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Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Stoneage ()
Date: June 4, 2021 17:53

Quote
Testify
In my opinion, things must be contextualized, like some terms used in the past and today not very pleasant.
I don't think Clapton is racist, or rather we are all racists, the difference is the culture of the people and I find it hard to believe that Clapton's always musically blues culture makes him a racist. He may have taken a tough stance on immigration, but that doesn't mean being racist.

Yes, it does. Not the parts about immigration. It is not racist to be against immigration for instance. It is the part where he uses derogatory names for different groups of people and calls for them to be thrown out of the premises and the country. Listen to the rant. If that is not racism, nothing is.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Date: June 4, 2021 18:20

Quote
Testify
In my opinion, things must be contextualized, like some terms used in the past and today not very pleasant.
I don't think Clapton is racist, or rather we are all racists, the difference is the culture of the people and I find it hard to believe that Clapton's always musically blues culture makes him a racist. He may have taken a tough stance on immigration, but that doesn't mean being racist.

"Get the wogs out" is both discriminating and racist.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: RisingStone ()
Date: June 4, 2021 18:43

Quote
Did Eric Clapton Once Unleash a Racist Rant Onstage? by Dan MacGuill
Over the years, several purported transcripts have emerged, with various differences and points of commonality. It appears no recording of Clapton’s racist rant exists, so its exact wording is open to dispute, and we can’t verify the verbatim accuracy of any given set of direct quotations.

When you judge somebody, do it fairly.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Date: June 4, 2021 18:49

Quote
RisingStone
Quote
Did Eric Clapton Once Unleash a Racist Rant Onstage? by Dan MacGuill
Over the years, several purported transcripts have emerged, with various differences and points of commonality. It appears no recording of Clapton’s racist rant exists, so its exact wording is open to dispute, and we can’t verify the verbatim accuracy of any given set of direct quotations.

When you judge somebody, do it fairly.

He has been confronted with the transcripts numerous times, and I haven't seen him correct any of it, nor deny that he said it.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: RisingStone ()
Date: June 4, 2021 18:59

Quote
RisingStone
I personally feel I can’t rule out the possibility the reporter of Clapton’s infamous “quote” did the job by writing down what the punters told him or her, rather than the candid verbatim account, a word for word transcription of what Clapton articulated on stage, based on the audio-recorded source. The obscurity of where it was published in the first place and who typed it out also makes me have some reservations about its validity.

Don’t get me wrong, I am certain Clapton made a racist remark along with the support for Enoch Powell that night, which is inexcusable. I’m afraid, though, I wonder if his statement might have been warped in some way or other by an inadequate way of putting it in words, especially when you consider the significance of the results his speech brought about in the music world and beyond, the impact it caused. A live tape — I’m sure someone taped the gig — would be the indisputable evidence.

Okay Clapton doesn’t publicly deny the quote himself, either — but most likely he doesn’t remember what he said in a drunken state, which was of common occurrence in the mid-70’s.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: June 4, 2021 19:26

He remember it because he has to live with himself every day and I am sure he is well acquainted with his own beliefs. As I said before, drunkenness does not cause people to think things, it causes them to say what they believe. Reduced inhibitions are a known effect of alcohol consumption and in fact pretty much the reason for consuming it.

The guy had plenty of chances to redeem himself for his remarks; I doubt he took the opportunity which speaks volumes of his true thoughts.

jb

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: June 4, 2021 20:18

Quote
terraplane
At the last Crossroads benefit concert that B.B.King appeared at he said (paraphrasing) “I have been all round the world met kings and queens and none of them were as great a gentleman as Eric Clapton”.
Good enough for me

Yet there's people who don't know him, and/or have never even met him, who will continue to judge him for something nasty he said in a drunken state decades ago.

Not sure if this is the same show you were at, but here's a great clip from the Crossroads Festival 2010 w/BB, Clapton, Robert Cray, and Jimmie Vaughan:





_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-06-04 20:22 by Hairball.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Rocktiludrop ()
Date: June 4, 2021 20:55

Quote
Hairball
Quote
terraplane
At the last Crossroads benefit concert that B.B.King appeared at he said (paraphrasing) “I have been all round the world met kings and queens and none of them were as great a gentleman as Eric Clapton”.
Good enough for me

Yet there's people who don't know him, and/or have never even met him, who will continue to judge him for something nasty he said in a drunken state decades ago.

Not sure if this is the same show you were at, but here's a great clip from the Crossroads Festival 2010 w/BB, Clapton, Robert Cray, and Jimmie Vaughan:



Clapton at the end there, just sublime playing.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: June 4, 2021 21:01

I rather judge him by the measure that he bores me stiff every time. The thrill is gone? When was there even a thrill in the first place

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: June 4, 2021 21:08

Quote
Rocktiludrop
Quote
Hairball
Quote
terraplane
At the last Crossroads benefit concert that B.B.King appeared at he said (paraphrasing) “I have been all round the world met kings and queens and none of them were as great a gentleman as Eric Clapton”.
Good enough for me

Yet there's people who don't know him, and/or have never even met him, who will continue to judge him for something nasty he said in a drunken state decades ago.

Not sure if this is the same show you were at, but here's a great clip from the Crossroads Festival 2010 w/BB, Clapton, Robert Cray, and Jimmie Vaughan:



Clapton at the end there, just sublime playing.

I misread terraplane's original post thinking he was actually there, but instead he wrote "the last Crossroads benefit concert that B.B.King appeared at" which I think might have been 2013.

Quote
Nikkei
I rather judge him by the measure that he bores me stiff every time. The thrill is gone? When was there even a thrill in the first place

You could ask the Stones that as he's played with them live at least a couple of times, as well as recorded with them.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-06-04 21:08 by Hairball.

winking smileyRe: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Rocktiludrop ()
Date: June 4, 2021 21:19

Quote
Nikkei
I rather judge him by the measure that he bores me stiff every time. The thrill is gone? When was there even a thrill in the first place

[youtu.be]

Does this solo bore you, honestly winking smiley

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Rocktiludrop ()
Date: June 4, 2021 21:28

Or this
[m.youtube.com]

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: TheGreek ()
Date: June 4, 2021 21:31

Quote
RisingStone
Quote
Did Eric Clapton Once Unleash a Racist Rant Onstage? by Dan MacGuill
Over the years, several purported transcripts have emerged, with various differences and points of commonality. It appears no recording of Clapton’s racist rant exists, so its exact wording is open to dispute, and we can’t verify the verbatim accuracy of any given set of direct quotations.

When you judge somebody, do it fairly.
This is true and it is in the Eric Clapton- Life in 12 Bars DVD , which is a career retrospective and it is discussed in the DVD and shows footage from the concert where EC made the rant . Smoking gun included with the actually proof .

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: June 4, 2021 21:34

I recognize the technicality of it, but there's nothing to feel.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Rocktiludrop ()
Date: June 4, 2021 21:39

Quote
Nikkei
I recognize the technicality of it, but there's nothing to feel.

Each to their own, i admit he did get boring and slowed everything down as he got older but if you can't feel Little Wing above , what does make you feel ?

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: June 4, 2021 21:56

from the top of my head, I'd pick Ronnies solo here as an example [www.youtube.com]

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: stickyfingers101 ()
Date: June 4, 2021 22:05

Quote
Rocktiludrop
Quote
Nikkei
I recognize the technicality of it, but there's nothing to feel.

Each to their own, i admit he did get boring and slowed everything down as he got older but if you can't feel Little Wing above , what does make you feel ?

Hendrix or SRV's version, both of which are 1000x better??

Clapton is OK on the whole, but totally weak next to Hendrix & SRV.

then again, everybody is weak next to Hendrix and SRV.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: RisingStone ()
Date: June 4, 2021 23:51

Here I am questioning the validity of submitting somebody’s statement in the form of direct quotations (with “ “) for the purpose of judging or criticizing a person’s demeanor despite that solid proof — e.g. recording of Clapton’s speech from the evening — is not openly available, as if he actually articulated it verbatim (e.g. “Get the wogs out”). It’s not fair.

Quote
jbwelda
He remember it because he has to live with himself every day and I am sure he is well acquainted with his own beliefs. As I said before, drunkenness does not cause people to think things, it causes them to say what they believe. Reduced inhibitions are a known effect of alcohol consumption and in fact pretty much the reason for consuming it.

The guy had plenty of chances to redeem himself for his remarks; I doubt he took the opportunity which speaks volumes of his true thoughts.

“he has to live with himself every day and I am sure he is well acquainted with his own beliefs” — even if that contains some truth, why can it guarantee that he remembers it? Do you mean to say, he recollects his words uttered in the drunken state as exactly as transcribed in the quote of unknown origin, word-for-word mostly if not entirely? As mentioned in Dan Macguill’s article (put up on Snopes, which is a reputable fact-check website), two of the people in the audience testify that Clapton’s speech was not like the transcripts in circulation in its way of presentation.

Quote
TheGreek
Quote
RisingStone
Quote
Did Eric Clapton Once Unleash a Racist Rant Onstage? by Dan MacGuill
Over the years, several purported transcripts have emerged, with various differences and points of commonality. It appears no recording of Clapton’s racist rant exists, so its exact wording is open to dispute, and we can’t verify the verbatim accuracy of any given set of direct quotations.

When you judge somebody, do it fairly.
This is true and it is in the Eric Clapton- Life in 12 Bars DVD , which is a career retrospective and it is discussed in the DVD and shows footage from the concert where EC made the rant . Smoking gun included with the actually proof .

No, it’s not true. Life in 12 Bars mentions and discusses the incident, but does not contain the footage or recording from Birmingham. Clapton’s boozy rant heard on that portion (“Shut up! Shut up!”) is from somewhere else, presumably the 1974 American tour.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-06-05 02:58 by RisingStone.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: June 5, 2021 00:17

>Do you mean to say, he recollects his words uttered in the drunken state as
>exactly as transcribed in the quote of unknown origin, word-for-word mostly if not entirely?

I thought what I said was pretty clear: he knows what he thinks and how he views the world and those in it. Whether he communicates that honestly at any given point in time is another issue, but evidently he did pretty succinctly at some point, whether we have a word-for-word quote or merely a synopsis of his speech. I doubt he recalls his words verbatim but I bet he could recreate the prose pretty accurately off the top of his head. And I am sure he has, just not to me personally.

And yeah, out of any crowd I bet you can find two people who described an incident that must have happened on another planet. Especially after 20 or so years have passed by.

Personally I think dude peaked as a guitarist around about Live Peace In Toronto, and I loved the look he gave Yoko when she appeared on stage. I don't think that was because she was Japanese though, so kinda off topic.

jb

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: bleedingman ()
Date: June 5, 2021 00:46

Ear of the beholder and all that. I love Clapton but can see how some might not care for his playing.

The look Mick gives Eric after his solo on "Little Red Rooster" at the Atlantic City show speaks volumes.





Here's a short clip of Joe Bonamassa talking about Clapton's sound:




Here's Bonamassa and Clapton doing "Further On Up The Road":



Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Rocktiludrop ()
Date: June 5, 2021 00:54

Quote
Nikkei
from the top of my head, I'd pick Ronnies solo here as an example [www.youtube.com]

Yeah i felt that, Ronnies really raised his game in recent years.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: June 5, 2021 01:12

Eric and Duane taking the weaving to a very high level...bobbing, weaving, and dueling it out throughout in to a wild frenzy until it all settles in to the calm after the storm:





_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: RisingStone ()
Date: June 5, 2021 04:10

Quote
jbwelda
>Do you mean to say, he recollects his words uttered in the drunken state as
>exactly as transcribed in the quote of unknown origin, word-for-word mostly if not entirely?

I thought what I said was pretty clear: he knows what he thinks and how he views the world and those in it. Whether he communicates that honestly at any given point in time is another issue, but evidently he did pretty succinctly at some point, whether we have a word-for-word quote or merely a synopsis of his speech. I doubt he recalls his words verbatim but I bet he could recreate the prose pretty accurately off the top of his head. And I am sure he has, just not to me personally.

As I posted above, my debate is mainly about the validity and ethics of direct quotations from unreliable source without definitive evidence. Whether Clapton recalls his speech in detail or not is of secondary importance in my argument.

Quote
jbwelda
And yeah, out of any crowd I bet you can find two people who described an incident that must have happened on another planet. Especially after 20 or so years have passed by.

Did you read Dan Mcguill’s article? One of the two witnesses who gave the testimony, Caryl Phillips is a Caribbean immigrant who became a novelist [en.wikipedia.org] — he was a direct target of Clapton’s racist rant, so to speak. The other witness, Dave Wakeling, would later form The Beat (AKA English Beat), the suka/New Wave band and part of the 2-Tone genre, who consisted of three white and three black members [en.wikipedia.org]. Let that sink in.

Quote
jbwelda
Personally I think dude peaked as a guitarist around about Live Peace In Toronto, and I loved the look he gave Yoko when she appeared on stage. I don't think that was because she was Japanese though, so kinda off topic.

I am originally from the Land of the Rising Stone. I hope the above remark is not a manifestation of your inner racism, regardless of your liking her or not (I’m not a fan of her, by the way, I hastily add).

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: June 5, 2021 04:59

Land of the Rising Stone?

I know Dave Wakeling personally so yeah I have some clue about who he is. Lets review what you quoted from him:

begin quote:

“Clapton’s racist rant was protracted and intermittent over the course of the evening, and did not merely come in a single outburst.”

(It is unclear to me, maybe this was the article's author being quoted here, but to continue...)

Wakeling — “I don’t remember it all happening in one go. There were two or three episodes of it and he had a bit of a recap towards the end.”

end quote.

So he is saying it wasn't just one utterance, the fool went on and on and even further on, digging the hole deeper as he went. That's what you say Wakeling said, its right there in your post. Quoted from the article I did not bother reading. So I guess your point is that since this account doesn't completely jibe with other reports of a more concentrated but protracted statement, the whole incident is called into question.

On the word of two people, both of whom seem to agree it was a totally racist rant, but just spread out over an entire performance instead of as a concentrated blast as reported elsewhere. And both these people's accounts carry weight because one was an immigrant and the other fronted a band with black people in it.

I fail to see how this supports anything from your particular angle, to me it says he (Claptrap) did not just accidently drunkenly let some crap slip out, he went on and on and on and for sure knew what he was saying and who to, it wasn't just drunken slobbered comment.

I don't think I need to comment further, what I said stands. You are picking nits and hoping to distract from the issue. Not gonna work with me. Not even your accusations of me being an anti-Japanese racist, couched in the usual "concern" for my mental well being. Excuse me for the equally uncalled for personal observation, but what a twat.


thanks again
jb

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Big Al ()
Date: June 5, 2021 10:58

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Testify
In my opinion, things must be contextualized, like some terms used in the past and today not very pleasant.
I don't think Clapton is racist, or rather we are all racists, the difference is the culture of the people and I find it hard to believe that Clapton's always musically blues culture makes him a racist. He may have taken a tough stance on immigration, but that doesn't mean being racist.

"Get the wogs out" is both discriminating and racist.

And so outdated in 2021. You’d maybe hear it uttered by a drunken old bigot and racist, but surely many younger people might not be familiar with the phrase. Same goes for ‘coon’, which was, err, a favourite of my late grandfather eye rolling smiley

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Rocktiludrop ()
Date: June 5, 2021 11:12

This is all pissing me off, people have the right to offend, white people are constantly being attacked verbally and physically because of their colour, ( critical race theory, white privilege, karens, white trash ) they are being taught to hate themselves in schools now on the Mother of guilt trips, let's be honest here, your average black man is more racist that your average white, and arguably for good reason, plus you see so many whites standing up for blacks, not so much the other way round, i think things are moving along nicely for black people, do you think bringing all this race stuff up all the time helps, i think it's the opossite, it just winds everyone up and if anything puts race relations back to the attitudes of the 70s, everyone knows if Eric said a fraction of what he said in 1976 his career and probably life would be over.

Look Eric said what he said, he was a alcoholic, recently when asked about his love for Pattie that inspired so many songs for him, he said how can I know if I ever loved her, i was a drunk. Do you see his point, how can Eric comment or apologise for a rant as an alcoholic, he has no idea who that drunken Eric is or what he was thinking, drunks say all kinds of shit they don't remember, they probably rant at the people they think they love most all the time, i wish we could stop dissecting something the man said 45 years ago, Eric has moved on, attitudes towards black people have moved on, why can't we move on.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: StonedRambler ()
Date: June 5, 2021 11:18

What's the point of discussing this on and on and on? You will always discover that some artist you like has spoken some sh*t in the best case or in the worst case even did some violence to people, sexual assaults, murdering... whatever. Or you just find out that they're a**holes.

While all these things are terrible at some point you always have to decide if you want to keep enjoying the art, disconnected from the person behind it. (That doesn't necessarily mean you have to support the artist, you can buy all the music second hand) Or if you quit listening to the artist.

In the case of Clapton, I wasn't young enough to witness that racist thing. I only read about it years later. However I really don't support his views on the pandemic and the songs he did with Van Morrison and I don't know if I want to go to one of his concerts in the future. Still, I will continue to be a fan of his (old) music and I will keep listening to all the Albums I already have.

I am really glad the Stones don't force their political opinions on anybody, whatever they might be. Makes it easy for all the fans who just like their music and still want to go to their concerts in the future.

And I'm really glad that bv keeps politics out of this forum. I found that most of the time people just want to unload their opinion and are not willing to understand the opposite view. So at the end of this discussions people have not reached anything, everyone still has the opinion they always had.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: StonedRambler ()
Date: June 5, 2021 11:22

Quote
Rocktiludrop
white people are constantly being attacked verbally and physically because of their colour, ( critical race theory, white privilege, karens, white trash ) they are being taught to hate themselves in schools now on the Mother of guilt trips, let's be honest here, your average black man is more racist that your average white

To all the others: please don't feed the troll. Don't answer on messages like this that have only been written to provoke other people. Let him have his opinion. Nothing will change it. Trying to answer stuff like this with good arguments is just useless. I'm sure Bjornulf will take care of it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021-06-05 11:23 by StonedRambler.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: Rocktiludrop ()
Date: June 5, 2021 11:39

Quote
StonedRambler
Quote
Rocktiludrop
white people are constantly being attacked verbally and physically because of their colour, ( critical race theory, white privilege, karens, white trash ) they are being taught to hate themselves in schools now on the Mother of guilt trips, let's be honest here, your average black man is more racist that your average white

To all the others: please don't feed the troll. Don't answer on messages like this that have only been written to provoke other people. Let him have his opinion. Nothing will change it. Trying to answer stuff like this with good arguments is just useless. I'm sure Bjornulf will take care of it.

Ouch. You take one piece of my post to take it out of context and make it appear racist. I've just posted an honest thoughtful reaction to the Eric bashing.
If you think I'm a troll i am hurt by that and as a result will only comment on music in future.

I'm sorry that's your response, I'll take a break from here.

Re: OT: Eric Clapton stuff
Posted by: RisingStone ()
Date: June 5, 2021 12:49

There is Clapton in every one of us. There’s one in every crowd.

To jbwelda —
I apologize to you for the final bit of my last post (i.e. anti-Japanese insinuation). I am sorry you are so offended by that. Believe it or not, that was a failed attempt of a joke, like your bit about the Hamptons (like loog droog, I didn’t realize it was a joke, either, until I read your explanation later).

— from the “twat”

P.S;
“Clapton’s racist rant was protracted and intermittent over the course of the evening, and did not merely come in a single outburst.”

That is a paraphrase of Caryl Phillips’ recollection, provided by the writer of the article, Dan Mucguill.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-06-10 23:10 by RisingStone.

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