It's unfortunate that Mick's control freak nature clashed with Rick Rubin because Wandering spirit stands out as the best sounding Stones /solo album since Tattoo You.

Christ,he could have made Dirty Work sound good !

Listen to AC/DC's Ballbreaker. He stripped them to the raw bones and of course the awesome J. Cash albums.

sc uk

RR has the knack of makinf just about everyone he touches cool again. Even Neil Diamond. I actually got the ND album. He did the best RHCP albums. The good thing about RR would be that much like Jimmy Miller, I don't think he would be scared of the mighty Twins. Probably why Jagger clashed with him. J/R should be more mature than that. This is one vibe I have been getting from Keith lately; that he really doesn't want anyone around who would challenge him. And make them better.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think he would be scared of the
> mighty Twins. Probably why Jagger clashed with
> him.

Thats EXACTLY the reason. Rubin said in a recent interview (Uncut, Mojor or some other UK music magazine) that Jagger is so surrounded by yes-men telling him everything he does is wonderful that he COULDNT handle Rubin coming to him and saying "I think you're capable of better lyrics than this.." etc.

I dont think Rubin would work with Jagger again because of this. He didnt seem to treasure the experience. In fairness, despite their differences, they still managed to make a pretty good record.

And if he found Jagger difficult to work with because he was so set in his ways and a prisoner of his own ego, you can only imagine the scale of sheer impossibility of dealing with his partner-in-crime.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-08-31 15:13 by Gazza.

<they sound messy and Exile-ish. They are NOT that band anymore.>

Keith is, Mick is not.

I've been listening to these some more and they are actually starting to grow on me. Many of the differences are subtle (to my ears anyway, untrained in the technical aspects of music as they are) but become more apparent with repeated listenings.

I still think overall the material is somewhat weak, but for the most part these versions are superior to Steel Wheels and actually make some of its blander songs enjoyable. It's amazing how much difference production can make. The revised Steel Wheels tracklist someone posted on this thread that combines monitor mixes and SWs versions seemed pretty dead on to me.

The outtakes are fantastic, To my ears a better sounding record than the official Steel Wheels. SW alwyas sounded so "thin" to me, and smooth. The monitor mixes are rough and ready.

Now, in a contradiction of sorts, I'll say it again. The Stones (and I LOVE them, they are my favorites, always have been ever since I heard Route 66 on my crystal set!) have never 'sounded like the Stones should', from about 1972 til today. And why? I think it's a combination of:

1. Bad choices of producer/s (even the Glimmer Twins couldn't get it right - no objectivity!)

2. The need to fill up every track that the studio offered. That is, if they recorded in a 32-track studio, they seemed compelled to put something on all those tracks. They didn't (haven't) left 'breathing space, space that's evident in their 60's and real early 70's stuff. Does this seem to be their way of trying to compensate for the lack of quality and depth of the fundamental song? I think so......

3. When they rock, in the studio, they seem to want to play LOUD. They equate LOUD with rock. Live that's true, in the studio, they forget about finessing.

Does Gimme Shelter or SFTD SOUND like they played HARD? No. They just laid down, and layered down, just enough, and then stopped. But almost every rock track they've laid down in the late 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s to me SOUND like they have played LOUD and HARD in the studio. Again - no breathing room.

Combine all 3 points, and that's why Rock and A Hard Place, Sad Sad Sad, One Hit, Flip the Switch etc all sound lame to me.

When they "cruise" a bit, slow it down - a bit, tone it down and don't embellish, THAT's MY latter day Stones. Like LowDown, Memory Motel, Some Girls, Harlem Shuffle, Love is Strong, It Wont Take Long, Under the Radar....a bit slower, not so 'pushed', just p-l-a-y-e-d....bit edgier, "sinister" even.

So, the monitor mixes to me are a revelation. SW itself "tired, contrived and forced". Thanks to all concerned in getting the monitor mixesout, in whatever format. To have them in any format is surely better than to not have them at all??

Rgds
Rod
Perth

Where can I find, with a decent quality, these Outttakes from SW??

the RO torrent page is the place to go

this is a VERY interesting topic. Very rich and mainly right. But it is difficult to have a definitive opinion on several questions.

The times there are a changin'... do you remember when it was written "produced by the glimmer twins" on records ? but in fact there was always a Jimmy Miller around, no ? what was the part of the glimmer in the production ?

this is a real problem. Is the producer able to bring something to improve the artist and is the artist able to know what he wants and how his music should be produced and maybe fight against some production choices, wants, criterias.

in this example of SW production, it was clear when I listened to these greats outtakes that the original work done by MJ & KR was what we like to listen to and how the Stones should sound. The guitars are important since this is a band with 2 lead guitars and the production made on steel wheels mainly cut the guitars.
However maybe the production was useful on "continental drift" ?
There is a good new with SW. The Stones were able to release a great album even in 89.
Rubin made a great job with Wandering spirit. He is currently working with Metallica but nothing really impressive came out, not because of Rubin but because the band is not inspired imo (2 new songs live, not enthousiastic about them).
And it's true that Rubin was useful for Johnny Cash album 'the man comes around'.
Choosing the right producer. Not a lot on the list..

I don't know about Turd on the run opinion about Mick himself. I like a lot the man as Keith. Mick is maybe cut in two : the real artist able to create "heaven", "moonlight mile" and many more terrific songs and the business man thinking about the commercial tune. Kind of Jekkyl and Hide... divided about choices and maybe the wrong part could be stronger.

I think that money is a problem (as always you can say). Not for the best era with Sticky, Exile and others when creativity was the priority. (when Exile came out was it a commercial success ? blues, gospel hum.. I am not sure).

then came another era, less creativity (except for some girls and tatoo you (even if many are from 70's) maybe masked by a certain production ?

the vaults are always a debat. I agree that there are some hidden stuff that should surface and "precious love" is a great example (Mick do you read us ?)
I made a post a few years ago on SFJ about Being Mick : if you pay attention to the stuff behind Mick in a scene (tapes !!) saying that they are remastering some things... you can clearly read names of unknown songs (not on outtakes we have) and like Turd says in the topic, some know what he means.
But is there so many gems ? and why the band could not recognize one and left it away ? Does Keith listen to them sometimes ? Mick does if you listen to W spirit outtakes (gangsters moll).

they can tour with weak albums or no record to support (licks tour), it's amazing. And they are successfull...

Giddyup! That's the gospel!

>The times there are a changin'... do you remember when it was written "produced by the glimmer twins" on records ? but in fact there was always a Jimmy Miller around, no ? what was the part of the glimmer in the production ?

the first album credited to 'the Glimmer twins' was IORR (although 'Satanic Majesties' was credited to 'The Rolling Stones' as they had recently dumped Andrew Oldham)

Miller's last production credit was the album before IORR - ie, Goats head Soup.

"they can tour with weak albums or no record to support (licks tour), it's amazing. And they are successfull..."

The Who are also the same accept they haven't released an album for 25 years!!!

Lovely and very accurate post Mr OnTheRun ('cmon I can't call you Turd now can I?). I don't agree with you about Steel Wheels. Half of it still stands up and is well worth the stretch. It is, in my opinion, their last good album to date (Tatto You was the last great one). The outtakes are, of course, superb, and many of them are indeed superior to the officially released album.

Why don't they work with visionary producers like Lanois and Rick Rubin? Simple: because it would be too much like hard work. The pair of them would probably send Jagger and Richards back to the drawing board to rewrite a song because it was under par. Don Was is the music producer's equivalent of a Yes Man. The Stones are a business. Remember The Stones credit card?

I still don't understand how the outtakes show that "the Stones have mismanaged their career." OK, they're more appealing to rock and roll fans like us, but how did producing the album more in a pop direction hurt the band's career? ... It didn't. Fans can complain about weak albums and blame mick until they're blue in the face--though keith is equally responsible as one of the group--but it seems the vast majority still buy the albums and go to the shows, to the band's overwhelming $ucce$$.

Jah is not dead has great guitars (especially around 5 minutes). It grooves a lot. One they could release.
They did it for "so young", not the best outtake imo

Cc writes:

“I still don't understand how the outtakes show that "the Stones have mismanaged their career." OK, they're more appealing to rock and roll fans like us, but how did producing the album more in a pop direction hurt the band's career? ... It didn't. Fans can complain about weak albums and blame mick until they're blue in the face--though keith is equally responsible as one of the group--but it seems the vast majority still buy the albums and go to the shows, to the band's overwhelming $ucce$$.”

You don’t understand how the outtakes show that “the Stones have mismanaged their career?” … “how did producing the album more in a pop direction hurt the band's career?”

I believe the first question is answered quite fully on my original post. If you do not agree, you are entitled to your opinion. But I believe I articulated an argument in a clear enough way that it is very easy to see how the Stones mismanaged their studio recording career – using the Steel Wheels recordings as a microcosm.

I can go on for pages boring everybody about albums preceding and following Steel Wheels [and maybe I will eventually, in a new post…bootleg material like the Black and Blue Outtakes, Girls, Pills, and Powders from Some Girls, and the Emotional Rescue tapes, or even Voodoo Brew, all prove that the Stones – debunking conventional wisdom – have had SEVERAL ‘golden eras’ after the mythic 1968-72 period…it’s just that a ridiculous amount of their top-notch material…material that would have made these albums FAR greater than they already are…IS STUCK IN THE VAULTS !], but addressing the subject at hand; Steel Wheels was a commercial success…selling several million copies and going to #2 in the UK charts and #3 in the US charts. Then again…I believe that had it been better [differently?] produced and sequenced [or presented in a manner similar to the tracks we hear now on the wonderful outtakes masters – with several unearthed tracks thrown in], it would have been a FAR better album and I would argue it would have also sold much better. Remember this was a time when bands like U2 and G&R were regularly selling 7-12 million units of their albums - not to mention bands like Huey Lewis and The News, Poison, Bon Jovi, and even the Traveling Wilburys selling in the 4-6 million range year in year out. The Stones comeback was a media sensation and had huge publicity. They were on the cover of TIME and Rolling Stone and so many other publications…and sold a ‘relatively’ disappointing 2-3 million albums worldwide. Disappointing? Yes…even Jagger has said so. They toured the world for 2 years in support of Steel Wheels. Nothing will ever change the fact that the set of songs written for the album is a notch or two below their best work…but my belief is that had Steel Wheels been released in a more ‘pure’ form, aka as it is on the Steel Wheels Studio Masters – and with Precious Love and Fancyman Blues added [and maybe one or two original tracks left out…Hearts for Sale anyone?] it would have completely galvanized their base, attracted far bigger new generation of fans, and brought unit sales into double the figure that they are. Pure conjecture…I know. But if the fans and general public had gotten a taste or what the new Stones songs REALLY sounded like…with the guitar interplay unleashed…and the hidden gems Precious Love and Fancyman Blues unearthed…well…

Did producing the album more in a pop direction hurt the band's career? Hell, let’s put it this way…if you judge a band’s success in purely commercial terms the Stones $ucce$£€ has been inarguable. They’ve become a Fortune 500-style corporation. Nothing short of releasing "At The Copa-The Rolling Stones do Barry Manilow's Songbook Cycle" could really damage their career - they could tour on their 60's and 70's back catalogue until they're in wheel chairs, if they so choose. But their monetary success [for the last quarter century] has been built mostly on the back of their live tours – the Stones as the "Rock and Roll Global Traveling Jukebox & Amusement Park"…complete with all the songs you once loved, [and a few new ones thrown in!], inflatable dolls and tongues, video screens, and fireworks…bring the family !! Cool…OK. I don’t go to their shows for the inflatable dolls, or the fireworks, in fact, I hate that shite…but that’s just me. The fact is, their late-period albums have served mainly as promotional tools for touring…not as musical statements of purpose in and of themselves [as they were in earlier eras]. What is sad to me is that THEY COULD HAVE BEEN SO MUCH MORE. Steel Wheels [and Voodoo Lounge, for another more recent example] should have been FAR STRONGER musical statements…[the same could be argued for the albums of the 1973-79 era, in light of what was left in the vaults, but that's another story for another time] but a lot of the fire and passion – and best tunes - never left the studio vaults. Consequently a lot of potential musical highlights have never been exposed...and most fans at the shows are there for the material released in the 1960's and 70's...for the nostalgia. So, yes…if you’re fixated on the monetary aspect…I believe this pop direction DID hurt the band’s career in that they left a lot of money on the table, and great songs in the vault, by going in this direction.

More importantly to me and most fans, their LEGACY and ARTISTIC CREDIBILITY took a hit in the sense that – in not maximizing their strengths and releasing their best material in the strongest possible setting - they squandered several opportunities in the middle and late phases of their career to nearly match their greatest work…and instead produced work that will be well remembered but, in the end, will add less than it should have to their monumental musical legacy. Their mid and late-period work could have meant so much more.

Diamond rings, Vaseline, you gave me disease, well, I lost a lot of love over you.

i for one agree with everything you said. during the golden era only the cream rose to top, but post-72 there's been a lot more dregs. floating at the bottom however are many gems wasting away in the vaults. unfortunate and tragic

Talking about their work, legacy, and credibility is different from talking about their management and career, which is how you couched your original post. In terms of management, I don't see how the band could have hoped for better results, when compared to the fates of their 60s peers. Extrapolating an alternative history of unblemished musical integrity through the release of a set of outtakes is a nice fantasy, which is one of the functions of this board, I guess.

straycatuk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's unfortunate that Mick's control freak nature
> clashed with Rick Rubin because Wandering spirit
> stands out as the best sounding Stones /solo album
> since Tattoo You.
>
> Christ,he could have made Dirty Work sound good !
>
> Listen to AC/DC's Ballbreaker. He stripped them to
> the raw bones and of course the awesome J. Cash
> albums.
>
> sc uk


Apparently Rick Rubin was nowhere to be seen during the recording of AC/DCs Ballbreaker. Angus says that Malcolm produced it. But I am a big fan of Rubin. Maybe Ballbreaker would have been better if they had worked together properly. Anyone that can produce Slayer, Johnny Cash as well as the beautiful latest Neil Diamond album has my respect. He has a fresh outlook on things. I read an interview with him about the Neil Diamond album and he made Neil play the guitar again. He reminded him how he used to record, and he wouldnt start recording till he, the producer, was satisfied with the quality of the songs! He's no yes man, for sure!

they should at least go into the studio and cut a few tracks with rubin, what would be the harm? besides if jagger thought rubin producing a stones album would mean more $ales$$$, he would do it in hearbeat and considering that rubin is the producer of 06's arguarbly two biggest releases Cash and RHCP, don't be surprised if that doesn't happen. i think rubin will work with the stones in the near future, at least an attempt will be made.

i didn't care for ballbreaker much, stiff upper lip however was a return to form for ac/dc

VERY well written, Turd On the Run! One of the greatest threads I've read on the Stones. I don't have time now to write anything really productive in response, but what has been said especially about the production -- Don Was' and Jagger's inability to keep the Stones' rawness intact, vs. the near-genious of someone like Ethan Johans who really has the Jimmy Miller feel in his works -- really was spot-on.

I totally agree that the Stones has tons of potential to rock out and create good music, but spoil it in the studio. All the talk about A Bigger Bang being "back to the roots" or whatever kinda felt like bullshit in the end as usual. But what was interesting with that record -- just like what seems to be the case with the Steel Wheels outtakes -- was how cool some of the "audience" bootleg recordings of a pre demonstration of the album last year sounded, simply because they had a dirty edge to them from the lousy bootleg sound capture. Then with the actual CD in my player all the sterile slickness -- and a couple of real duds for songs, like Streets Of Love -- came back to me...

Anyway -- again, thanks for a really well written post! Personally I have lost all hope of hearing something as good as Tattoo You or Talk Is Cheap from the Stones of today, but being only 25 years old, I can hope for some good "bootleg series" releases in the future, even if I have to wait 30 years from now on.

Adrian-L Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i'll stick my neck out, and say, 'Precious Love'
> is the best track i've heard from The Stones in 20
> years.


Agreed, if they toss the back-up bullshit on the track

Could anyone tell me where I could buy a CD copy of the Steel Wheel out-takes. I've really enjoyed this post and am dying to hear the tracks for myself. Any help would be much appreciated!

email me n I'll wack one in the post........

abomail2002@yahoo.co.uk

iamthedj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Could anyone tell me where I could buy a CD copy
> of the Steel Wheel out-takes. I've really enjoyed
> this post and am dying to hear the tracks for
> myself. Any help would be much appreciated!


Theyre not available (as yet) on a bootleg CD. Thats why we provide bit torrent sites. So fans can get and spread them for free without having to pay bootleggers

kissinc***incannes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> they should at least go into the studio and cut a
> few tracks with rubin, what would be the harm?
> besides if jagger thought rubin producing a stones
> album would mean more $ales$$$, he would do it in
> hearbeat and considering that rubin is the
> producer of 06's arguarbly two biggest releases
> Cash and RHCP, don't be surprised if that doesn't
> happen. i think rubin will work with the stones in
> the near future, at least an attempt will be
> made.
>
>

hell will freeze over before Jagger eats enough humble pie to let Rubin take the reins on any of his recordings again. And Richards' ego is also too much to allow him to work with such a hands-on producer.

Rubin, in fairness, has enough future plans to the extent where he doesnt really need the Stones and from what I've read, after his experience with Jagger on Wandering Spirit, wouldnt be in any great hurry to work in that environment again.