maumau Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i agree with ohnonotyouagain, those outtakes do
> not thrill me so much. the material stays weak.
> which reminds me of the saying: "you can't polish a turd"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-08-27 02:08 by Leonard Keringer.

but you can put it on a run

perhaps the greatest post i've ever read! you summed much of what i've thought for several years, the SW outtakes cemented that view for me as well. the only thing you didn't touch on, which i think needs to mentioned is that it's always seemed the Mick and Keith always have pet songs they really like that for whatever reason the other doesn't and i think what happens is that we've ended up with albums full of compromise songs, not as good as the "pet" songs but ones Mick and Keith each like, settling for mediocrity due to petty ego squabbles.


Turd On The Run Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have always remembered Steel Wheels as a fine
> 'comeback' album that I appreciated and liked very
> much when it appeared, but then quickly faded into
> irrelevance - compared to the vast majority of the
> Stones’ canon it had very little long-term
> resonance. Though it had several outstanding
> tracks, the production values sounded somewhat
> dated the moment it was released – slick,
> over-produced, and a bit sterile…and the
> songwriting seemed middling. ‘Mixed Emotions’
> was a bankable yet unremarkable single.
> Sure…’Continental Drift’ was an interesting
> ‘curio’…but in retrospect it all seemed
> rather…calculated.
>
> The following tour was terrific...I saw it in the
> U.S. and in Europe but the album itself didn't
> have any long-term impact with me…nor with many
> long-time fans.
>
> Remember, this was a time when Guns ‘n Roses
> seemed to define what a rock ‘n roll band should
> look and sound like; dirty and dangerous, like the
> Stones of yore. And on the other side of the
> scale U2 was ascendant…with Daniel Lanois expertly
> managing their sound. Compared to the Gunners and
> U2, the Stones ‘sound’ and production values of
> this era seemed scrubbed and rather
> conventional…almost banal.
>
> But I was just thrilled to have the Rolling Stones
> back. I think a lot of fans felt the same way.
>
> Now these wonderful Steel Wheels outtakes…from a
> cassette copy of first generation master tapes
> are dropped on our lap. They constitute the most
> important ‘recovery’ of Stones material in perhaps
> a decade.
>
> And I am now completely convinced of something
> that I have been suspicious of the more I gather
> an incredible wealth of unreleased material:
> namely that the Rolling Stones have managed their
> studio recording career in an inexplicably
> slipshod, careless manner – often undermining
> their singular talents and inimitable natural
> sound – a sound only God and Robert Johnson could
> have co-conspired to bestow upon a group of white
> English boys…amen.
>
> Firstly: The Stones have so much good unreleased
> and/or unfinished material from myriad recording
> sessions the last 30-35 years that several of
> their last 10 albums could have either been
> double-albums or ought to have had their song
> line-up dramatically changed to allow the material
> in the vaults to be released...it is very often
> FAR superior to what is on the 'official' release.
> Have doubts? Then listen to Goat’s Head Soup and
> tell me that a knock-about cut like ‘Hide Your
> Love’ is superior to the rocking ‘Criss Cross/Save
> Me’, or that the languid ‘Can’t You Hear The
> Music’ fits better into the scheme of the album
> than their raw and raunchy version of ‘Drift Away’
> or the blistering ‘Living In The Heart Of Love’.
> Or listen to It’s Only Rock And Roll and tell me
> that a throwaway cut like ‘Short and Curlies’ is
> superior to cuts sitting in vaults like ‘Tops’ or
> ‘Waiting On A Friend’, or even the very soulful
> ‘Fast Talking’, not to mention the funky and
> rollicking ‘You Should Have Seen Her Ass’…cuts
> that would have made that disc a first-tier album.
> Even Black And Blue should have been a top-tier
> Stones work with cuts like ‘Worried About You’ and
> ‘Slave’ added to it…not to mention all the other
> cuts from that era in the can and sealed away…the
> lucky people who have these recordings know from
> what I speak…a treasure trove…well, you get the
> picture…
>
> And don’t tell me that Tattoo You would then not
> have existed. The Stones had plenty other
> material in the vaults…and they could have
> also…God forbid…written new material.
>
> Secondly: Their 'producers' - especially after
> Tattoo You - have neglected and wasted the Stone’s
> crunch, dissonance, and jangle. This has
> compromised and often neutered their lustrous and
> gloriously bawdy ‘sound’.
>
> Listening to these outtakes of what is supposedly
> one of their weakest albums - Steel Wheels -
> confirms and supports everything I have just
> written. These outtakes are splendid and force
> one to completely re-evaluate the Steel Wheels
> album and era.
>
> Songs like Mixed Emotions , and Sad, Sad, Sad -
> which seemed kinda flat and formulaic on the
> official album - sound raw, urgent and vital.
> Hold On To Your Hat is transformed into a
> thrilling hard-rock boogie-woogie – the piano
> actually being the lead instrument propelling the
> arrangement forward. Jagger's voice is really
> nasty and edgy on the rockers – a far cry from the
> cleaned up singing on the official release. Keith
> sings 'Almost Hear You Sigh' in a delicate and
> vulnerable voice...it was written by him and
> should have been sung by him on the album – and
> Jagger's schematic reading on the official release
> fades into memory. A superb Blues called
> 'Fancyman Blues' stuns...it is brilliant. Jagger
> is an unsurpassed Blues interpreter. Another
> unreleased gem, the heartbreaking 'Precious Love'
> is a classic...Jagger startles…had it been
> released it would stand with the Stones’ top 10
> ballads. And top 10 covers. And so on...
>
> THIS is the "STEEL WHEELS" that should have been
> released...warts and rough edges and all. It is
> dirty, sloppy and beautiful...it would have been a
> classic. I am truly amazed...
>
> The crime here is that their post-Tattoo You
> studio work is chock full of inspired performances
> and unreleased gems. Contrary to conventional
> wisdom, I now believe that they have NOT had a
> disastrous creative lull. Their choice of
> producers has been absolutely mind bogglingly
> wrongheaded…and their numerous Solo albums have
> severely reduced the number of quality cuts
> available for Rolling Stones releases; but if one
> listens to many of the outtake tracks of all the
> albums from the last 25 years, you still hear the
> hot, brilliant, and nasty R&R outfit that they
> are…then they go into 'post-production' and the
> blood is too often drained out. Dismaying,
> really.
>
> Listen to these new Steel Wheels outtakes...and
> tell me that with a new track sequence...and
> perhaps the instrumental track edited or cut that
> this wouldn't be a definitive Stones album. Alone
> the tracks Almost Hear You Sigh , Blinded By Love,
> Precious Love , Terrifying , the sublime Slipping
> Away, and Continental Drift to end the
> album...would have made a Side 2 Tattoo You redux
> ...then on Side One the rockers... Hold On To Your
> Hat, Mixed Emotions, Fancyman Blues, Can’t Be
> Seen, Sad Sad Sad, Hearts for Sale, Call Girl
> Blues, and Rock + a Hard Place…and with THIS raw
> unproduced feel and the stray studio chatter, and
> the long jams and codas....ahhhhh SHitE...just
> listen to it and you'll know what I mean...a great
> producer like the dearly departed Jimmy Miller
> would have perhaps eliminated a cut or two, kept
> the rough edges and the spontaneity and the
> chatter, and released this almost as is…THAT album
> would have been an impressive addition to their
> canon...a killer...a late-era near-masterpiece…
>
>
>
> My buddy Delroi wrote me..."It seems over the last
> ~15 years, they keep working with slick,
> establishment producers like this walking
> neuter-machine, Don Was. I have to tell you, I
> have listened to stuff he's produced for others,
> for instance, Dylan's "Under A Blood Red Sky", and
> like metronomic clock work, he seems to preside
> over the most stultifying, soporific, punchless,
> antiseptic drivel any of the artists in question
> have ever released. The man is literally
> death-by-anesthesia at the soundboard. Why they
> haven't worked with Rick Rubin, Daniel Lanois, or
> a young gun like Ethan Johns (indeed, son of
> legendary Glyn and nephew of Andy) that has done
> monster producer work for Ryan Adams and Emmylou
> Harris (to name just a few). In the end,
> considering Jagger is widely known to be an
> absolute control & business freak, I lay these
> egregious lapses at his door. His business acumen
> when it comes to commercially monetizing the
> stones is impeccable (impeccably off-putting
> actually), but his artistic instincts have got to
> be among **the worst** of the "icon rock bands".
> Absolute worst. He has, through his inept
> strategy, essentially indentured the Stones to
> irrelevance post-1980 in my book. Proof? Ask most
> rock listeners/music aficionados about the Stones,
> and the vast majority will say that the Stones
> haven't been a truly relevant >>studio<< band
> since Tattoo You, as a live band obviously we'd
> have to arrive at another assessment. Many now
> consider them a nostalgia act...worth seeing live
> if only for their 1960's-1970's output. Criminal.
> And it is Jagger's fault considering their
> languishing back catalogue."
>
> Now, you may or may not agree with my buddy
> Delroi, but I think he raises some very
> interesting and valid points. I hope I do too. I
> detest the production Chris Kimsey provided for
> the Stones on Steel Wheels, and absolutely loathe
> what Don Was has done for the Stones the last
> several studio albums. He is over-reverent, bland
> mediocrity personified. But that is simply my own
> opinion. I have been hoping since 1983 that they
> would work with someone as bracing and challenging
> and pure and insane as Rick Rubin...what he did
> for Johnny Cash was miraculous. Or maybe Jack
> White could do for them what he did for Loretta
> Lynn last year on Van Lear Rose. Surely all of
> you have other choices...and other opinions. I
> would love to hear them. Regardless...since the
> blessed, blighted and burned-out Jimmy Miller
> stepped away ...and ESPECIALLY since the Dirty
> Work album...the Stones have been undermined by
> banal, incongruous, uneven production…and
> often-inexplicable choice and sequence of tracks
> for their official releases.
>
> These newly unearthed Steel Wheels tracks prove
> this unfathomable fact. Thank you Gazza,
> Vancouver, and all of the people at RO and IORR
> that made it possible for these tracks to see the
> light of day. You have made countless people
> happy...and perplexed a few. Bless you.

I disagree about Don Was, his production on Dylans "Under a red sky" is admittedly dated, but I think he did a good job on the last 3 Stones records. Bringing Rick Rubin or Jack White, in is unlikely to change much. In my opinion Jagger is the "marketing" hand behind how the records sound. Since Steel Wheels he has tried to make the records as sellable on the current pop charts as possible, however misjudged that might be or not.
Also would Rick Rubin really have changed the production of ABB much?, if you think about it sounds just like a Rubin production anyway.

I like Steel Wheels a lot. Maybe it doesn't rock like Beggars or Let It Bleed, or Sticky Fingers etc, but I really like the feel of the album.. more jazzy in a way, not straight rock'n'roll.. it's a bit different but that's why I like it. I like every song on it.

As for the Monitor Mixes: Great, raw recordings, no production yet, some unfinished songs. One thing I miss though is the bass which is really upfront on the original Steel Wheels. There are some great licks from Ronnie and Keith which didn't make the original record.

Love Steel Wheels.

In case any of you out there have not had the opportunity to hear the revelation that the newly unearthed original soundboard Steel Wheels outtakes are: they are available in .mp3 format at user.banhof.se [although I noticed that there are 4 tracks missing - Terrifying - Rock and Hard Place - Can't be Seen, and the instrumental track Ready Yourself] and in .wav format on the Hot Stuff section of IORR. Or if someone could kindly guide me through the procedure of uploading tracks onto IORR for everybody I would be happy to post the .mp3 versions. True fans [which we all are] should not pass up the opportunity to listen to these tracks. Cheers.

Diamond rings, Vaseline, you gave me disease, well, I lost a lot of love over you.

TURD's right - Should have opened with the alternate version of "Hold OY Hat". WOW!

I would like to know what Keith thinks of the "production" issue. Talk is Cheap came out in between DW & SW and I think it still sounds great--immune from "1980s-itis" and overproduction. DW w/ the stripped down Talk is Cheap treatment would have been much more rockin'.

This is one of the greatest things I've ever read on the Stones - and I've read almost everything. A brilliant piece...goddang! These Stones since the early 80s are just so concentrated on the commercial angle that they just don't get it, man...these cuts ROCK! And the bluesy stuff is tasty. What the foock were they thinkin' when they cleaned 'em up?! OK...the songs weren't the greatest set of toons they ever conjured up...but damn, they sound really good! What sounded cool they made staid and what sounded edgy they made commonplace. I'd like to crack 'em upside the head. Steel Wheels coulda been a really strong album. So many of their other not so great albums coulda shoulda been MUCH better. Concentrate boys!!!! The material is mostly there. The sound too! Don't @#$%& it up in post-production...don't get lazy! Think! OK ABB is a step in the right direction...it's real good...but Don Was...damn. It shoulda been better...cut out 3 songs...and make it rougher, you know? Bring in Rubin or someone that'll just get outta the way. Turd puts down into words the gospel truth.

TURD- Well stated and I am in total agreement. Proof in the pudding is the omissions of "Under The Radar" and "I Wanna Go Home" from a A Bigger Bang. Bang could have been a great CD. Where can I get a copy of the "Wheels" outtakes? If you burn me a copy,I'll send you cold hard cash. Thanks!

Chas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would like to know what Keith thinks of the
> "production" issue. Talk is Cheap came out in
> between DW & SW and I think it still sounds
> great--immune from "1980s-itis" and
> overproduction. DW w/ the stripped down Talk is
> Cheap treatment would have been much more rockin'.

Maybe, but keith is just as responsible for having the "1980s-itis" as the rest of the band--it's his band as much as mick's or charlie's. He deserves blame (or credit) the same as the rest.

Once more I stress that the Stones are NOT taking the same directions as 35 years ago. They are a different band today. The reason so many people like the sound of these outtakes is that they sound messy and Exile-ish. They are NOT that band anymore. And you HAVE to ask yourself if you like them today, or not. That's the responsibility of a fan.

JumpingKentFlash

Turd: I searched "find of the decade" thread and it gave me only your response of those words to the person who asked how to find the outakes. Please help me find this material. Thanks.

The addition of Precious Love, Fancyman Blues and the alternative Hold On To Your Hat would have completed the album. It would have made it so much broader. As said above: SW has a unique feeling, you can call it jazzy, but with the absence of enough quality Stones songs you can as well call it cheesy.

Addition of pure quality like Precious Love, and some iconographic Stonestunes like Fancyman Blues and the alternative Hold On To Your Hat would have made a great Stones album, with a direction to abroad sounds (Contintal Drift, Blinded By Love). A great album with a distinctive, different attitude.

A rawer mix would have made it even better, as we can hear in the outtakes.

Jelle

Precious Love should have replaced the God awful Blinded By Love.

JumpingKentFlash

I hate the sound of the latter albums (especially Steel Wheels), even when the songs are First Class. It sounds rigid, unmoving and rarely has the kick of Sticky Fingers era. I think they need a new producer, no offence to Was. But it's time to wipe the slate clean and get a dirtier sound going again!
A dirty sound is possible without sounding dated, lads!

Don was is the worst offender in the production dept. He has always been nothing but a sycophant. Too wrapped up in awe of the Stones and their previous great work to really help them create something new and challenging. Voodoo was ruined IMo by Don was trying way too hard to make another Exile. He included weak tracks in the false notion of assembling a potpourri of Exile-like work. Ended up by releasing inferior versions, milktoast polished version sof YGMR e.g and lousy stuff like Sparks, Sweethearts, Jugular. When they had the good stuff in the can like "U got it made", "Honesxt man" and the Storm" Jump on top of me".
SW we see now HAD the songs and the sound to begin with. It just got ruined by oversafe song selection and abysmal prodction.
The Stones thrive on chaos. That is why IMO Babylon is th best post 89 album.

"...no longer shall you trudge 'cross my peaceful mind."

ChelseaDrugstore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don was is the worst offender in the production
> dept. He has always been nothing but a sycophant.
> Too wrapped up in awe of the Stones and their
> previous great work to really help them create
> something new and challenging. Voodoo was ruined
> IMo by Don was trying way too hard to make another
> Exile. He included weak tracks in the false notion
> of assembling a potpourri of Exile-like work.
> Ended up by releasing inferior versions, milktoast
> polished version sof YGMR e.g and lousy stuff like
> Sparks, Sweethearts, Jugular. When they had the
> good stuff in the can like "U got it made",
> "Honesxt man" and the Storm" Jump on top of me".
> SW we see now HAD the songs and the sound to begin
> with. It just got ruined by oversafe song
> selection and abysmal prodction.
> The Stones thrive on chaos. That is why IMO
> Babylon is th best post 89 album.


I am not a big VL fan either. I freakin' hate YGMR, mostly due to the embarassingly banal lyrics (I was a butcher, cutting up meat---doh!)

Plus, he made his name producing the multi-platinum, grammy winning Bonnie Raitt record. What a snooze! I hated that at the time about as much as Paula Abdul.

So, what does the "ideal" Steel Wheels track list look like?

1. Sad Sad Sad (Monitor Mixes Version)

2. Mixed Emotions (Monitor Mixes Version)

3. Terrifying (Steel Wheels version)

4. Hold On To Your Hat (Monitor Mixes Version)

5. Fancyman Blues (Monitor Mixes Version)

6. Precious Love (Monitor Mixes)

7. Steel Wheels aka Rock and a Hard Place (Monitor Mixes Version)

8. Can't Be Seen (Steel Wheels version)

9. Almost Hear You Sigh (Monitor Mixes Version, Keith vocal)

10. Continental Drift (Steel Wheels version)

11. Call Girl Blues (Monitor Mixes Version)

12. Slipping Away (Steel Wheels version)

13 Bonus Track: Ready Yourself (Monitor Mixes)

Where can I find the Steel Whels outtakes?

... and it all could of been so good! ask general custer ..... makes me sick..

and we all know who has been so driven to make the charts. look up in the dictionary 'backfire', and see who's name pops up.....

soundcheck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and we all know who has been so driven to
> make the charts. look up in the dictionary
> 'backfire', and see who's name pops up.....

And we always blame Mick ... has Keith nothing to say? Keith also signs the multi-million-dollars record deals, and it's only logical that the more money a band demands from a record company the more pressure this very same band gets from this very same record company to come up with a commercial product that promises big bucks in return of their initial - and in case of the Stones always HUGE - investment.

Keith could always say: "Let's take less money for record deals in order to keep maximum artistic freedom".

But guess what? When it comes to money, at the end of the day also Keith always opts for the big bucks - and against maximum artistic freedom.

Gentlemen: To Midnight Toker, WilderThanYou, and Country Honk...no need to send money or any of that nonsense...please tell me how I can upload these tracks for you onto IORR and I'll do it when I get back to my home office. For the sake of expediency I can upload .mp3 files of the tracks and you can convert them into CD-quality .wav files with any program like MusicMatch 10 or WinAmp or WindowsMediaPlayer. Then you can burn them and play them in your CD player or car...and you can keep the .np3 files for your iPod or PC. Maybe on the weekend if I find time I can even upload quality .wav files.

To JumpingKentFlash: you write..."Once more I stress that the Stones are NOT taking the same directions as 35 years ago. They are a different band today. The reason so many people like the sound of these outtakes is that they sound messy and Exile-ish. They are NOT that band anymore. And you HAVE to ask yourself if you like them today, or not. That's the responsibility of a fan."

WHAT? Since when is it the responsibility of the fan to accept inferior work from an artist they love? Since when? ESPECIALLY if the artist DOES NOT produce inferior work...rather the work that is released to the GENERAL PUBLIC resembles inferior work because the artists' REAL WORK is mismanaged, badly [re]produced and is lazily/hastily patched together...with a lot of really quality work from that same period put away and ensconced in vaults! The Stones ARE CLEARLY NOT the same band that they were in their heyday [as you put it, 35 years ago]...yet at the same time THEY ARE CLEARLY NOT the band one hears on the blandy produced Don Was/Chris Kimsey creations of the last 20 or so years either. This sound IS JUST AS MISLEADING...the Stones are STILL a hot, nasty, vital rock and roll band...with some still quite superb material. Or do you disagree with this assessment? The fact is that they are NOT the band THAT WE HEAR IN THESE LAST cd'S either! I - and thousands of other dedicated fans - have attended live concerts and have bootlegs to PROVE THAT! Is the fan to be faulted for feeling regret at the absurdly safe/laughingly commercial "attempts" at official track listing and sequencing of songs from Jagger and his producers [looking for a hit] on later-day Stones albums when CLEARLY superior work from the same sessions languishes in dark vaults? Sorry...I appreciate you as a brother-in-arms in loving this band...but no dice...

Diamond rings, Vaseline, you gave me disease, well, I lost a lot of love over you.

I think you may have a point there.

Turd On The Run Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the sake of
> expediency I can upload .mp3 files of the tracks
> and you can convert them into CD-quality .wav
> files with any program like MusicMatch 10 or
> WinAmp or WindowsMediaPlayer. Then you can burn
> them and play them in your CD player or car...

Wrong: once you have .mp3 files, you cannot get "CD-quality" back. .mp3s are "lossy," meaning that the data compressed to make the files so conveniently small is lost for good.

Turd On The Run Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To JumpingKentFlash: you write..."Once more I
> stress that the Stones are NOT taking the same
> directions as 35 years ago. They are a different
> band today. The reason so many people like the
> sound of these outtakes is that they sound messy
> and Exile-ish. They are NOT that band anymore. And
> you HAVE to ask yourself if you like them today,
> or not. That's the responsibility of a fan."
>
> WHAT? Since when is it the responsibility of the
> fan to accept inferior work from an artist they
> love? Since when? ESPECIALLY if the artist DOES
> NOT produce inferior work...rather the work that
> is released to the GENERAL PUBLIC resembles
> inferior work because the artists' REAL WORK is
> mismanaged, badly produced and is lazily/hastily
> patched together...with a lot of really quality
> work from that same period put away and ensconced
> in vaults! The Stones ARE CLEARLY NOT the same
> band that they were in their heyday ...yet at the
> same time THEY ARE CLEARLY NOT the band one hears
> on the blandy produced Don Was/Chris Kimsey
> creations of the last 20 or so years either. This
> sound IS JUST AS MISLEADING...the Stones are STILL
> a hot, nasty, vital rock and roll band...with some
> still quite superb material. Or do you disagree
> with this assessment? The fact is that they are
> NOT the band THAT WE HEAR IN THESE LAST cd'S
> either! I - and thousands of other dedicated fans
> - have attended live concerts and have bootlegs to
> PROVE THAT! Is the fan to be faulted for feeling
> regret at the absurdly safe/laughingly commercial
> "attempts" at official track listing and
> sequencing of songs from Jagger and his producers
> on later-day Stones albums when CLEARLY superior
> work from the same sessions languishes in dark
> vaults? Sorry...I appreciate you as a
> brother-in-arms in loving this band...but no
> dice...


Hey and goodmorning (BTW: We're not arguing here, so you don't have to say sorry for anything mate).
Well, that's you take on it I guess. What I meant was that Steel Wheels (The album) is a record with a distinct sound. You can't really say it's mismanaged 'cause you know as well as I do that the Stones puts albums out with the sound they want. The Stones wanted it this way (What we hear on the album). And then you must weigh your own likes and dislikes of the records today. Then you will find out if you like the latter day Stones or not. Maybe some people, not you, would actually find out that they don't like them today, or maybe even love what they do. If people went and ask themselves this question, we wouldn't have all the vague moaning on this board.

JumpingKentFlash

i'll stick my neck out, and say, 'Precious Love' is the best track i've heard from The Stones in 20 years.

Adrian-L Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i'll stick my neck out, and say, 'Precious Love'
> is the best track i've heard from The Stones in 20
> years.


[www.rotten.com]

JumpingKentFlash

oh dude, lol- a bit harsh there Kent!

- btw, you're in for a treat @ Horsens.. the 4 shows i've done in the last week and a half, have all been excellent-
i'm looking forward to seeing all your photos and reading your Horsens diary.

Adrian-L Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> oh dude, lol- a bit harsh there Kent!
>
> - btw, you're in for a treat @ Horsens.. the 4
> shows i've done in the last week and a half, have
> all been excellent-
> i'm looking forward to seeing all your photos and
> reading your Horsens diary.


Didn't mean any harm mate. You just said you stuck your neck out.... :-)
You're gonna see it all from Horsens. I promise.

JumpingKentFlash