, Keith and him singing.
>
> Mathijs

I've read you saying that before, and yes, it does look staged.

I also think that Brian being there is staged in a way, he HAD to make an appearance for the film really. Interesting that they included the footage of him missing though.

But, I believe they are singing in the footage as it's the camera crews mics that are picking up the sound.

I have doubts that this made it to the final album though, although they kept some of the chatter for the start? Did Jimmy, Mick and Keith overdub these vocals at Sunset Sound later on?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 21:03 by His Majesty.

The who of Symathy For The Devil was recorded at Olypic Sound from 4-10th June 1968. According to Martin Elliott's book, it wasn't worked on after that.

Big Al Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The who of Symathy For The Devil was recorded at
> Olypic Sound from 4-10th June 1968. According to
> Martin Elliott's book, it wasn't worked on after
> that.

But from what I understand, the entire album was mixed(with some overdubs, ie the gospel choir on Salt of the Earth) and mastered at Sunset Sound after the Olympic Sessions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-01-15 21:11 by His Majesty.