Tell Me :
Talk
Trombone?
Mathijs
The Mellotron has prerecorded tapes. It isn’t hard to get the soundscapes he made. The idea to do it on this song is fantastic though, it makes the track. And he didn’t have perfect pitch with the slide. Taylor had perfect pitch with the slide, and Lowell George, and Derek Trucks. Not Brian Jones. His idea to play a slide solo on I Wanna Be Your Man is brilliant though.
Mathijs
Being serious. That's fair enough, his playing just doesn't resonate with you.
Whilst I don't agree about much of it being mediocre, there is an element of amateurism (as there is for all of the Rolling Stones in 60's) and a lazyness to his musicianship.
He coasted on natural talent to a degree. His slide guitar peak was in 1964. That he didn't develop as a guitarist after that is ashame because the talent was there.
kind of, bit also not. It's easy to sound bad on a mellotron, but also easy to sound good with just one note.
Sample patches are not the same as the physical aspects and th wobbly and wonky uncertainty surrounding playing a real mellotron is removed. The note will always be right and the same with samples, that is not the case with a real one.
Brian's We Love you part is straight forward enough to play with samples. Depends on the samples though. If they have soft attack it ain't happening. It's a very different thing when trying to play it on a real one though, it's as much a physical battle as a musical one. To get that hard attack on the tapes and be in time is not easy.
Harder to play than any Rolling Stones guitar part.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-16 21:59 by His Majesty.
A joke gone wrong.
Should have typed tuba. See previous posts for context.
You asked about me playing Nicky Hopkins piano. I can’t of course. But you can learn al lot from him trying to understand why he is so good - his timing, his phrasing, his use of triplets as finishing lines in his melodies, his use of rhythm to make it all flow, and to make it all so musical. I have the same with Richards up to about 1973. Most of what he plays on Exile for example is easy to play. But why does it sound so bloody fantastic, and why is it nearly impossible to copy? Same with Taylor -it’s one thing to copy the notes he plays, but his sense of timing, his vibrato and especially his melodic sense is unparalleled, and almost impossible to copy. I don’t have that with Brian. He played beautiful parts, but it doesn’t invite me to figure out what he plays. Take his slide on No Expectations: hauntingly beautiful. But technically anyone can learn to play this within 45 minutes. And I’ve always found the execution a bit wobbly and shaky, and in need of being held together by the piano.
Mathijs
You are funny.
He played beautiful parts, No Expectations is hauntingly beautiful, but it doesn't invite you to figure out what he played and then you go on to explain because you rather obviously have figured out what he played that it could be learned in 45 minutes as if this is somehow a bad thing.
Loads of stones parts can be learned in less than 45 minutes. I haven't heard much if any people capturing the vibe and feel of various Brian parts. They usually sound a bit too normal.
You have had a thing against Brian for all the time I have been been a member here, probably for years before that too. You hold a special place consisting of a different set of rules for that wee talented monster.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-18 16:56 by His Majesty.
Brian Jones just doesn’t rock my boat. Perhaps it’s a bit the same what I have with the Beatles. I find just about anything done by Lennon and Harrison more interesting than done by Paul McCartney.
Mathijs
"He played beautiful parts... his slide on No Expectations: hauntingly beautiful"
Yeah.
Pffff...
There’s just a few Brian Jones parts I really like. All of his harmonica playing was fantastic, I love his energy on the first album, I like his solo on I Wanna Be Your Man, the rhythm guitar of Mona, the lead on The Last Time, the marimba of Under My Thumb, the mellotron of 2000LYFH, the sitar of PIB and SFM, and his slide on No Expectations, which I find his sole masterpiece.
I don’t like his guitar playing and guitar sound that much on just about everything else as I find it mediocre at best. I don’t like his image, I don’t like the role he played within the band, and above all he comes across as a nasty and not like-able person.
Mathijs
Even the guitar parts you have mistakenly thought were Keith?
Not everything Keith has done was majestic, no.
Mathijs
You liked them when you thought they were Keith.
Basically, you don't like The Rolling Stones, not the real one atleast.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-18 19:17 by His Majesty.
I like the Stones for a different reason than you. We both love the UK Aftermath, but probably for a different reason.
I am curious though, which parts I thought where Keith’s did I like?
Ps I forgot Brian’s fantastic slide on Little Red Rooster.
Mathijs
There's been a few over the years. I'd have to search it out which I cannot be arsed doing.
The slide you have said is little more than amateur over the years?
I like the mood and atmosphere he brings to LLR, and how he plays it with such a true confidence and spirit, something he seemed to have lost so quickly on guitar. As said, I think he only excelled at the harmonica, something he kept doing until at least Beggars Banquet.
Mathijs
Yes Short Fat Fanny but this setlist actually makes my point because I count only 1 and a half songs in which his contribution adds value. Take ‘Satisfaction,’ for example. His acoustic guitar on that number isn’t what rocketed them to stardom. Any semi-competent guitarist could play that – even Mick Taylor.
Paint It Black of course is a different story. Unfortunately for Brian there was only a 2 or 3 year window during the 60s when gimmicky instruments were in vogue.
I admire Mathijs for ignoring the baiting and passive aggressive smileys of His Majesty and instead simply and methodically explaining why he finds Brian’s playing slightly inadequate. Very persuasive too, I must say. The ‘wobbliness’ of his slide in No Expectations is particularly well observed (although it only makes me love his plaintive playing all the more…and let’s give Jack Nitzsche a footnote too while we’re at it!)
As Mathijs has hinted at, Brian’s two biggest contributions were not in fact musical, strictly speaking. First, if he hadn’t been so hopeless as a songwriter, it’s possible that Keith and Mick wouldn’t have been encouraged to hone their own songwriting skills and create iconic tunes like Sympathy for the Devil (a song the calibre of which Brian couldn’t hope to match had he lived to be 75…although in fairness it should be mentioned that he & the gals absolutely shine during the woo-wooing). So that was a lucky break. And then of course there’s his abuse of women. If he hadn’t punched out Anita she may have never come to complicate Keith’s life in ways that would inspire him to write classics like Gimme Shelter. So way to go Bri!
But what Mathijs leaves unsaid I will say: Only a kook would put this guy on a pedestal.
Add in ignorance and this sums up your presence on this thread.
it is tricky often to carry on a 'regular' converse with a guy across the pond e.g. - it's an open worldwide forum, and you are typing in little boxes. So, mannerisms and asides among friends can often be misconstrued, and need to be explained etc.
I am pretty sure that there is only love and respect between those two.
I was also reading a couple pages of the thread, and had to chuckle at Mathijs for saying "I don't really like Brian; I only like..." and then list a pretty awesome set of classic contributions.
My feelings about Brian are usually in flux. It is actually Phil (Majesty) who reminds me of his strenghts. You can't help but thinking "Man would he have blossomed if he had only been given more time". Cleaned up, strong and confident again, and taking the time to develop these fleeting excursions into an instrument, a fashion - I think he would have made his own statement.
Keith may pretend he is a wild man but he seems to be very patient and methodical about guitar playing. He will go all in. For months, years.
Flip The Switch - Beautiful Delilah
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Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: August 16, 2019 21:34
Quote
His MajestyQuote
paulspendel
My God, how can you call this mediocre is beyond me, the haunting melletron, the perfect pitch on the slide which is incredible hard to maintain, and all this coming from the same person.
He's awful, a mere footnote that played kazoo and trombone on a few songs which he didn't write.
Get with the programme.
Trombone?
Mathijs
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: August 16, 2019 21:39
Quote
paulspendel
My God, how can you call this mediocre is beyond me, the haunting melletron, the perfect pitch on the slide which is incredible hard to maintain, and all this coming from the same person.
The Mellotron has prerecorded tapes. It isn’t hard to get the soundscapes he made. The idea to do it on this song is fantastic though, it makes the track. And he didn’t have perfect pitch with the slide. Taylor had perfect pitch with the slide, and Lowell George, and Derek Trucks. Not Brian Jones. His idea to play a slide solo on I Wanna Be Your Man is brilliant though.
Mathijs
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 16, 2019 21:43
Quote
Mathijs
... it doesn’t excite me from an execution point of view.
Being serious. That's fair enough, his playing just doesn't resonate with you.
Whilst I don't agree about much of it being mediocre, there is an element of amateurism (as there is for all of the Rolling Stones in 60's) and a lazyness to his musicianship.
He coasted on natural talent to a degree. His slide guitar peak was in 1964. That he didn't develop as a guitarist after that is ashame because the talent was there.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 16, 2019 21:55
Quote
Mathijs
The Mellotron has prerecorded tapes. It isn’t hard to get the soundscapes he made. The idea to do it on this song is fantastic though, it makes the track.
Mathijs
kind of, bit also not. It's easy to sound bad on a mellotron, but also easy to sound good with just one note.
Sample patches are not the same as the physical aspects and th wobbly and wonky uncertainty surrounding playing a real mellotron is removed. The note will always be right and the same with samples, that is not the case with a real one.
Brian's We Love you part is straight forward enough to play with samples. Depends on the samples though. If they have soft attack it ain't happening. It's a very different thing when trying to play it on a real one though, it's as much a physical battle as a musical one. To get that hard attack on the tapes and be in time is not easy.
Harder to play than any Rolling Stones guitar part.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-16 21:59 by His Majesty.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 16, 2019 22:15
Quote
Mathijs
Trombone?
Mathijs
A joke gone wrong.
Should have typed tuba. See previous posts for context.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
paulspendel
()
Date: August 16, 2019 22:57
You all seem to look at it from a technical angle. It’s the idea that counts.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 16, 2019 23:15
.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-17 12:07 by His Majesty.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-17 12:07 by His Majesty.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
paulspendel
()
Date: August 17, 2019 09:43
Fair enough.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: August 18, 2019 07:38
Quote
His Majesty
.
You asked about me playing Nicky Hopkins piano. I can’t of course. But you can learn al lot from him trying to understand why he is so good - his timing, his phrasing, his use of triplets as finishing lines in his melodies, his use of rhythm to make it all flow, and to make it all so musical. I have the same with Richards up to about 1973. Most of what he plays on Exile for example is easy to play. But why does it sound so bloody fantastic, and why is it nearly impossible to copy? Same with Taylor -it’s one thing to copy the notes he plays, but his sense of timing, his vibrato and especially his melodic sense is unparalleled, and almost impossible to copy. I don’t have that with Brian. He played beautiful parts, but it doesn’t invite me to figure out what he plays. Take his slide on No Expectations: hauntingly beautiful. But technically anyone can learn to play this within 45 minutes. And I’ve always found the execution a bit wobbly and shaky, and in need of being held together by the piano.
Mathijs
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 18, 2019 16:27
Quote
Mathijs
He played beautiful parts, but it doesn’t invite me to figure out what he plays. Take his slide on No Expectations: hauntingly beautiful. But technically anyone can learn to play this within 45 minutes.
Mathijs
You are funny.
He played beautiful parts, No Expectations is hauntingly beautiful, but it doesn't invite you to figure out what he played and then you go on to explain because you rather obviously have figured out what he played that it could be learned in 45 minutes as if this is somehow a bad thing.
Loads of stones parts can be learned in less than 45 minutes. I haven't heard much if any people capturing the vibe and feel of various Brian parts. They usually sound a bit too normal.
You have had a thing against Brian for all the time I have been been a member here, probably for years before that too. You hold a special place consisting of a different set of rules for that wee talented monster.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-18 16:56 by His Majesty.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: August 18, 2019 17:46
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Mathijs
He played beautiful parts, but it doesn’t invite me to figure out what he plays. Take his slide on No Expectations: hauntingly beautiful. But technically anyone can learn to play this within 45 minutes.
Mathijs
You are funny.
He played beautiful parts, No Expectations is hauntingly beautiful, but it doesn't invite you to figure out what he played and then you go on to explain because you rather obviously have figured out what he played that it could be learned in 45 minutes as if this is somehow a bad thing.
Loads of stones parts can be learned in less than 45 minutes. I haven't heard much if any people capturing the vibe and feel of various Brian parts. They usually sound a bit too normal.
You have had a thing against Brian for all the time I have been been a member here, probably for years before that too. You hold a special place consisting of a different set of rules for that wee talented monster.
Brian Jones just doesn’t rock my boat. Perhaps it’s a bit the same what I have with the Beatles. I find just about anything done by Lennon and Harrison more interesting than done by Paul McCartney.
Mathijs
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 18, 2019 17:58
Quote
Mathijs
Brian Jones just doesn’t rock my boat.
"He played beautiful parts... his slide on No Expectations: hauntingly beautiful"
Yeah.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: August 18, 2019 18:38
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Mathijs
Brian Jones just doesn’t rock my boat.
"He played beautiful parts... his slide on No Expectations: hauntingly beautiful"
Yeah.
Pffff...
There’s just a few Brian Jones parts I really like. All of his harmonica playing was fantastic, I love his energy on the first album, I like his solo on I Wanna Be Your Man, the rhythm guitar of Mona, the lead on The Last Time, the marimba of Under My Thumb, the mellotron of 2000LYFH, the sitar of PIB and SFM, and his slide on No Expectations, which I find his sole masterpiece.
I don’t like his guitar playing and guitar sound that much on just about everything else as I find it mediocre at best. I don’t like his image, I don’t like the role he played within the band, and above all he comes across as a nasty and not like-able person.
Mathijs
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 18, 2019 18:56
Quote
Mathijs
I don’t like his guitar playing and guitar sound that much on just about everything else as I find it mediocre at best.
Mathijs
Even the guitar parts you have mistakenly thought were Keith?
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: August 18, 2019 19:00
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Mathijs
I don’t like his guitar playing and guitar sound that much on just about everything else as I find it mediocre at best.
Mathijs
Even the guitar parts you have mistakenly thought were Keith?
Not everything Keith has done was majestic, no.
Mathijs
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 18, 2019 19:02
Quote
Mathijs
Not everything Keith has done was majestic, no.
Mathijs
You liked them when you thought they were Keith.
Quote
Mathijs
... I don’t like - I find it mediocre - I don’t like - I don’t like...
Mathijs
Basically, you don't like The Rolling Stones, not the real one atleast.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-08-18 19:17 by His Majesty.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: August 18, 2019 19:22
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Mathijs
Not everything Keith has done was majestic, no.
Mathijs
You liked them when you thought they were Keith.Quote
Mathijs
... I don’t like - I find it mediocre - I don’t like - I don’t like...
Mathijs
Basically, you don't like The Rolling Stones, not the real one atleast.
I like the Stones for a different reason than you. We both love the UK Aftermath, but probably for a different reason.
I am curious though, which parts I thought where Keith’s did I like?
Ps I forgot Brian’s fantastic slide on Little Red Rooster.
Mathijs
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 18, 2019 19:24
Quote
Mathijs
I am curious though, which parts I thought where Keith’s did I like?
Ps I forgot Brian’s fantastic slide on Little Red Rooster.
Mathijs
There's been a few over the years. I'd have to search it out which I cannot be arsed doing.
The slide you have said is little more than amateur over the years?
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: August 18, 2019 19:32
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Mathijs
I am curious though, which parts I thought where Keith’s did I like?
Ps I forgot Brian’s fantastic slide on Little Red Rooster.
Mathijs
There's been a few over the years. I'd have to search it out which I cannot be arsed doing.
The slide you have said is little more than amateur over the years?
I like the mood and atmosphere he brings to LLR, and how he plays it with such a true confidence and spirit, something he seemed to have lost so quickly on guitar. As said, I think he only excelled at the harmonica, something he kept doing until at least Beggars Banquet.
Mathijs
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Swayed1967
()
Date: August 19, 2019 10:02
Quote
shortfatfanny
*footnote : 7/19 songs from 50 years+ ago when Brian was a full member...
Yes Short Fat Fanny but this setlist actually makes my point because I count only 1 and a half songs in which his contribution adds value. Take ‘Satisfaction,’ for example. His acoustic guitar on that number isn’t what rocketed them to stardom. Any semi-competent guitarist could play that – even Mick Taylor.
Paint It Black of course is a different story. Unfortunately for Brian there was only a 2 or 3 year window during the 60s when gimmicky instruments were in vogue.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Swayed1967
()
Date: August 19, 2019 10:07
Quote
MathijsQuote
His MajestyQuote
Mathijs
Not everything Keith has done was majestic, no.
Mathijs
You liked them when you thought they were Keith.Quote
Mathijs
... I don’t like - I find it mediocre - I don’t like - I don’t like...
Mathijs
Basically, you don't like The Rolling Stones, not the real one atleast.
I like the Stones for a different reason than you. We both love the UK Aftermath, but probably for a different reason.
I am curious though, which parts I thought where Keith’s did I like?
Ps I forgot Brian’s fantastic slide on Little Red Rooster.
Mathijs
I admire Mathijs for ignoring the baiting and passive aggressive smileys of His Majesty and instead simply and methodically explaining why he finds Brian’s playing slightly inadequate. Very persuasive too, I must say. The ‘wobbliness’ of his slide in No Expectations is particularly well observed (although it only makes me love his plaintive playing all the more…and let’s give Jack Nitzsche a footnote too while we’re at it!)
As Mathijs has hinted at, Brian’s two biggest contributions were not in fact musical, strictly speaking. First, if he hadn’t been so hopeless as a songwriter, it’s possible that Keith and Mick wouldn’t have been encouraged to hone their own songwriting skills and create iconic tunes like Sympathy for the Devil (a song the calibre of which Brian couldn’t hope to match had he lived to be 75…although in fairness it should be mentioned that he & the gals absolutely shine during the woo-wooing). So that was a lucky break. And then of course there’s his abuse of women. If he hadn’t punched out Anita she may have never come to complicate Keith’s life in ways that would inspire him to write classics like Gimme Shelter. So way to go Bri!
But what Mathijs leaves unsaid I will say: Only a kook would put this guy on a pedestal.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 19, 2019 10:41
Quote
Swayed1967
... baiting and passive aggressive...
Add in ignorance and this sums up your presence on this thread.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: August 19, 2019 13:16
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Swayed1967
... baiting and passive aggressive...
Add in ignorance and this sums up your presence on this thread.
it is tricky often to carry on a 'regular' converse with a guy across the pond e.g. - it's an open worldwide forum, and you are typing in little boxes. So, mannerisms and asides among friends can often be misconstrued, and need to be explained etc.
I am pretty sure that there is only love and respect between those two.
I was also reading a couple pages of the thread, and had to chuckle at Mathijs for saying "I don't really like Brian; I only like..." and then list a pretty awesome set of classic contributions.
My feelings about Brian are usually in flux. It is actually Phil (Majesty) who reminds me of his strenghts. You can't help but thinking "Man would he have blossomed if he had only been given more time". Cleaned up, strong and confident again, and taking the time to develop these fleeting excursions into an instrument, a fashion - I think he would have made his own statement.
Keith may pretend he is a wild man but he seems to be very patient and methodical about guitar playing. He will go all in. For months, years.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 19, 2019 14:04
Mathijs added bass to one of my tunes before. I scrapped his part because it was mediocre and could be played by anyone.
But, even in re-recorded form it is little more than an excercise in pastiche and I am useless at writing words so it hasn't amounted to anything anyway. Not even a footnote.
Phil's pastiche
Edited to include more baiting and passive aggressive smilies.
But, even in re-recorded form it is little more than an excercise in pastiche and I am useless at writing words so it hasn't amounted to anything anyway. Not even a footnote.
Phil's pastiche
Edited to include more baiting and passive aggressive smilies.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
paulspendel
()
Date: August 19, 2019 15:01
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 19, 2019 15:04
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
paulspendel
()
Date: August 19, 2019 15:10
your music sounds good too! very atmospheric. A bit like the soundtrack for 'A degree of murder'.
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
paulspendel
()
Date: August 19, 2019 15:12
Let's see what 'Jukebox Jury' Mathijs comes up with....
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 19, 2019 16:56
Quote
paulspendel
Let's see what 'Jukebox Jury' Mathijs comes up with....
Flip The Switch - Beautiful Delilah
Re: New Documentary on the Death of Brian Jones
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: August 19, 2019 18:43
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