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Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Smokey ()
Date: January 29, 2011 05:12

Are the strings top wrapped, or is that a reflection on the bridge?

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: January 30, 2011 16:38

Quote
Smokey
Are the strings top wrapped, or is that a reflection on the bridge?

Top wrap indeed, he did that throughout '73.

Mathijs

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Smokey ()
Date: January 31, 2011 05:53

OK, thanks

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: WeLoveYou ()
Date: January 31, 2011 09:31

What does top wrapped mean? Thanks

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: 71Tele ()
Date: January 31, 2011 09:49

Quote
WeLoveYou
What does top wrapped mean? Thanks

The strings are wrapped around the top of the tailpiece rather than going through the taipiece.

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: laugui ()
Date: February 11, 2011 01:33

/Users/laurentguibert/Pictures/iPhoto Library/Originals/2009/2 juil_16. 09/P1020481.JPG

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: gwen ()
Date: March 11, 2011 10:48

Quote
ChrisM
Quote
WeLoveYou
That's the fist time I've seen MT with a LP+Bigsby recently. Is it a reissue or vintage?
I was wondering that myself. close ups from the 100 Club gig show alot of wear around the headstock and the black bakelite that was on the Bigsby is worn off. It's not the the original 'Keith' burst Mick originally purchased in 1967 but it certainly looks vintage. Could a relic'd Gibon Historic. If anyone knows please pass it along!

From what I saw at the Stu gig, I'd say it's brand new. Wear on the headstock, but the finish on the body looks mint and there still is a label on the electronics cavity cover.

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Come On ()
Date: March 11, 2011 11:03

Mick T is a typical Gibson-man
Ronnie Fender-man
Brian Vox-man
and finally Keith, ? Black Tele-man?



2 1 2 0

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: xke38 ()
Date: March 11, 2011 11:09

Quote
gwen
Quote
ChrisM
Quote
WeLoveYou
That's the fist time I've seen MT with a LP+Bigsby recently. Is it a reissue or vintage?
I was wondering that myself. close ups from the 100 Club gig show alot of wear around the headstock and the black bakelite that was on the Bigsby is worn off. It's not the the original 'Keith' burst Mick originally purchased in 1967 but it certainly looks vintage. Could a relic'd Gibon Historic. If anyone knows please pass it along!

From what I saw at the Stu gig, I'd say it's brand new. Wear on the headstock, but the finish on the body looks mint and there still is a label on the electronics cavity cover.

Here's some more info on the guitar in question (a 2010 Gibson Les Paul R9 reliced by Area 59):

MT Les Paul

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: gwen ()
Date: March 11, 2011 11:25

great article! Thanks a lot, the body really didn't look that checked from the stalls!

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Kirk ()
Date: March 11, 2011 17:24

Quote
71Tele
Quote
WeLoveYou
What does top wrapped mean? Thanks

The strings are wrapped around the top of the tailpiece rather than going through the taipiece.
I never saw that before. Why did he do it? Altering the angle from the bridge down to the tailpiece. Is that producing a slight difference in string tension?
I know that by increasing headstock angle you increase string tension and attack and the other way around like when Gibson changed the headstock angle on Lp's many years ago.Does this apply to the angle between bridge and tailpiece?

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Smokey ()
Date: March 11, 2011 18:36

Quote
Kirk
I never saw that before. Why did he do it?

From Wikipedia:
Some players, like Duane Allman, deviate from the norm and "top wrap" their strings. This is when the direction of the string path is reversed so that the strings are threaded through the leading edge of the stopbar then come out the rear and wrapped over the top of the stop bar. The advantage is that strings are supposedly easier to bend because of the decreased string break angle. Also, the "nonspeaking" string length is increased, which may have an effect on the strings' harmonic vibration (see sympathetic resonance). The increased tendency for the strings to produce natural harmonics may make techniques such as pinch harmonics easier to accomplish. This is the same way that a wraparound stoptail bridge is strung. Regardless of the technique used, the tension provided by tightening the strings to pitch is the only thing keeping the stopbar in place, unless it is a "locking" type.

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Kirk ()
Date: March 11, 2011 23:35

Thank you Smokey! Interesting!

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: March 15, 2011 12:39

Quote
Smokey
Quote
Kirk
I never saw that before. Why did he do it?

From Wikipedia:
Some players, like Duane Allman, deviate from the norm and "top wrap" their strings. This is when the direction of the string path is reversed so that the strings are threaded through the leading edge of the stopbar then come out the rear and wrapped over the top of the stop bar. The advantage is that strings are supposedly easier to bend because of the decreased string break angle. Also, the "nonspeaking" string length is increased, which may have an effect on the strings' harmonic vibration (see sympathetic resonance). The increased tendency for the strings to produce natural harmonics may make techniques such as pinch harmonics easier to accomplish. This is the same way that a wraparound stoptail bridge is strung. Regardless of the technique used, the tension provided by tightening the strings to pitch is the only thing keeping the stopbar in place, unless it is a "locking" type.

This is half of the story. The reason for top wraping is that on a LP you want to screw down the stop bar on to the body as tight as possible. This increases the transfer of string vibration to body wood and pickups. But by doing this, the string tension will increase, which impedes string vibration and makes the feel of the string a bit more stiff. So, if you then top wrap the string, you counter this effect. Top wrapping on a stop bar installed normal, i.e. not srewed to the body, makes no sense.

Mathijs

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Kirk ()
Date: March 15, 2011 14:01

Well I did some research and found out that if you screw down the stop bar really tight for the reasons Mathijs already mentioned, you also end up with the strings touching the bridge right after the intonation saddles, which is not that good tonewise. So, you wrap around.

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: March 15, 2011 15:06

Quote
Kirk
Well I did some research and found out that if you screw down the stop bar really tight for the reasons Mathijs already mentioned, you also end up with the strings touching the bridge right after the intonation saddles, which is not that good tonewise. So, you wrap around.

That's why on many LP's you see the intonation screws of the saddles pointing towards the neck.

Mathijs

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Kirk ()
Date: March 15, 2011 15:25

Now, I wonder what would happen if you raised the tailpiece at almost the same level with the intonation saddles. Something like a top loader Tele with almost no break angle but on a shorter scale guitar. Do the stop bar screws go that high or would the whole thing become too unstable?

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: March 15, 2011 22:29

Quote
Kirk
Now, I wonder what would happen if you raised the tailpiece at almost the same level with the intonation saddles. Something like a top loader Tele with almost no break angle but on a shorter scale guitar. Do the stop bar screws go that high or would the whole thing become too unstable?

You can do it to an extent, you need some string pressure to push the string in to the notch of the saddle to make the break of the stringkeep. Lifting the stop bar high will have it's effect on the sound, especially sustain and overtones.

Mathijs

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Kirk ()
Date: March 16, 2011 00:00

Well, I raised the tailpiece a lot. There is a much softer touch and much easier bending. Less sustain maybe. Harmonically? Well, I think things are a little bit less "tight",a somehow wider harmonical matrix.

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: S.T.P ()
Date: May 1, 2011 12:08

Here's a great reissue of Taylors SG...the closest model I've seen compared to the original. A lot of the the pictures of the original is out of focus, so it's nice to actually see some details:




Found it here:[www.lespaulforum.com]

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: terraplane ()
Date: May 2, 2011 08:55

Quote
Kirk
Quote
71Tele
Quote
WeLoveYou
What does top wrapped mean? Thanks

The strings are wrapped around the top of the tailpiece rather than going through the taipiece.
I never saw that before. Why did he do it? Altering the angle from the bridge down to the tailpiece. Is that producing a slight difference in string tension?
I know that by increasing headstock angle you increase string tension and attack and the other way around like when Gibson changed the headstock angle on Lp's many years ago.Does this apply to the angle between bridge and tailpiece?

Basically you can run heavier gauge strings on your LP which gives a better tone as well.

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: pepganzo ()
Date: February 15, 2012 19:19

I love you Mick Taylor.

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: February 16, 2012 02:14

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Smokey
Quote
Kirk
I never saw that before. Why did he do it?

From Wikipedia:
Some players, like Duane Allman, deviate from the norm and "top wrap" their strings. This is when the direction of the string path is reversed so that the strings are threaded through the leading edge of the stopbar then come out the rear and wrapped over the top of the stop bar. The advantage is that strings are supposedly easier to bend because of the decreased string break angle. Also, the "nonspeaking" string length is increased, which may have an effect on the strings' harmonic vibration (see sympathetic resonance). The increased tendency for the strings to produce natural harmonics may make techniques such as pinch harmonics easier to accomplish. This is the same way that a wraparound stoptail bridge is strung. Regardless of the technique used, the tension provided by tightening the strings to pitch is the only thing keeping the stopbar in place, unless it is a "locking" type.

This is half of the story. The reason for top wraping is that on a LP you want to screw down the stop bar on to the body as tight as possible. This increases the transfer of string vibration to body wood and pickups. But by doing this, the string tension will increase, which impedes string vibration and makes the feel of the string a bit more stiff. So, if you then top wrap the string, you counter this effect. Top wrapping on a stop bar installed normal, i.e. not srewed to the body, makes no sense.

Mathijs

If you've ever had your string height artificially very high (away from the pickups) yopu will see that string vibration to body wood has very little effect in the sound of the notes on a Les Paul. Although I understand the logic in and tightly bound vibration path (all of them).

I do however have to question your statement about the string tension increase. Yeah it maybe happens with a tighter stop bar, BUT it is always countered with an adjustment of the tuners to bring the string into correct (or relative) pitch. If you are playing with a set neck lenght (string length) and a specific guage of strings (mass) the string tension will always be the same. Length and Mass being the only two factors which effect pitch. That's why string manufacturer's can put tension numbers right on the package.

That being said I can tell the difference when my extra string lengths are wound ALL the way to the base of the tuners. And of course the Fenders accomplish this less elegantly with the string guide things on the headstock between the nut and the tuners.

So many factors are hidden and magical in guitars, it's why I love them. peace

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: February 16, 2012 10:31

Quote
Naturalust
If you've ever had your string height artificially very high (away from the pickups) yopu will see that string vibration to body wood has very little effect in the sound of the notes on a Les Paul. Although I understand the logic in and tightly bound vibration path (all of them).

Well, it takes the discussion to a different path, but for the last couple of years I actually wonder how much the body wood and the string vibration actually influences the tone. I am starting to believe that with an electric guitar the pickups and amp play a very, very large part of the total sound. I used to be quite a collector and trader of vintage electric guitars, having owned more than hundred pre-65 Gibson and Fender guitars. Now, I own just a couple, and all of them are cheap Mexican and Japanese made electrics, but with very good pickups. Through my Boogie MK1 from ’77, I can’t tell the difference between an all original ’55 Fender Tele and my Mexican $400 Tele from the 90’s, with vintage ’57 pickups installed. My ’59 RI LP (which I sold) with a ’60 PAF and ’65 Patent No sounded better than any vintage LP I have ever played. So I am not too sure the body wood is such a contributing factor over the electronics and hardware anymore.

Quote
Naturalust

I do however have to question your statement about the string tension increase. Yeah it maybe happens with a tighter stop bar, BUT it is always countered with an adjustment of the tuners to bring the string into correct (or relative) pitch. If you are playing with a set neck lenght (string length) and a specific guage of strings (mass) the string tension will always be the same. Length and Mass being the only two factors which effect pitch. That's why string manufacturer's can put tension numbers right on the package.

That being said I can tell the difference when my extra string lengths are wound ALL the way to the base of the tuners. And of course the Fenders accomplish this less elegantly with the string guide things on the headstock between the nut and the tuners.

Actually, the only factor defining pitch (or frequency of a standing wave) is length. The mass alters the amplitude of a vibrating string, altering the volume.

But what I meant was: a proper vibrating string (meaning: a proper standing wave) can only occur when the ends of the string are tightly fixed. Any movement at any end will alter the vibration, making the ‘swing’ of the string wider, and the amplitude of the standing wave smaller. With a stop bar raised too high, the string will vibrate in the slot holes of the bridge.

The peg head of a guitar is quite a contributor to the overall string vibration, and winding the string all the way down will have its effect, although I am not sure if I actually would be able to hear that…but for the last couple of years you see more and more people having a capo clamped to the head stock. I don’t know who started this, but the story is that it increases sustain, especially playing acoustic guitar, or electric slide guitar.

Mathijs

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Date: February 16, 2012 12:12

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Naturalust
If you've ever had your string height artificially very high (away from the pickups) yopu will see that string vibration to body wood has very little effect in the sound of the notes on a Les Paul. Although I understand the logic in and tightly bound vibration path (all of them).

Well, it takes the discussion to a different path, but for the last couple of years I actually wonder how much the body wood and the string vibration actually influences the tone. I am starting to believe that with an electric guitar the pickups and amp play a very, very large part of the total sound. I used to be quite a collector and trader of vintage electric guitars, having owned more than hundred pre-65 Gibson and Fender guitars. Now, I own just a couple, and all of them are cheap Mexican and Japanese made electrics, but with very good pickups. Through my Boogie MK1 from ’77, I can’t tell the difference between an all original ’55 Fender Tele and my Mexican $400 Tele from the 90’s, with vintage ’57 pickups installed. My ’59 RI LP (which I sold) with a ’60 PAF and ’65 Patent No sounded better than any vintage LP I have ever played. So I am not too sure the body wood is such a contributing factor over the electronics and hardware anymore.

Quote
Naturalust

I do however have to question your statement about the string tension increase. Yeah it maybe happens with a tighter stop bar, BUT it is always countered with an adjustment of the tuners to bring the string into correct (or relative) pitch. If you are playing with a set neck lenght (string length) and a specific guage of strings (mass) the string tension will always be the same. Length and Mass being the only two factors which effect pitch. That's why string manufacturer's can put tension numbers right on the package.

That being said I can tell the difference when my extra string lengths are wound ALL the way to the base of the tuners. And of course the Fenders accomplish this less elegantly with the string guide things on the headstock between the nut and the tuners.

Actually, the only factor defining pitch (or frequency of a standing wave) is length. The mass alters the amplitude of a vibrating string, altering the volume.

But what I meant was: a proper vibrating string (meaning: a proper standing wave) can only occur when the ends of the string are tightly fixed. Any movement at any end will alter the vibration, making the ‘swing’ of the string wider, and the amplitude of the standing wave smaller. With a stop bar raised too high, the string will vibrate in the slot holes of the bridge.

The peg head of a guitar is quite a contributor to the overall string vibration, and winding the string all the way down will have its effect, although I am not sure if I actually would be able to hear that…but for the last couple of years you see more and more people having a capo clamped to the head stock. I don’t know who started this, but the story is that it increases sustain, especially playing acoustic guitar, or electric slide guitar.

Mathijs

Mathijs, can you please explain more re. the capo clamped on the head stock. Thanks

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: howled ()
Date: February 16, 2012 12:22

Quote
Mathijs
Well, it takes the discussion to a different path, but for the last couple of years I actually wonder how much the body wood and the string vibration actually influences the tone. I am starting to believe that with an electric guitar the pickups and amp play a very, very large part of the total sound. I used to be quite a collector and trader of vintage electric guitars, having owned more than hundred pre-65 Gibson and Fender guitars. Now, I own just a couple, and all of them are cheap Mexican and Japanese made electrics, but with very good pickups. Through my Boogie MK1 from ’77, I can’t tell the difference between an all original ’55 Fender Tele and my Mexican $400 Tele from the 90’s, with vintage ’57 pickups installed. My ’59 RI LP (which I sold) with a ’60 PAF and ’65 Patent No sounded better than any vintage LP I have ever played. So I am not too sure the body wood is such a contributing factor over the electronics and hardware anymore.
Mathijs

The body and neck wood do contribute to the tone of an electric guitar, but there are many other things also involved, such as the hardware, the pickups, the amps, the effects, impedance matching and mismatching and even cables (cable loss, cable capacitance), and last but not least the player themselves and also their ears.

[www.calaverasfretworks.com]

[www.calaverasfretworks.com]

[210.101.116.28]

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: February 16, 2012 13:29

Yes Mathijs, I agree with you about the pickups and your general take on solid body electric guitars. When talking about semi acoustics and hollow-bodies the guitar body has a much LARGER contribution to the overall sound you will probably agree.

Not to be argumentative here but I have to call you on the string tension pitch thing though. A simple experiment will prove my point about mass (string mass) and it's effects on pitch.

1. Get one of those spilt BB sinkers for a fishing line.
2. Pluck any string on your guitar and note the pitch.
3. Now pluck it again and quickly clamp the BB sinker onto the guitar string. The pitch will go DOWN considerably.

String length is the same, pitch is lower because the string mass has changed. Its also why we have wound strings for guitars. The wound part over the top of the solid core is there JUST to increase mass so that the tension is relatively similar on all six strings, even though the pitch is obviously different and the string lengths are almost the same. Just like clamping the BB on the string.

The capo over the headstock seems like a good trick to me. Like I said earlier Fender (and others) have been doing this for year with the little hold downs, 2 or 3 of 'em usually. I am just anal about getting all the winds on the string, right down to the bottom of the tuner. I have argue with guitar makers over this effect but have proven that I CAN tell the difference, and I perfer a relatively high break angle over the nut. Same thing is achieved with the capo clamped above the neck, that's cool.

Guitars with slotted headstocks ALWAYS maintain the same break angle, regardless of how many winds you put on the string at the tuner. That's one of the reasons I really like that design on acoustic instruments. peace

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: howled ()
Date: February 16, 2012 14:27

Les Pauls that are Mahogany/Maple do sound different to a Strat that is Alder/Ash/Maple even if they both have the same PAF pickup installed and the amp used is the same for both guitars.

There is the Strat/Les Paul hardware and string tension/scale differences but even so,the Mahogany/Maple Alder/Ash/Maple wood difference does contribute.

There is also an attack and decay release difference with softer woods like Basswood having a slower smoother initial attack and harder woods like Hard Ash have a more immediate and snappier initial attack.

It's because the initial string vibration encounters different vibration patterns from harder and softer wood (and also hardware vibrations) and the body vibrations do influence how the string vibrates through it's cycles from the initial string attack and it's decay.

The string is not vibrating in free space.

The vibrating string induces vibrations in the wood and these wood vibrations then feed back and influence the vibrating string and it's vibrations.
Different vibration patterns in different wood types will affect the strings vibrations in different ways.

There are also hardware vibration influences on how the string ends up vibrating, such as the Strat's spring and tremolo system vibrations etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-02-16 14:42 by howled.

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: February 16, 2012 14:37

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
Naturalust
If you've ever had your string height artificially very high (away from the pickups) yopu will see that string vibration to body wood has very little effect in the sound of the notes on a Les Paul. Although I understand the logic in and tightly bound vibration path (all of them).

Well, it takes the discussion to a different path, but for the last couple of years I actually wonder how much the body wood and the string vibration actually influences the tone. I am starting to believe that with an electric guitar the pickups and amp play a very, very large part of the total sound. I used to be quite a collector and trader of vintage electric guitars, having owned more than hundred pre-65 Gibson and Fender guitars. Now, I own just a couple, and all of them are cheap Mexican and Japanese made electrics, but with very good pickups. Through my Boogie MK1 from ’77, I can’t tell the difference between an all original ’55 Fender Tele and my Mexican $400 Tele from the 90’s, with vintage ’57 pickups installed. My ’59 RI LP (which I sold) with a ’60 PAF and ’65 Patent No sounded better than any vintage LP I have ever played. So I am not too sure the body wood is such a contributing factor over the electronics and hardware anymore.

Quote
Naturalust

I do however have to question your statement about the string tension increase. Yeah it maybe happens with a tighter stop bar, BUT it is always countered with an adjustment of the tuners to bring the string into correct (or relative) pitch. If you are playing with a set neck lenght (string length) and a specific guage of strings (mass) the string tension will always be the same. Length and Mass being the only two factors which effect pitch. That's why string manufacturer's can put tension numbers right on the package.

That being said I can tell the difference when my extra string lengths are wound ALL the way to the base of the tuners. And of course the Fenders accomplish this less elegantly with the string guide things on the headstock between the nut and the tuners.

Actually, the only factor defining pitch (or frequency of a standing wave) is length. The mass alters the amplitude of a vibrating string, altering the volume.

But what I meant was: a proper vibrating string (meaning: a proper standing wave) can only occur when the ends of the string are tightly fixed. Any movement at any end will alter the vibration, making the ‘swing’ of the string wider, and the amplitude of the standing wave smaller. With a stop bar raised too high, the string will vibrate in the slot holes of the bridge.

The peg head of a guitar is quite a contributor to the overall string vibration, and winding the string all the way down will have its effect, although I am not sure if I actually would be able to hear that…but for the last couple of years you see more and more people having a capo clamped to the head stock. I don’t know who started this, but the story is that it increases sustain, especially playing acoustic guitar, or electric slide guitar.

Mathijs

Mathijs, can you please explain more re. the capo clamped on the head stock. Thanks

With a good guitar like a les Paul, the neck vibrates quite a bit when chords are played. The idea is that when you increase the length and mass of the head stock, the vibration will increase and you get better tone, more volume and better sustain. To what extent is the ungoing debate -the change in tone between a Les Paul with Grovers and with Klusons is and has been discussed for years now.

I am still not convinced. I think a great part of the playing experience is expectation. I find a les Paul with Grovers much better looking, and they work much better than Klusons. So, I guess I will then always prefer a Les Paul with Grovers, and will play it with more joy, and hence I will think it sounds better or different.

Mathijs

Re: Mick T's Guitars
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: February 16, 2012 14:41

Quote
howled
Les Pauls that are Mahogany/Maple do sound different to a Strat that is Alder/Ash/Maple even if they both have the same PAF pickup installed.

There is the Strat/Les Paul hardware and string tension/scale differences but even so,the Mahogany/Maple Alder/Ash/Maple wood difference does contribute.

There is also an attack and decay release difference with softer woods like Basswood having a slower smoother initial attack and harder woods like Hard Ash have a more immediate and snappier initial attack.

It's because the initial string vibration encounters different vibration patterns from harder and softer wood and the body vibrations do influence how the string vibrates through it's cycles from the initial string attack and it's decay.

The string is not vibrating in free space.

The vibrating string induces vibrations in the wood and these wood vibrations then feed back and influence the vibrating string and it's vibrations.
Different vibration patterns in different wood types will affect the strings vibrations in different ways.

Of course the choice of wood has a large effect on the sound of the guitar, no doubt about that. But I meant that I am not so sure I can hear the difference between a '50's ash Telecaster and a new, modern ash Telecaster -as long as the pickups are of the same high sonic qualities. I don't hear the difference between a '64 Strat, and a Custom Shop strat with mid-60's pickups.

Mathijs

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