Because some people are hypocrites governments should not act on environmental issues? I must say I don't follow that line of reasoning. It's beyond stupid...

Quote
Rockman
Really? I didn’t know she could think!


Paris Hilton rang and told her …..

That’s weak sauce, guys. Ask Alice Johnson how she feels about Kim Kardashian. Kim may be not your cuppa tea but how many of you have secured the freedom of a woman imprisoned for a non-violent drug offense? Sure, she’s frivolous. Whatever. But her advocacy helps people who have been wronged.

I totally didn't say that. I believe it's important to find a common ground so the fruitless back-and-forth about eating eggs, owning jeeps, being owned by jeep, sailing-to and flying back and so on can come to an end

The sun is in a "silent" cycle. No spots. Scientists are watching. There is no argument that humans are affecting the planet's environment. The planet has also affected its own environment. Several times. Certainly we should do our best. Maybe start with environmentally correct tour trucks and planes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-09-22 02:44 by bleedingman.

I wasn't aiming at you, Nikkei. Or anyone special. It's a general argument.

That’s weak sauce, guys.

Not really Lazaare when you think where
Mr & Mrs West are planning to be living in 2024 ……



ROCKMAN

Quote
peoplewitheyes
erudite analysis, LazarusSmith

erudite use of the word erudite peoplewitheyes.

"All the world is a stage"


"The lie is different at every level"

Quote
nick
If the climate is a political issue and you delete political posts then how do these topics continue? I was actually trying to get other people to tell us how to help in our own daily lives vs just preaching about it...

I will be more precise:
The Climate Changes are a scientificly proven fact, not a politically constructed problem. However, to solve this problem, we need solutions made by politicians. That is why it is a political case.

If you see a horse with six legs and make a picture of it, without using photoshop, then it is a fact, not politics. Feel free to post a picture here. If a politicial says he has seen a horse with six legs, it is politics, then don't bother about writing it here.

There are so many lies in politics these days. That is why I don't want any politics on IORR. I don't want more lies spread around.

The Climate Changes are proven by tons of scientific teams and universities across the world, highly skilled researchers who are experts on weather, climate, nature, ecology and so on. The number of bees is getting crazy low. Nomber of insects and birds falling rapidly. Ice bears will be gone because they have no place to stay, same with penguins. Norway have many glaciers, they are going away, I can see it myself. THey are large as mountanins and they melt like crazy, have not happened in thousands of years. The snow on Kilimanjaro will be gone. Dorian was the 2nd strongest Atlantic storm in history, the previously measured one was back in 1935. The official number of deaths in Abaco and Grand Bahamas in the Bahamas due to hurricane Dorian is 50 or so but then they don't count the hundreds, may be thousand, of Haiti immigrants staying in The Mudd at Marsh Harbour, they just drowned.

I will allow climate discussions here as long bas they are done on a proven scientific level. Give me the munbers. Tell me the name of the universities who have the numbers. What university and what scientific team and report is saying that there is nothing to be worried about?

The sad fact is that there will be category 5 hurricanes more and more often. Thousands will die from hurricanes every year. People die from flooding even in Norway, we are a rich country but this summer flooding killed, and it is getting worse every year.

'The poor are punished': Dorian lays bare inequality in the Bahamas

Bjornulf

I don't think that there are many people here who think that the climate isn't changing.

you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows

………………………..……………………. Subterranean Homesick Blues - Bob Dylan



ROCKMAN

Quote
SomeGuy
I don't think that there are many people here who think that the climate isn't changing.

If it didn’t I would panic.

Quote
Redhotcarpet

Quote
SomeGuy
I don't think that there are many people here who think that the climate isn't changing.

If it didn’t I would panic.

Right.

Of course it’s real, I met a guy a couple of years ago who told me he lived in the northern part of Alaska and said he had a giant picture window with a view of a glacier and they were watching it melt away, as he said”quicker than you’d think”
Problem is they’ve moved most manufacturing to China and they don’t really
have a tolerance for complaining.
Remember when they held the Olympics a few years ago? Thats what the air looked like in Los Angeles in the 70s.
We’ve done a pretty good job of cleaning things up but a big part of that is having India and China do the wests dirty work.
The Globalists have just moved things around, you open your mouth over there they’ll disappear your ass.
Please someone say the Chinese are stepping up their efforts,I need a laugh.just like they are gonna stop stealing intellectual property and putting people in prison camps, sure let’s sign an agreement, we’ll get right on that you dumb Yankees.

I keep seeing the same arguments about the climate changing naturally, as if that makes it ok to do nothing.

When I worked as a counselor/advocate I always told people that if you have a valid argument, then let it stand up on it's own. Don't try to embellish it or leave bits out because you think it will make your argument better, it won't. All it does is allow people who don't want to believe it to invalidate it if they find a flaw in it. A flaw doesn't necessarily invalidate a whole argument, but it will in the mind of those who don't want to believe it.

If I have a criticism of many climate change scientists and experts it is that I have too often seen them try to ignore or even deny the earth's natural cooling/warming cycle. It exists and can be clearly seen in historical data from ice cores etc. In fact we are in the upward phase of the cycle.

So if that is your argument, then yes, you have a valid argument in that it exists, but you still don't have a valid argument that it invalidates the whole climate change argument, it doesn't. And after all, it doesn't really matter what proportion of the blame we should take, it only really matters that the Earth is getting hotter (and there is no argument against that) and that we are, at the very least, exacerbating the problem. It makes no sense to make a bad situation worse.

The other argument I see a lot is that "they said there would be an ice age, then they said global warming, that never happened so now they say climate change."

The ice age idea came about around 40 years or so ago, and it shouldn't be seen as a completely different idea that they gave up on, but more like an early predictive model that has come a long way since then. The basic theory is that rising ocean temperatures means more evaporation, which means more moisture in the air, more precipitation, more snow at the ice caps which get bigger, reflect more sunlight and cool things down.
But in the last 40 years our models have got better. They are like the predictive models that we have seen a lot recently predicting where tropical storms and hurricanes will go around the Bahamas, etc. We are quite good at it now.
Global Warming was also not an idea that never happened, it is still happening, the name change to Climate Change was, I think, an attempt to give the phenomenon a more descriptive name, not a change of theory. Global Warming seems to imply that nothing else is changing, just the planet getting warmer, but that is not the case. There are many effects of increasing global temperatures. Higher temperatures still means more evaporation, more rain, more moisture in the atmosphere to build stronger storms, etc. Higher temperatures also mean higher temperature differentials, which means stronger winds. Etc. etc.

So this whole argument doesn't stack up, they are not all separate theories that we keep replacing one with another, they are all one evolving theory that we come to understand better as we go along.

And none of this is the whole problem anyway, there is still the problem of unprecedented extinctions, poisoning of the water tables, plastic in the oceans ... do you know that male sperm count has gone down 60% in recent decades, largely because of pesticides and other pollutants?

You can carry on chipping little bits off the argument, but you have still said nothing to invalidate it.

This is real and this is dangerous, pull your head out of your xxxx and wake up to it, it affects you as well as me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-09-22 12:45 by JimmyShelter.

Hello friends,

here's a voice from 1967 (!!)

Quote
Jimi Hendrix, 1967
Is this true?
Please let me talk to you, let me talk to you
I have lived here before the days of ice
And of course this is why I'm so concerned
And I come back to find the stars misplaced
And the smell of a world that has burned
A smell of the world that has burned

Yeah well maybe, maybe it's just a change of climate, mmm mm

In my humble opinion:

The point of no return has already been passed. For exaample, the global warming heating up Siberia alone will push that climate change forward very strongly.

What most people still don't really realise IMHO is this:

I have absolutely NO WORRIES about this planet!

Why?

Well, Earth will blink with the eyes once and it's 100.000 or more years gone - no big deal. And by then, everything is back to some ecological balance as it has been so many times before.

If there's still some humankind - well, then it will have survived and learned to behave within the given limits.

Still, I do have very positive visions for a futute human culture! But that's another story.

My most important point in this matter is, that it's we, who are in danger, not the planet.

And there will be no other rescue than to cope with the environment and adjust our behavior. We can do it! But there will be no other choice left for us than that.

And this is very much precicely that, what Greta communicates.

Many best wishes to you, friends of the Stones!

Johannes

Quote
bv

I will be more precise:
The Climate Changes are a scientificly proven fact, not a politically constructed problem. However, to solve this problem, we need solutions made by politicians. That is why it is a political case.

Sneaky problem is that many politicians are either corrupt i.e have a double agenda or don't have the real power. Most obvious examples are to be found in Brazil, the US, Poland, Russia, China. The real power is in the hands of dubious multinationals. Countries are claiming territory to start exploiting polluting fossil energy resources, and they won't stop until the last drop of oil has been blown in the air.
Besides, climate chance /CO2 pollution /global warming is not the only problem. Trees absorb CO2 as we all know.
There's only 15% left of the original forest in the world, and it's on fire, the chainsaws getting louder and louder all over the world, and it's getting worse. The world population is increasing in a frightening tempo, thus poverty and lack of decent education increases which leads to more dubious and polluting jobs delivered by dubious employers; people in poor countries want to live to the standards of the prosperous countries - and they have the right to.
The list of fatal issues all over the globe is much larger of course.
One must be quite an optimist to see things changing for the better on the long term, unless either a miracle or a disaster happens - let's say Halley's comet strikes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-09-22 13:58 by TheflyingDutchman.

Quote
waterrats

And this is very much precicely that, what Greta communicates.

Actually she doesn't tell anything new. Does anyone remember this one?


19th Century: Cree Indian Prophecy

Quote
Irix

Quote
waterrats

And this is very much precicely that, what Greta communicates.

Actually she doesn't tell anything new. Does anyone remember this one?


19th Century: Cree Indian Prophecy

But a lot of people doen't remember.
BTW: It's quoted here e.g: Aurora: The Seed

At most parks there are Wastebaskets paid by our tax money. Yet there is trash allover the park. Cause is not related to stupidity or laziness but indifference.

some advice for people how don't believe in climate change. got out, take a walk in some forest and see all those spruce trees that are dying (or all already dead) because of extremely hot summmers in Europe.

Quote
Chris Fountain
At most parks there are Wastebaskets paid by our tax money. Yet there is trash allover the park. Cause is not related to stupidity or laziness but indifference.

Is this in the US?......

Quote
EddieByword

Quote
Chris Fountain
At most parks there are Wastebaskets paid by our tax money. Yet there is trash allover the park. Cause is not related to stupidity or laziness but indifference.

Is this in the US?......

Yep take a drive round town this morning. - Better thoughts - Drive around with "No Particular Place to Go" and don't hold a grudge against the safety belt that wouldn't budge"

Quote
waterrats

And this is very much precicely that, what Greta communicates.

Actually she doesn't tell anything new. Another two examples:


Year 1972 - The Club of Rome (Massachusetts Institute of Technology):



[www.Amazon.com]


Year 2004 - Update:



[www.Amazon.com]

Doesn't surprise me one bit that Mick and Keith got ripped for supporting a good cause. While the young people, the Millenials are supposedly protesting, and making their voices heard, so much of their kind of message is diluted, eroded by their very own online hate, complacency and Schadenfreude.
Instead of embracing someone like Keith who is rattled enough to speak up, we get the most obvious mean spirited zingers about smoking etc. Could some of those comments be rooted in envy too? (btw didn't Keith do "Running too Deep' about this a while back?)
the Stones have almost never championed causes, or flown a flag, but I'd say that they have done more for race relations, sexuaL freedom than others.

Quote
JimmyShelter
I keep seeing the same arguments about the climate changing naturally, as if that makes it ok to do nothing.

When I worked as a counselor/advocate I always told people that if you have a valid argument, then let it stand up on it's own. Don't try to embellish it or leave bits out because you think it will make your argument better, it won't. All it does is allow people who don't want to believe it to invalidate it if they find a flaw in it. A flaw doesn't necessarily invalidate a whole argument, but it will in the mind of those who don't want to believe it.

If I have a criticism of many climate change scientists and experts it is that I have too often seen them try to ignore or even deny the earth's natural cooling/warming cycle. It exists and can be clearly seen in historical data from ice cores etc. In fact we are in the upward phase of the cycle.

So if that is your argument, then yes, you have a valid argument in that it exists, but you still don't have a valid argument that it invalidates the whole climate change argument, it doesn't. And after all, it doesn't really matter what proportion of the blame we should take, it only really matters that the Earth is getting hotter (and there is no argument against that) and that we are, at the very least, exacerbating the problem. It makes no sense to make a bad situation worse.

The other argument I see a lot is that "they said there would be an ice age, then they said global warming, that never happened so now they say climate change."

The ice age idea came about around 40 years or so ago, and it shouldn't be seen as a completely different idea that they gave up on, but more like an early predictive model that has come a long way since then. The basic theory is that rising ocean temperatures means more evaporation, which means more moisture in the air, more precipitation, more snow at the ice caps which get bigger, reflect more sunlight and cool things down.
But in the last 40 years our models have got better. They are like the predictive models that we have seen a lot recently predicting where tropical storms and hurricanes will go around the Bahamas, etc. We are quite good at it now.
Global Warming was also not an idea that never happened, it is still happening, the name change to Climate Change was, I think, an attempt to give the phenomenon a more descriptive name, not a change of theory. Global Warming seems to imply that nothing else is changing, just the planet getting warmer, but that is not the case. There are many effects of increasing global temperatures. Higher temperatures still means more evaporation, more rain, more moisture in the atmosphere to build stronger storms, etc. Higher temperatures also mean higher temperature differentials, which means stronger winds. Etc. etc.

So this whole argument doesn't stack up, they are not all separate theories that we keep replacing one with another, they are all one evolving theory that we come to understand better as we go along.

And none of this is the whole problem anyway, there is still the problem of unprecedented extinctions, poisoning of the water tables, plastic in the oceans ... do you know that male sperm count has gone down 60% in recent decades, largely because of pesticides and other pollutants?

You can carry on chipping little bits off the argument, but you have still said nothing to invalidate it.

This is real and this is dangerous, pull your head out of your xxxx and wake up to it, it affects you as well as me.

This. The most intelligent post on this thread, IMO.

Drew

Quote
Irix

Quote
waterrats

And this is very much precicely that, what Greta communicates.

Actually she doesn't tell anything new. Another two examples:


Year 1972 - The Club of Rome (Massachusetts Institute of Technology):

Year 2004 - Update:

EXACTLY!

I had that issue fron 1972, called "Global 2000". Since then, I think, nobody can excuse himself like "Oh, I didn't know about that." It was all there already by that time.

When I was allowed to vote in an election in Germny for the first time, I was 20 and it was the first time the green party stood on the list. To be honest, I voted for them then and I still do.

In 1980 they got some good results for beeing a completely new party, but it was really meager: they only got 1.5%, hehehe.

It was then that I said: "Should they ever get the absolute majority, then it'll be too late!"

Quote
Chris Fountain

Quote
EddieByword

Quote
Chris Fountain
At most parks there are Wastebaskets paid by our tax money. Yet there is trash allover the park. Cause is not related to stupidity or laziness but indifference.

Is this in the US?......

Yep take a drive round town this morning. - Better thoughts - Drive around with "No Particular Place to Go" and don't hold a grudge against the safety belt that wouldn't budge"

The UK is like a trash can too...............the reason I ask, I went to Burl's creek and was struck by the lack of litter...............Just to the right of the stage there were 4 burger / veggie vans and long queues,,,,,,I looked around and was amazed. Not one bit of litter...not one............Then, I noticed is was the same along the train tracks back to Toronto and in Toronto.......just virtually no litter.

I asked a Canadian girl about it, she said that in school they are all taught...."Leave no trace".

It seems the UK and US could learn something.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-09-22 17:17 by EddieByword.

"We can no longer save the planet by playing by the rules", says Greta.

Personally I find this Greta idolizing phenomenon quite scary. (And her parents should be reprimanded for child abuse of this poor girl.)

We get fear mongering, then the notion that anything should be allowed to avert the "catastrophe." Freedom, self determination, democracy and the ability to think for yourself are being sacrificed. That, in history, has never ended well before.

Quote
SomeGuy
"We can no longer save the planet by playing by the rules", says Greta.

Personally I find this Greta idolizing phenomenon quite scary. (And her parents should be reprimanded for child abuse of this poor girl.)

We get fear mongering, then the notion that anything should be allowed to avert the "catastrophe." Freedom, self determination, democracy and the ability to think for yourself are being sacrificed. That, in history, has never ended well before.

The one thing she says is "listen to the scientists". She wants politicians to act on the matter. Nothing else.
I'm more scared by your views than hers. You want status quo. Business as usual. As if that is going to solve anything.