Crude and authentic is so much better than click tracks of Atari's Pong. No more pong songs!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2016-10-02 03:01 by Socrates1.

Quote
frenki09

Quote
Elmo Lewis
If it is truly a raw blues album, I think it will be great.

But..... here are a few things that could mess it up:

1. Clapton playing more than Keith and Ronnie.

2. Don overproducing it.

3. If it is a "return to blues" in name only ala Rod's last 10 "I'm getting back to mandolins and acoustics" albums.

Also, I'd love a couple of (bluesy) originals with the standards.

I just can't stand anything he has done (Dylan, Nelson, Black Crowes etc), and I was hoping they would get someone new for this album who could get the boys out of their comfort zone, not to do something new, but to do something that is less bombastic. Bigger Bang is the worst Stones album. Overproduced, in-your-face, very loud and full, weak songs that feel like outtakes...

There was a time when Jack White's name was quite often mentioned as a possible producer... That would have been interesting...

Unfortunately Don Was is still not past tense.

Agree on Don Was-terrible. But Clapton IMO knows the Blues about as well as anyone can; he knows when to burn and when to lay back.

Quote
Elmo Lewis

3. If it is a "return to blues" in name only ala Rod's last 10 "I'm getting back to mandolins and acoustics" albums.

what's wrong with mandoline ?

Quote
Rocky Dijon
As for Mick being the tough one to sell on taking a risk with a new producer, that's highly unlikely. Look at the facts.

An outside producer wasn't essential until CBS made it a contractual requirement. Don Was talks about Keith lecturing him his first day in the studio on why the Stones don't need a producer. Good luck convincing Virgin Records of that, Keith.

Going back to CBS days, Mick wanted Bill Laswell to produce DIRTY WORK but agreed to Steve Lillywhite (Keith's choice). Mick and Keith argued about who would produce STEEL WHEELS (Keith wanted Steve Jordan). They compromised and went back to Chris Kimsey.

Mick has taken a risk and worked with Rick Rubin and Marti Fredericksen on his solo albums. You may not like them as producers, but Mick will stretch out. Likewise, it was Mick who told Keith if they were to shelve their solo albums and do BRIDGES TO BABYLON, Keith had to agree to outside producers. Mick was critical of both Don Was and Rick Rubin preferring to evoke the past with their productions. BRIDGES was experimental.

Along with Marti Fredericksen, Mick worked with Chris Potter, Danny Saber, Lenny Kravitz, and Wyclef Jean on his last solo album. Since then Dave Stewart, Ashley Beadle, and Jimmy Iovine have produced Mick's solo sessions. Mick prefers taking chances with new producers.

So why only Don Was for the Stones for 23 years? Simple. It's always a struggle between Mick and Keith. Mick's guy won't be acccepted by Keith (ask Babyface or The Dust Brothers) and Keith's guy isn't what Mick wants (ask Steve Jordan or Rob Fraboni), so they need compromise and someone who has worked with them before is the safe solution.

Don Was has walked away saying never again, but he comes back. Does he say stuff he doesn't mean praising the material? Of course, do you want him to say "it's the best they're willing to do and you'll probably dislike it."

Does everything he produce sound the same? No, all his sessions with the Stones have unique character. You wouldn't confuse VOODOO LOUNGE, BRIDGES TO BABYLON, FOUR NEW LICKS, A BIGGER BANG, the reworked 1970s outtakes, or the two new tracks on GRR, or even the STRIPPED studio tracks for one another.

You may not love the results. Blame Jagger and Richards. Was is an employee for hire doing the best he can. They'll never have another Jimmmy Miller. They surround themselves with yes-men. Look at Rick Rubin who went through hell with Jagger and decided the result was only 80% successful. These guys are too old to be challenged by a producer. Cary Grant reached a point where he considered himself director-proof. So did Bing Crosby. The Stones are producer-proof. They know what they're doing, work around them if you're the producer.

Oh... A nice read. Very informative (as usual from ya). You really sound like you know what you are talking about. Well structured and without any extreme or personal comments on the subject matter.

Some Girls or Tattoo You proved that The Glimmer Twins don't necessarily need an outside producer. It's impossible to replicate the way Start Me Up and the guitars sound on that song. Billy Gibbons often talks about the downbeat being a mystery in Start Me Up, and the great production might have played a part in that mystery.

Going back to CBS days, Mick wanted Bill Laswell to produce DIRTY WORK but agreed to Steve Lillywhite (Keith's choice). Mick and Keith argued about who would produce STEEL WHEELS (Keith wanted Steve Jordan). They compromised and went back to Chris Kimsey.

I thought (and still think) that Steel Wheels is the last album that had a really good production/sound. Chris Kimsey was a very good choice. Steels Wheels had space. The sound wasn't tight. I think one secret to the sound of the Stones is space. Or call it looseness. And no glitter. Dirty Work sounds like it was done by Don Was (which it obviously Wasn't). Perhaps the only exception is Harlem Shuffle, which sounds pretty good. Mick and Charlie sounded different than on previous albums, and the guitar sound on DW was also a lot more 'aggressive' than usual. All of this plus the synthesizers resulted in a rather unusual sounding album, which still had good tunes, but no space. Hate me for it, but I like the songs on DW, but somehow DW sounds bombastic, which is not a compliment. Interestingly enough Talk Is Cheap, which came out not long after DW sounds perfect. PERFECT!

Mick has taken a risk and worked with Rick Rubin and Marti Fredericksen on his solo albums.

I actually like Rick Rubin. I wonder what went wrong when he worked with Crosby Stills and Nash... Wandering Spirit is so good in every possible way. Maybe it's as you said: good production can't save bad songs. But good songs make production easier.

Mick got a bit carried away around the time his solo career started, and Dancing In The Street hit number 1. I am not sure if his choice of producers is always for the sake of music. He wants to stay trendy, fresh, which is not a bad thing, but seems a bit forced and unnecessary. Bridges To Babylon is a very good example of this. I can't remember the last time I listened to it.

I am aware of the silly stubbornness of Mick land Keith. Fighting over producers or on how many songs Keith can sing on a Stones album (Bridges To Babylon). There're lots of silly or petty stories around the Stones. It was just so stupid that they (Brenda) wouldn't let Marty see the set list at the beginning in Shine A Light. What a joke! They made a fool out of Scorsese. A good example how ridiculous the Stones can get.

You may not love the results. Blame Jagger and Richards. Was is an employee for hire doing the best he can. They'll never have another Jimmmy Miller.

Jimmy Miller (or Glyn Johns) was an employee, just like Don Was.
I understand your point of view, but I still believe that Was is not the right guy for the job. And Dylan quote says why. BTW, the unimaginatively produced Under The Red Sky's better songs (Born In Time, God Knows) were leftovers from the Lanois produced Oh, Mercy! The versions on the 3CD Bootleg Series Vol. 8. shows how much difference a producer can make.
And even Miller didn't always get it right. Listen to his production of a Hungarian band's album. Miller was a big fan of the band and worked and playe with them. (Jack Bruce and Ron Wood plays on the album.) The album was never released in the UK or the USA due to poor sales of the previous album. Released remixed in 1988 in Hungary only under the title Locomotiv GT '74 USA. I don't know what 'remixed' means here, but perhaps this is why it doesn't sound like a Miller produced album.

Does everything he produce sound the same? No, all his sessions with the Stones have unique character.

I'd call that UNEVEN production, sound. For me it proves Was is not sure where to go with the Stones. I think that was the problem when he was working on Under The Red Sky. Was seemed lost... Miller always new what he wanted, and Lanois seems like another producer who is always pushing to get the sound he wants no matter how much conflict this involves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-10-01 11:52 by frenki09.

Quote
Whale
So did anybody find the interview with Don Was on the Le Figaro site?

It's here :
[www.lefigaro.fr]

<Some Girls or Tattoo You proved that The Glimmer Twins don't necessarily need an outside producer>

Without Kimsey, those albums wouldn't have had songs. He contributed with the most important production input there is: shaping and editing a bunch of 10 minute jams into great, great songs.

Quote
Koen
"Raw, crude, authentic blues"


And Clapton plays on it?

Haha that's exactly what I thought. Clapton plays what I call Las Vegas blues or guitar hero blues. Real blues is much more than just flashy guitar playing...

Quote
MonkeyMan2000

Quote
Koen
"Raw, crude, authentic blues"


And Clapton plays on it?

Haha that's exactly what I thought. Clapton plays what I call Las Vegas blues or guitar hero blues. Real blues is much more than just flashy guitar playing...

He can do both, though, if he has the right sound, that is.

Quote
MonkeyMan2000

Quote
Koen
"Raw, crude, authentic blues"


And Clapton plays on it?

Haha that's exactly what I thought. Clapton plays what I call Las Vegas blues or guitar hero blues. Real blues is much more than just flashy guitar playing...

You've obviously not listened to, and watched the accompanying video, "Sessions For Robert J".

--
Captain Corella
60 Years a Fan

Never heard of, what is it?

Quote
frenki09

Quote
Elmo Lewis
If it is truly a raw blues album, I think it will be great.

But..... here are a few things that could mess it up:

1. Clapton playing more than Keith and Ronnie.

2. Don overproducing it.

3. If it is a "return to blues" in name only ala Rod's last 10 "I'm getting back to mandolins and acoustics" albums.

Also, I'd love a couple of (bluesy) originals with the standards.

I just can't stand anything he has done (Dylan, Nelson, Black Crowes etc), and I was hoping they would get someone new for this album who could get the boys out of their comfort zone, not to do something new, but to do something that is less bombastic. Bigger Bang is the worst Stones album. Overproduced, in-your-face, very loud and full, weak songs that feel like outtakes...

There was a time when Jack White's name was quite often mentioned as a possible producer... That would have been interesting...

Unfortunately Don Was is still not past tense.

well, i don´t think that was "produced" a lot on this blues Album, also he didn´t THAT much on ABB. sure Voodoo Lounge and the Licks Stuff was him producing but also B2B is a mixed bag

Some of the posts on here are hilarious. Loving them.

Let's look at the evidence (so far):
The Stones seem not to have...
... made an album with overproduction and modern tricks
... made an album featuring trendy guest stars
... made an album which will sell to yoof or to mainstream casual "rawk" or pop fans
... made an album full of recycled pastiches of warhorses

The Stones seem to have...
... made an album of rootsy blues tunes which celebrate their musical inspiration
... made an album with minimalist old fashioned production
... recorded the album "as live" with minimal overdubs
... made an album that will sell only to hardcore fans
... had some fun.

Whisper it not too loud but could it be (as hard as some are finding it to accept) that they've actually made this album for, erm, you know, erm...us?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-10-01 15:18 by JumpinJimF.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
As for Mick being the tough one to sell on taking a risk with a new producer, that's highly unlikely. Look at the facts.

An outside producer wasn't essential until CBS made it a contractual requirement. Don Was talks about Keith lecturing him his first day in the studio on why the Stones don't need a producer. Good luck convincing Virgin Records of that, Keith.

Going back to CBS days, Mick wanted Bill Laswell to produce DIRTY WORK but agreed to Steve Lillywhite (Keith's choice). Mick and Keith argued about who would produce STEEL WHEELS (Keith wanted Steve Jordan). They compromised and went back to Chris Kimsey.

Mick has taken a risk and worked with Rick Rubin and Marti Fredericksen on his solo albums. You may not like them as producers, but Mick will stretch out. Likewise, it was Mick who told Keith if they were to shelve their solo albums and do BRIDGES TO BABYLON, Keith had to agree to outside producers. Mick was critical of both Don Was and Rick Rubin preferring to evoke the past with their productions. BRIDGES was experimental.

Along with Marti Fredericksen, Mick worked with Chris Potter, Danny Saber, Lenny Kravitz, and Wyclef Jean on his last solo album. Since then Dave Stewart, Ashley Beadle, and Jimmy Iovine have produced Mick's solo sessions. Mick prefers taking chances with new producers.

So why only Don Was for the Stones for 23 years? Simple. It's always a struggle between Mick and Keith. Mick's guy won't be acccepted by Keith (ask Babyface or The Dust Brothers) and Keith's guy isn't what Mick wants (ask Steve Jordan or Rob Fraboni), so they need compromise and someone who has worked with them before is the safe solution.

Don Was has walked away saying never again, but he comes back. Does he say stuff he doesn't mean praising the material? Of course, do you want him to say "it's the best they're willing to do and you'll probably dislike it."

Does everything he produce sound the same? No, all his sessions with the Stones have unique character. You wouldn't confuse VOODOO LOUNGE, BRIDGES TO BABYLON, FOUR NEW LICKS, A BIGGER BANG, the reworked 1970s outtakes, or the two new tracks on GRR, or even the STRIPPED studio tracks for one another.

You may not love the results. Blame Jagger and Richards. Was is an employee for hire doing the best he can. They'll never have another Jimmmy Miller. They surround themselves with yes-men. Look at Rick Rubin who went through hell with Jagger and decided the result was only 80% successful. These guys are too old to be challenged by a producer. Cary Grant reached a point where he considered himself director-proof. So did Bing Crosby. The Stones are producer-proof. They know what they're doing, work around them if you're the producer.

Hi Rocky, always love your comments, and usually agree with them. But I am of a different mind here. I think DW is detrimental to a fine album. Of all the albums you listed, where he has some sort of producer credit, it is really only Voodoo that can be taken as his production. And IMO it is a failure as far as producing goes. Sure, Jagger has worked with new producers; new for him. But only once did he really take a chance; and it is telling that it resulted in his best solo album. (Rick Rubin). He also swore not to work with him again. And many of these names are lukewarm; barely more than a bad collaboration. Dave Stewart, Wyclef, Lenny Kravitz - it;s grim. Iovine used to be a fine, fine producer. He got eaten by the American Idol monster.
Yes, producer for the Stones in the 2000's is a tough nut; almost a paradox. Were Jimmy Miller to come along today, chances are they would barely consider him. I do believe the Stones would benefit from a strong producer; Rubin or Fraboni. I don't think someone like Jack White or Dan Auerbach can be considered; they are just too young.
But I think who stands a chance of being accepted by both twins, and who could really make an impact is Danger Mouse.
Maybe John Leckie, who did the early Radiohead discs. But I sense not enough R&B influence in his CV to please Keith.
So, I believe the Stones should go with an outside producer. Don Was is equal to self producing; which is equal to no challenge. Need someone with cojones.

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000

Quote
Rocky Dijon
As for Mick being the tough one to sell on taking a risk with a new producer, that's highly unlikely. Look at the facts.

An outside producer wasn't essential until CBS made it a contractual requirement. Don Was talks about Keith lecturing him his first day in the studio on why the Stones don't need a producer. Good luck convincing Virgin Records of that, Keith.

Going back to CBS days, Mick wanted Bill Laswell to produce DIRTY WORK but agreed to Steve Lillywhite (Keith's choice). Mick and Keith argued about who would produce STEEL WHEELS (Keith wanted Steve Jordan). They compromised and went back to Chris Kimsey.

Mick has taken a risk and worked with Rick Rubin and Marti Fredericksen on his solo albums. You may not like them as producers, but Mick will stretch out. Likewise, it was Mick who told Keith if they were to shelve their solo albums and do BRIDGES TO BABYLON, Keith had to agree to outside producers. Mick was critical of both Don Was and Rick Rubin preferring to evoke the past with their productions. BRIDGES was experimental.

Along with Marti Fredericksen, Mick worked with Chris Potter, Danny Saber, Lenny Kravitz, and Wyclef Jean on his last solo album. Since then Dave Stewart, Ashley Beadle, and Jimmy Iovine have produced Mick's solo sessions. Mick prefers taking chances with new producers.

So why only Don Was for the Stones for 23 years? Simple. It's always a struggle between Mick and Keith. Mick's guy won't be acccepted by Keith (ask Babyface or The Dust Brothers) and Keith's guy isn't what Mick wants (ask Steve Jordan or Rob Fraboni), so they need compromise and someone who has worked with them before is the safe solution.

Don Was has walked away saying never again, but he comes back. Does he say stuff he doesn't mean praising the material? Of course, do you want him to say "it's the best they're willing to do and you'll probably dislike it."

Does everything he produce sound the same? No, all his sessions with the Stones have unique character. You wouldn't confuse VOODOO LOUNGE, BRIDGES TO BABYLON, FOUR NEW LICKS, A BIGGER BANG, the reworked 1970s outtakes, or the two new tracks on GRR, or even the STRIPPED studio tracks for one another.

You may not love the results. Blame Jagger and Richards. Was is an employee for hire doing the best he can. They'll never have another Jimmmy Miller. They surround themselves with yes-men. Look at Rick Rubin who went through hell with Jagger and decided the result was only 80% successful. These guys are too old to be challenged by a producer. Cary Grant reached a point where he considered himself director-proof. So did Bing Crosby. The Stones are producer-proof. They know what they're doing, work around them if you're the producer.

Hi Rocky, always love your comments, and usually agree with them. But I am of a different mind here. I think DW is detrimental to a fine album. Of all the albums you listed, where he has some sort of producer credit, it is really only Voodoo that can be taken as his production. And IMO it is a failure as far as producing goes. Sure, Jagger has worked with new producers; new for him. But only once did he really take a chance; and it is telling that it resulted in his best solo album. (Rick Rubin). He also swore not to work with him again. And many of these names are lukewarm; barely more than a bad collaboration. Dave Stewart, Wyclef, Lenny Kravitz - it;s grim. Iovine used to be a fine, fine producer. He got eaten by the American Idol monster.
Yes, producer for the Stones in the 2000's is a tough nut; almost a paradox. Were Jimmy Miller to come along today, chances are they would barely consider him. I do believe the Stones would benefit from a strong producer; Rubin or Fraboni. I don't think someone like Jack White or Dan Auerbach can be considered; they are just too young.
But I think who stands a chance of being accepted by both twins, and who could really make an impact is Danger Mouse.
Maybe John Leckie, who did the early Radiohead discs. But I sense not enough R&B influence in his CV to please Keith.
So, I believe the Stones should go with an outside producer. Don Was is equal to self producing; which is equal to no challenge. Need someone with cojones.

Danger Mouse. Dan Auerbach

Quote
MKjan
I think it should have been MT instead of EC on the forthcoming record.

MT wasn't recording a new LP across the way.

Quote
HMS
Btw, I think the Stones had no plans for another guitarist participating, it just happened that EC was recording his own album at the same studio at the same time. So he just sat in for one or two tracks.

Why do you need to plagiarize like that?

Quote
Koen
"Raw, crude, authentic blues"


And Clapton plays on it?

And what's different from him playing on it than Keith? Millionaires are millionaires. Millionaire blues.

I'm pretty sure Don Was only had a major production say in Voodoo Lounge (and maybe Exile bonus); he wanted the Stones to sound like yesteryear. The rest of the albums were mainly Jagger on final production decisions.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-10-01 19:28 by schillid.

Quote
GasLightStreet

Quote
Koen
"Raw, crude, authentic blues"


And Clapton plays on it?

And what's different from him playing on it than Keith? Millionaires are millionaires. Millionaire blues.

Yeah, thats exactly why poor, distraught Mick Taylor should wail on it, he's an authentic bluesman!

Also, you're right about him not recording an album. The guy should have done about three authentic blues albums by now with guest appearances by Slash, etc.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
A guess (educated or otherwise) would be that releasing the blues album six months before an album of new material is a marketing decision. That way you can spin the new material as the product of the band returning to their roots and reconnecting to their past. That works better than releasing a pricey 2-disc set that won't sell huge numbers anyway or offering the blues disc as an iTunes exclusive and run the risk of people saying they prefer the old blues songs to an album of new material. This marketing plan lets both releases stand alone and support one another independently as part of the prepackaged story "we got back together for the 50th anniversary and after playing live for four years, went back to our roots did this record and then look at what amazing new material resulted once the band was on fire." [Never mind the fact that most of the songs will have been written and demoed with Matt Clifford six years before they were released and that the rest of the band just added overdubs. And in fairness, yes, Keith did some demos with Steve Jordan earlier this year as well.]

What amazes me is they cut this LP in 3 days and here it is how many months later?

If they had truly wanted to make an impact they should've released it the day after they finished it. No hype, just DOINK - Stones blues album.

Marketing indeed. Halloween crap in stores in AUGUST. Pumpkins on porches by early SEPTEMBER. Ocktoberfest beer out in early SEPTEMBER.

And an 11 track Stones blues LP just in time for...

Quote
Stoneage
"Authentic"? How authentic can a bunch of billionaire limeys singing the blues be? Have they even ever seen a cotton field?

Restaurants do that. In Mississippi, "Authentic Mexican food".

It can't be. It's not in Mexico.


You can take what Ronnie says to mean it sounds really fukcing good, which he could've simply said, or it's the usual hyperbole that he wheezes out. Perhaps it's still some sort of recognition that the Stones are not a blues band, just a rock'n'roll band that plays blues.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
...offering the blues disc as an iTunes exclusive and run the risk of people saying they prefer the old blues songs to an album of new material.

There seems to be some kind of undercurrent that the Stones are scared of releasing things. They've been releasing things since 1986 that are, to cover the bases, the worst possible thing they could release to somewhat questionable yet they didn't even think once about not releasing them!

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Mick has taken a risk and worked with Rick Rubin and Marti Fredericksen on his solo albums. You may not like them as producers, but Mick will stretch out.

Look at Rick Rubin who went through hell with Jagger and decided the result was only 80% successful.

The 20% that's not successful is Mother Of A Man, the title track, Angel In My Heart and Handsome Molly.

Quote
frenki09
Mick got a bit carried away around the time his solo career started, and Dancing In The Street hit number 1. I am not sure if his choice of producers is always for the sake of music. He wants to stay trendy, fresh, which is not a bad thing, but seems a bit forced and unnecessary. Bridges To Babylon is a very good example of this. I can't remember the last time I listened to it.

You really only need to listen to Keith's 3 songs, although Flip The Switch and Lowdown are pretty damn good.

Quote
frenki09
Shine A Light. What a joke! They made a fool out of Scorsese. A good example how ridiculous the Stones can get.

A slight tweaking... It is ridiculous. Horrible live album, shit movie. Vibrant and fresh it wasn't, it had no new songs in it and the old ones they did were horrible.

However, Mary didn't need help to look like a fool: he gladly participated and ramped up the idiocy.

My theory is that they have always needed a manager more than a producer.
For all the success and money they've made, they've missed a lot of opportunities and made some mistakes that could have been avoided if they had a trusted manager they both agreed to follow.
Owing to their personalities and rivalry that was probably impossible.
On the other hand, they sure did it their way.

Quote
TravelinMan

Quote
GasLightStreet

Quote
Koen
"Raw, crude, authentic blues"


And Clapton plays on it?

And what's different from him playing on it than Keith? Millionaires are millionaires. Millionaire blues.

Yeah, thats exactly why poor, distraught Mick Taylor should wail on it, he's an authentic bluesman!

Also, you're right about him not recording an album. The guy should have done about three authentic blues albums by now with guest appearances by Slash, etc.

When I first heard I'm Not Signifying I was floored by Mick's slide guitar on that. Just incredible. He certainly should do a blues LP.

Now Mick Taylor is a guy who really needed a manager. A guitarist who can play like he does and doesn't need the spotlight should have had a long and fruitful career playing with all sorts of different bands and artists.

I think that Dan Auerbach did a great job on Dr John's Locked Down last year.

video: [www.youtube.com]