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TheflyingDutchman

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Doxa

What goes for the stressing the technical level of musicianship I find that generally very odd in the context of the Stones. None of them have been any master musicians in a technical level. Okay, probably Taylor's fluidity once was pretty exceptional, but hey, to shine technically in a lead guitar department of the Stones is not that big accomplishment. One doesn't exactly need to be a virtuoso for that.

Charlie and Bill... great musicians for sure, but their greatness do not derive from a technical point of view. Technically limited, but solid guys to do their job. Both Keith and Ronnie are pretty rough and even sloppy players. Especially in the case of Keith - my favourite guitar player with Jimi - his idiosyncracy might give the impression of 'Hey, this is difficult to copy', but that's nothing to do with technical finesse (forget the metaphysical vocabulary of touch, feel, timing, etc.) Damn, no one make such a noise John Lee Hooker did either, and his technical abilities were a bit limited, to put it mildly. Still, or because of that, I think Hooker is one of the most efficient blues guitar players ever lived. Mick? He would never do well in any Idols competitions, full of technically perfect singers.

I think sometimes the fandom and adoration simply makes tricks. If there is something a bit extraordinary happening - say, Keith puts a bit quicker run of notes than he normally does - that is interpreted something standing out and technically striking. Although, more cooler heads might simply recognize that something any competent guitar player pretty often does, without that further notice. Another funny consequence of true adoration making tricks is that of wanting to leave the magic there, like not even wanting to know how to copy the idol's licks exactly. Simply out of adoration. This is something Keith himself mentioned about Scott Moore's solo in "I'm left, You're Right, She's Gone". So we Keith Richards fans, no matter how great guitar players we might be, we never get the riff of "Brown Sugar" right, if even that of "Satisfaction". Probably we also be the only people in the world recognizing our failure, since we hear there something, thanks to our trained, adoring ears, no one else does.

A highly competent, technically-gifted musician or someone thinking music solely in terms of technical aptness, should, if being consistent and fair, point out about to any instrumental part in a Stones recording by our principals, 'yeah, but it is pretty simple'. (Funnily, I do know such people, and they keep telling me how mediocre, even poor players all of the Stones are. But even for most of them that does not really matter, thankfully).

But doesn't that - pointing their technical mediocracy - sound trivial? You know, like missing the whole point in their music?

So I think it boils down to the fact if the part fits to the whole (and with that what kind of impression the whole does). And in that the Stones are masters, even genius occasionally.

That was also what Brian Jones was all about. Also for that reason I am thrilled hearing his parts isolated, as His Majesty has done to us.

- Doxa

You just nailed it. Like Jeff Beck once said: "The Rolling Stones, that is about designer sloppiness".

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His Majesty

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Doxa
But we are good here?

I am not done with IORR, but I am with Mathijs.

Life is too short... He will say that 'I am one of those Brian fans that just credits him with everything', then say awhile later 'My Brian research is great'. Will say a part is too good to be Brian, then say that part is crap once it's shown it was played by Brian. The woodgrain on a guitar isn't visible, now it is. Then there's the stink bombs he occasionally posts on my Brian Resource Facebook page etc. Re-blocked to avoid what's happened here occuring there.

Phew. I'd rather NOT be saying any of this. Unrelated recent events have given me reason to reassess priorities, to try to be better, more positive. Let's move on, in peace, engaging in good faith with things we enjoy.

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His Majesty
The Rolling Stones - Ready Steady Go - 7th August 1964.

Around and Around: [youtu.be]

Line up:
Brian Jones - rhythm guitar
Mick Jagger - vocals
Keith Richards - lead & rhythm guitar
Bill Wyman - bass guitar
Charlie Watts - drums

A demonstration showing the essentials of what Brian played: [youtu.be]

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His Majesty
Maybe? Or an incidence of coincidence?

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His Majesty
Brian Jones - home recording: [youtu.be]

An extract of a home recording of a song Brian wrote with Ready Steady Go presenter Michael Aldred. Possibly recorded at 7 Elm Park Lane, London circa 1965 - 1966.

line up:
Brian Jones - vocals & 12 string acoustic guitar

The short extract of the recording is taken from the documentary film 'The Stones & Brian Jones'. There was debate as to whether the recording features Brian or Michael singing. Luckily, I was able to hear more of the recording and from this I was able to confirm it is Brian singing and playing a 12 string acoustic guitar.

Additionally, a friend recently met Bill Wyman at an event and personally asked him about who was singing on the recording. Surprised that there was debate, a startled Bill responded, "Of course it was Brian singing, he was trying to write a song."

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His Majesty
Bye bye IORR.

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His Majesty
Brian Jones - home recording: [youtu.be]

An extract of a home recording of a song Brian wrote with Ready Steady Go presenter Michael Aldred. Possibly recorded at 7 Elm Park Lane, London circa 1965 - 1966.

line up:
Brian Jones - vocals & 12 string acoustic guitar

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His Majesty
Brian Jones - home recording: [youtu.be]

An extract of a home recording of a song Brian wrote with Ready Steady Go presenter Michael Aldred. Possibly recorded at 7 Elm Park Lane, London circa 1965 - 1966.

line up:
Brian Jones - vocals & 12 string acoustic guitar

The short extract of the recording is taken from the documentary film 'The Stones & Brian Jones'. There was debate as to whether the recording features Brian or Michael singing. Luckily, I was able to hear more of the recording and from this I was able to confirm it is Brian singing and playing a 12 string acoustic guitar.

Additionally, a friend recently met Bill Wyman at an event and personally asked him about who was singing on the recording. Surprised that there was debate, a startled Bill responded, "Of course it was Brian singing, he was trying to write a song."

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Rocky Dijon
I love posts by His Majesty and posts by Mathijs. They both have helped make IORR the best Stones resource online. Can we please get a ceasefire in the hostilities so both can share their knowledge and passion here without forcing us into picking sides?

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Rocky Dijon
What next? Why did Bill remove himself from the cover of RARITIES? Why are there only four thermographic photos on the cover of EMOTIONAL RESCUE? What does it all mean?

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DandelionPowderman
The Stones didn't have anything to do with the release of Hot Rocks, so ABKCO would have to answer for that back cover, I guess.

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Taylor1

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DandelionPowderman
The Stones didn't have anything to do with the release of Hot Rocks, so ABKCO would have to answer for that back cover, I guess.

That is irrelevant because it was the Stones themselves who decided they would be the poses for the picture

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His Majesty

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Mathijs

So Brian smashed a guitar in 1969 that he gave away in late 1965, and after being played throughout the 1970's ended up with full provenance with an UK collector? Wow man.

Brian played both his reverse and non reverse Gibson Firebird VII guitars during the summer 1966 US tour. The Rolling Stones still have the non reverse VII. The reverse VII used in 1966 was the same one he played in 1965. The woodgrain matches.

Lots of collectors have things that aren't or might not be what they believe them to be and they are often very resistant to info which casts doubt regarding what they have, usually, spent a lot of money on.

So, if the provenance say's Brian gave the reverse VII away in late 1965, perhaps that provenance is out by 6 months or it is just dubious.

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Taylor1
His Majesty, how come on the Flowers Album, Brian is the only flower stem with no pedals? Why on the back cover of Hot Rocks is he the only one who looks like he is about to fall off the wall.Also, on the inner sleeve of Beggar’s, Mick and Keith are enjoying the Banquet while Brian looks frustrated with a dog jumping on him.In the Child of the Moon video he is not with the band,but peering behind a tree.And on the Through the Past Darkly album photo., he is the only one lying on the ground with his eyes open.Were these inside jokes?

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His Majesty

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Mathijs
The Firebird now has a refinished body, all else original. Patterns of the inlays and grain of the wood match with Brian's guitar.

Mathijs

Believe it when I see it, but I won't see it.

Who refinishes a guitar with such a connection? You previously said the wood grain wasn't visible because of the refinish. I asked how do they know it's Brian's then?