Tell Me :
Talk
Neither is blatant racism.
People dressed in plastic bags
Directing traffic
Some kind of fashion
Drew
Hatred comment right there. That was a cheap shot.
So as a women you never would have tea with me. Good my wet teabag has a better chance of understanding and compassion.
No.
Racism is the oppression of a human being on account of race, religion, etc. Millions of people around the world suffer its consequences daily. My country was founded on it. I remember watching on TV police dogs attack black men who wanted the right to vote in the land of the free, almost two centuries after its founding. It still goes on today.
Criticism of religion, or a particular religion, is not racism it is legitimate discourse. Personally, I hate all religions. I have nothing good to say about any of them. Name me one and I will tell you why it is evil, including the one I was born into. It is just my opinion. It doesn't mean I don't have respect for people who don't believe as I do or think they should be treated differently than anyone else. I just think that the belief in the supernatural has lad to more suffering in the world than anything else.
The failure to distinguish between racism (directed at people, human beings) and criticism of ideology or cult (completely legitimate), unfortunately sometimes leads to death (Denmark, Charlie).
People have the absolute right to equal treatment regardless of their beliefs. Doesn't mean that we can't criticize, and indeed ridicule, those beliefs.
I've never heard of an atheist physically harming anyone in a terroristic way. But that doesn't mean it's true, either. From what I've ever seen, anyway.
All true, but we need to stand behind those who are attacked and killed for their beliefs. Free speech is the right to be offensive. The Charlie Hebdo cartoons were certainly offensive in that they ridiculed religious beliefs. Muslim, Christian, Jewish. They offended and offend everyone. That's what they do, but some believe that what they did was worthy of the death penalty. No I do not believe they share an ounce of culpability in what happened to them.
That is, unless integration instead of segregation or aggressive assimilation contributes to make those with foreign origin embrace certain key European values. Then exposed to the modern society in the same way once traditional Christianity in its various divisions was, other religions existing in more orthodox forms, among them Islam especially, may go through more or less similiar developments. A somewhat formulaic expression of the viewpoint, but still.
I agree personally, but you can't just think on a personal level. I might be Christian, but I find LIFE OF BRIAN funny and think it makes excellent points about the dangers of fundamentalism (among many other serious topics that are dealt with humor). Had the target been Islam and a false prophet and the film resulted in an attack that killed innocents, I would certainly condemn the terrorists and I might very well still defend the artists' freedom of speech. However, if I were the artist, I would likely be thinking, "I made that happen. My satire cost innocent people their lives." It's a bit like Terry Gilliam's THE FISHER KING where Jeff Bridges' shock jock character goads his caller to act and then suffers consequences on multiple levels for years thereafter. I'm not suggesting limiting freedom of speech at all. I am suggesting everyone should try to think of the consequences of what they write publicly or say publicly. You can be 100% correct in all you believe, but how you express can cause hurt or worse, true harm to others. No one presumably wants that no matter how fed up they may be that others don't think or act like they do. The key is to make the world better, not worse. Trying to show people who are different than you respect and kindness so that hopefully you receive the same back is the key to building a society rather than tearing it down.
That to me is more important than whether a country has the same demographics in race, nationality, religion, or political ideology a century from now. Change comes for better or worse. It always has.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-17 17:23 by Rocky Dijon.
Good point. "While Europe Slept" was written years ago but oh boy are his predictions proving true. Scary
No, they don't.
You post using the moniker of a man who (used to be) considered the worst potus ever, and then are surprised the replies to your political postings are "attacked". You lead with politics in every post with that moniker, and them whine when contrary political postings come back at ya.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-17 20:25 by MisterDDDD.
Once apparently quite deeply established and so long in existence, it seems hard to counterwork such a segregation and instead further integration, yes. But so much needed, I belong to those who think.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Midnight Toker
()
Date: December 17, 2017 01:18
The topics in the IORR should stick to MUSIC only. Liberal politics
are not my cup of tea on this message board.Sorry.
are not my cup of tea on this message board.Sorry.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: December 17, 2017 01:19
^^^^^^^^ YEP!!!! ... totally agreeeeeeeeeeeee ...
ROCKMAN
ROCKMAN
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Koen
()
Date: December 17, 2017 01:33
Quote
Midnight Toker
The topics in the IORR should stick to MUSIC only. Liberal politics
are not my cup of tea on this message board.Sorry.
Neither is blatant racism.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
drewmaster
()
Date: December 17, 2017 01:59
Quote
whitem8
Eddie- Racist and culturally intolerant saying people are dressed in "black bags". And saying because of this England is lost! We all know the intention behind this!
People dressed in plastic bags
Directing traffic
Some kind of fashion
Drew
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
whitem8
()
Date: December 17, 2017 02:22
So true Koen. Liberal has nothing to do with being an honorable human that is against racism and intolerance.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
More Hot Rocks
()
Date: December 17, 2017 03:39
Quote
Midnight Toker
The topics in the IORR should stick to MUSIC only. Liberal politics
are not my cup of tea on this message board.Sorry.
Hatred comment right there. That was a cheap shot.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Cooltoplady
()
Date: December 17, 2017 03:44
Quote
Midnight Toker
The topics in the IORR should stick to MUSIC only. Liberal politics
are not my cup of tea on this message board.Sorry.
So as a women you never would have tea with me. Good my wet teabag has a better chance of understanding and compassion.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Rokyfan
()
Date: December 17, 2017 04:21
Quote
MisterDDDDQuote
Rokyfan
Racism is a horrible thing that has real consequences to millions of people around the world. It is unfortunate that the word had been dumbed down so that every comment someone doesn't like is called racist. To me, racism is an ancient scourge that persists. It is not a question of words bot oppression. The word has lost its meaning
The word hasn't been "dumbed down" at all.
Calling racism out has increased, as it should as society progresses.
Exaggerating (..every comment someone doesn't like) and bemoaning the fact that it's called out doesn't make racist comments any less racist.
No.
Racism is the oppression of a human being on account of race, religion, etc. Millions of people around the world suffer its consequences daily. My country was founded on it. I remember watching on TV police dogs attack black men who wanted the right to vote in the land of the free, almost two centuries after its founding. It still goes on today.
Criticism of religion, or a particular religion, is not racism it is legitimate discourse. Personally, I hate all religions. I have nothing good to say about any of them. Name me one and I will tell you why it is evil, including the one I was born into. It is just my opinion. It doesn't mean I don't have respect for people who don't believe as I do or think they should be treated differently than anyone else. I just think that the belief in the supernatural has lad to more suffering in the world than anything else.
The failure to distinguish between racism (directed at people, human beings) and criticism of ideology or cult (completely legitimate), unfortunately sometimes leads to death (Denmark, Charlie).
People have the absolute right to equal treatment regardless of their beliefs. Doesn't mean that we can't criticize, and indeed ridicule, those beliefs.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Nate
()
Date: December 17, 2017 04:49
It is not important to protect the hurt feelings of people because they have their beliefs criticised.What is important is the truth and the freedom to criticise without the fear of being punished for doing so.
Islam along with every other religion is a set of ideas not a racial group.People should be free to ridicule and mock religion at every opportunity for its stupidity and laughable beliefs.
Nate
Islam along with every other religion is a set of ideas not a racial group.People should be free to ridicule and mock religion at every opportunity for its stupidity and laughable beliefs.
Nate
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 17, 2017 06:05
So if you publicly mock religion for its "stupidity and laughable beliefs" and one of its followers decides to respond by detonating a bomb on their person at a public gathering or driving a vehicle into a crowd of innocents, do you have any culpability then? Are you really any better than a racist who publicly shows their ignorance and intolerance by upsetting others with their public statements?
I'm not opposed to atheism or people who reject any form of organized religion. It certainly should be their right as much as it is to believe in something intangible and unprovable. The key is not to be offensive in expressing your differences. Some might even call it the Golden Rule. Really, that's far more valuable than believing anything else. Just trying being polite to one another. It makes friendships and relationships, real or online, so much easier.
I'm not opposed to atheism or people who reject any form of organized religion. It certainly should be their right as much as it is to believe in something intangible and unprovable. The key is not to be offensive in expressing your differences. Some might even call it the Golden Rule. Really, that's far more valuable than believing anything else. Just trying being polite to one another. It makes friendships and relationships, real or online, so much easier.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
swimtothemoon
()
Date: December 17, 2017 07:22
Took me awhile to figure out what the post ment by “black sacks”. If indeed this
was a racial slam, as it now appears to me, than this was beyond inappropriate.
was a racial slam, as it now appears to me, than this was beyond inappropriate.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: December 17, 2017 09:06
Quote
Rocky Dijon
So if you publicly mock religion for its "stupidity and laughable beliefs" and one of its followers decides to respond by detonating a bomb on their person at a public gathering or driving a vehicle into a crowd of innocents, do you have any culpability then? Are you really any better than a racist who publicly shows their ignorance and intolerance by upsetting others with their public statements?
I'm not opposed to atheism or people who reject any form of organized religion. It certainly should be their right as much as it is to believe in something intangible and unprovable. The key is not to be offensive in expressing your differences. Some might even call it the Golden Rule. Really, that's far more valuable than believing anything else. Just trying being polite to one another. It makes friendships and relationships, real or online, so much easier.
I've never heard of an atheist physically harming anyone in a terroristic way. But that doesn't mean it's true, either. From what I've ever seen, anyway.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
nick
()
Date: December 17, 2017 09:13
Using Jagger as a "prop" to make it ON topic to keep this thread up is just wrong.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 17, 2017 09:17
Didn't intend to suggest it either, GasLight. Words have consequences more than hurt feelings, though. You make a valid point, but stamping out religious fanaticism is a bit like stamping out excessive greed or lust for power. It's a nice idea, but show me a world where it doesn't exist. You certainly won't get there by insulting what people value so the best you can do is try to promote tolerance and education.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-17 09:18 by Rocky Dijon.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-17 09:18 by Rocky Dijon.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
triceratops
()
Date: December 17, 2017 13:04
China will still be Chinese one hundred years from now. Japan will still be Japanese. In one hundred years Europe will not be European. How do I know this? Go into the kindergartens and grammar schools of England, France, Germany, Sweden, Italy, Holland etc and see who the students are. Less than half are native European. This tells you what the demographic trends are.
(fwiw I live in America)
(fwiw I live in America)
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Nate
()
Date: December 17, 2017 14:24
Why do some people believe that religion should be afforded a special protection from being criticised.When people use violence against those who make fun of their beliefs it exposes how weak and fragile those beliefs are.
Nate
Nate
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
bv
()
Date: December 17, 2017 14:40
Racist, hate and intolerance comments are often well hidden in a "nice" way of saying something, so that moderators and people wor read it will not see it, so that we don't really understand it is racist, hate or simply negativity.
Once the troll is seen, the sun is up, and the troll realize the sun will highlight all the bad parts of it, there are always plenty of excuses. "I did not mean to offend". "Somebody bent my words". All sorts of excuses to get away from dark thougths and inappropriate speaking.
Today I read a comment which was made by a person in our biggest national paper, who surely was out on a fishing trip... Asking the newspaper (vg.no): "How can you moderate a question?" "How can a question be hate or even moderated"? My answer to this is very simple. Just make us change the comment in this thread a question:
"Why do human beings walk around in black sacks while it was 35 degrees in the shade?"
If it was a question from a three years old child, may be it was appropriate, but a three years old child would never ask or even think such a question.
I don't want any discussions here on IORR about religion, racism, politics or any of those issues, mainly because such discussions will always be hijacked by well thought of hate and racist comments or questions, pretending to be acceptable and "clean", still they are well though of hate and/or racist.
I have traveled the world many times, thanks to the Stones tours and other missions. My experience, from seing and meeting people all over the world, is that every person on this planet mostly work hard to survive, on his/her own, and also to make family and close friends surviving and safe. Very very few people are evil by nature. Please do NOT bring evil thoughts into the world, and certainly not into IORR.
Bjornulf
Once the troll is seen, the sun is up, and the troll realize the sun will highlight all the bad parts of it, there are always plenty of excuses. "I did not mean to offend". "Somebody bent my words". All sorts of excuses to get away from dark thougths and inappropriate speaking.
Today I read a comment which was made by a person in our biggest national paper, who surely was out on a fishing trip... Asking the newspaper (vg.no): "How can you moderate a question?" "How can a question be hate or even moderated"? My answer to this is very simple. Just make us change the comment in this thread a question:
"Why do human beings walk around in black sacks while it was 35 degrees in the shade?"
If it was a question from a three years old child, may be it was appropriate, but a three years old child would never ask or even think such a question.
I don't want any discussions here on IORR about religion, racism, politics or any of those issues, mainly because such discussions will always be hijacked by well thought of hate and racist comments or questions, pretending to be acceptable and "clean", still they are well though of hate and/or racist.
I have traveled the world many times, thanks to the Stones tours and other missions. My experience, from seing and meeting people all over the world, is that every person on this planet mostly work hard to survive, on his/her own, and also to make family and close friends surviving and safe. Very very few people are evil by nature. Please do NOT bring evil thoughts into the world, and certainly not into IORR.
Bjornulf
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Rokyfan
()
Date: December 17, 2017 15:44
Quote
Rocky Dijon
Didn't intend to suggest it either, GasLight. Words have consequences more than hurt feelings, though. You make a valid point, but stamping out religious fanaticism is a bit like stamping out excessive greed or lust for power. It's a nice idea, but show me a world where it doesn't exist. You certainly won't get there by insulting what people value so the best you can do is try to promote tolerance and education.
All true, but we need to stand behind those who are attacked and killed for their beliefs. Free speech is the right to be offensive. The Charlie Hebdo cartoons were certainly offensive in that they ridiculed religious beliefs. Muslim, Christian, Jewish. They offended and offend everyone. That's what they do, but some believe that what they did was worthy of the death penalty. No I do not believe they share an ounce of culpability in what happened to them.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: December 17, 2017 16:53
Quote
triceratops
China will still be Chinese one hundred years from now. Japan will still be Japanese. In one hundred years Europe will not be European. How do I know this? Go into the kindergartens and grammar schools of England, France, Germany, Sweden, Italy, Holland etc and see who the students are. Less than half are native European. This tells you what the demographic trends are.
(fwiw I live in America)
That is, unless integration instead of segregation or aggressive assimilation contributes to make those with foreign origin embrace certain key European values. Then exposed to the modern society in the same way once traditional Christianity in its various divisions was, other religions existing in more orthodox forms, among them Islam especially, may go through more or less similiar developments. A somewhat formulaic expression of the viewpoint, but still.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 17, 2017 17:15
Quote
Rokyfan
All true, but we need to stand behind those who are attacked and killed for their beliefs. Free speech is the right to be offensive. The Charlie Hebdo cartoons were certainly offensive in that they ridiculed religious beliefs. Muslim, Christian, Jewish. They offended and offend everyone. That's what they do, but some believe that what they did was worthy of the death penalty. No I do not believe they share an ounce of culpability in what happened to them.
I agree personally, but you can't just think on a personal level. I might be Christian, but I find LIFE OF BRIAN funny and think it makes excellent points about the dangers of fundamentalism (among many other serious topics that are dealt with humor). Had the target been Islam and a false prophet and the film resulted in an attack that killed innocents, I would certainly condemn the terrorists and I might very well still defend the artists' freedom of speech. However, if I were the artist, I would likely be thinking, "I made that happen. My satire cost innocent people their lives." It's a bit like Terry Gilliam's THE FISHER KING where Jeff Bridges' shock jock character goads his caller to act and then suffers consequences on multiple levels for years thereafter. I'm not suggesting limiting freedom of speech at all. I am suggesting everyone should try to think of the consequences of what they write publicly or say publicly. You can be 100% correct in all you believe, but how you express can cause hurt or worse, true harm to others. No one presumably wants that no matter how fed up they may be that others don't think or act like they do. The key is to make the world better, not worse. Trying to show people who are different than you respect and kindness so that hopefully you receive the same back is the key to building a society rather than tearing it down.
That to me is more important than whether a country has the same demographics in race, nationality, religion, or political ideology a century from now. Change comes for better or worse. It always has.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-17 17:23 by Rocky Dijon.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
matxil
()
Date: December 17, 2017 18:02
Thanks bv, for doing a great job keeping this forum clean.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
pt99
()
Date: December 17, 2017 19:08
Agreed. 99.9% of the political postings here attack conservativesQuote
Midnight Toker
The topics in the IORR should stick to MUSIC only. Liberal politics
are not my cup of tea on this message board.Sorry.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
pt99
()
Date: December 17, 2017 19:11
Quote
triceratops
China will still be Chinese one hundred years from now. Japan will still be Japanese. In one hundred years Europe will not be European. How do I know this? Go into the kindergartens and grammar schools of England, France, Germany, Sweden, Italy, Holland etc and see who the students are. Less than half are native European. This tells you what the demographic trends are.
(fwiw I live in America)
Good point. "While Europe Slept" was written years ago but oh boy are his predictions proving true. Scary
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: December 17, 2017 20:04
Quote
Rocky Dijon
Didn't intend to suggest it either, GasLight. Words have consequences more than hurt feelings, though. You make a valid point, but stamping out religious fanaticism is a bit like stamping out excessive greed or lust for power. It's a nice idea, but show me a world where it doesn't exist. You certainly won't get there by insulting what people value so the best you can do is try to promote tolerance and education.[/quoteAnd
HA! You got that right. My wife's son, a 27 year old millennial, is a very smart kid. Book smart, that is. Street smart I've never known someone dumber (or lazier). He goes on these rants (he's part of the 'stand in solidarity' crowd that thinks they're doing something when they say things on FaceBook) about how capitalism is evil and everything should be shared and on and on and on.
While he's not got a job, is living with us (and his girlfriend half way through the year) in the house his mom and I bought with evil capitalism, spends his time watching Middle Eastern videos on YouTube on the laptop his mom bought him with her evil captialism, shooting his BB gun out in the yard, was given permission to use the credit card which somehow meant going to Taco Bell 300 times a week was a great idea, not paying for ANYTHING, "looking" for a job in the meantime - all the while his mom has breast cancer and is dying and I told him he needs to shut up and not argue his points about why Syria matters or all kinds of other shit about Rojava etc that have NOTHING TO DO with reality. All my wife wanted was some pleasant time with him ie NOT ARGUE, preferably with him moved out and with a job so we could have a house to our own for a while.
Which happened - 2 weeks before she died, they moved out. So she sort of got what she wanted, it's just me alone in the house.
Greed is a result of capitalism but it is not capitalism. He continues to choose to see capitalism in a bad way only, even after all of his college years, partially paid for by his mom.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: December 17, 2017 20:18
Quote
potus43Agreed. 99.9% of the political postings here attack conservativesQuote
Midnight Toker
The topics in the IORR should stick to MUSIC only. Liberal politics
are not my cup of tea on this message board.Sorry.
No, they don't.
You post using the moniker of a man who (used to be) considered the worst potus ever, and then are surprised the replies to your political postings are "attacked". You lead with politics in every post with that moniker, and them whine when contrary political postings come back at ya.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-17 20:25 by MisterDDDD.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 17, 2017 20:19
Quote
MisterDDDDQuote
potus43Agreed. 99.9% of the political postings here attack conservativesQuote
Midnight Toker
The topics in the IORR should stick to MUSIC only. Liberal politics
are not my cup of tea on this message board.Sorry.
No, they aren't.
99.9% of political replies to your political postings may be "attacking" your conservative views, and that's likely where your confusion comes from.
Hope this helps.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: December 17, 2017 20:25
I know your situation was made even more difficult for what your wife was going through, GasLight, but at least some of what you describe is the norm regardless of what extreme kids embrace as young adults. Most will pick a direction contrary to their parents and are convinced they are smarter than their parents in every way. Usually, any opinion is better than their parents' view even when someone says the same thing as their parents. These days most kids also stumble badly on social media with resulting turmoil in their friendships and even in their jobs. They learn, eventually. They tell me, one day, they even come around to thinking their parents weren't so dumb after all. Not there yet myself, but I'll hold out hope. In the meantime, I try to convince them that family and friendships work better when you don't discuss politics and religion. How's that for ironic?
Regarding others' remarks about feeling like the injured party (politically and otherwise), life also works a lot better if you just identify as a person and not conservative or liberal. Just treat others well and respect differences and recognize that the media (I'm an American so my view is somewhat restricted) wants half their audience outraged about the other half at all times. Both conservative media and liberal media do it. Social media does it. It's great for ratings, it's terrible for people. Quit being a label and be a person. Look to what unites you with everyone else and not what divides you. The second you decide someone is "one of those," they have little chance of being an individual. Avoid the stupid programming and just see people as people. There's good and bad everywhere. The balance is still tipped in the good no matter how much attention the bad earns.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-17 20:33 by Rocky Dijon.
Regarding others' remarks about feeling like the injured party (politically and otherwise), life also works a lot better if you just identify as a person and not conservative or liberal. Just treat others well and respect differences and recognize that the media (I'm an American so my view is somewhat restricted) wants half their audience outraged about the other half at all times. Both conservative media and liberal media do it. Social media does it. It's great for ratings, it's terrible for people. Quit being a label and be a person. Look to what unites you with everyone else and not what divides you. The second you decide someone is "one of those," they have little chance of being an individual. Avoid the stupid programming and just see people as people. There's good and bad everywhere. The balance is still tipped in the good no matter how much attention the bad earns.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-17 20:33 by Rocky Dijon.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: December 17, 2017 22:08
I think what is disappointing to a lot of non racist people from London such as myself, is the lack if integration from different ethnic cultures in London and other cities in England.
Some second , third and fourth generation emigrants born in England still don't speak English.
Things appear segregated and agitated, not the shinning example of multicultural harmony the media makes London out to be.
Hence Brexit i guess.
Some second , third and fourth generation emigrants born in England still don't speak English.
Things appear segregated and agitated, not the shinning example of multicultural harmony the media makes London out to be.
Hence Brexit i guess.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
MrMibbs
()
Date: December 17, 2017 22:38
You love Michael Savage!Quote
potus43Agreed. 99.9% of the political postings here attack conservativesQuote
Midnight Toker
The topics in the IORR should stick to MUSIC only. Liberal politics
are not my cup of tea on this message board.Sorry.
Re: OT: Racist posting on IORR
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: December 17, 2017 22:47
Quote
stone4ever
I think what is disappointing to a lot of non racist people from London such as myself, is the lack if integration from different ethnic cultures in London and other cities in England.
Some second , third and fourth generation emigrants born in England still don't speak English.
Things appear segregated and agitated, not the shinning example of multicultural harmony the media makes London out to be.
Hence Brexit i guess.
Once apparently quite deeply established and so long in existence, it seems hard to counterwork such a segregation and instead further integration, yes. But so much needed, I belong to those who think.
This Thread has been closed
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