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Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: blivet ()
Date: June 30, 2020 17:43

Quote
georgie48
Braun indeed said that Aldrige’s image inspired him. Hence the second white line in the tongue. He also incorrectly claimed that Pasche was also inspired by that image, but later on admitted his wrongbeing there. Walter Velez and Tony DiMiceli werd his supporting technical staff helping him to deliver the most famous image.

Do you know where this information might be available? It's definitely the biggest missing link in the story of how the logo came to be.

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: June 30, 2020 20:21

Quote
blivet
Quote
georgie48
Braun indeed said that Aldrige’s image inspired him. Hence the second white line in the tongue. He also incorrectly claimed that Pasche was also inspired by that image, but later on admitted his wrongbeing there. Walter Velez and Tony DiMiceli werd his supporting technical staff helping him to deliver the most famous image.

Do you know where this information might be available? It's definitely the biggest missing link in the story of how the logo came to be.

Craig Braun says the Pasche design is "not the official version" yet... in Rolling Stones terms, it is.

This site does an interesting job of investigating and points out things nicely... until the comparison of Aldridge and Pasche's designs - it's not the Pasche logo but says it is.

[www.rushordertees.com]

It also points out that the 50th anniversary logo was not altered in any way even though it was "redesigned".

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: TooTough ()
Date: June 30, 2020 20:26




Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: TooTough ()
Date: June 30, 2020 20:29




Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: June 30, 2020 21:02

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
blivet
Quote
georgie48
Braun indeed said that Aldrige’s image inspired him. Hence the second white line in the tongue. He also incorrectly claimed that Pasche was also inspired by that image, but later on admitted his wrongbeing there. Walter Velez and Tony DiMiceli werd his supporting technical staff helping him to deliver the most famous image.

Do you know where this information might be available? It's definitely the biggest missing link in the story of how the logo came to be.

Craig Braun says the Pasche design is "not the official version" yet... in Rolling Stones terms, it is.

This site does an interesting job of investigating and points out things nicely... until the comparison of Aldridge and Pasche's designs - it's not the Pasche logo but says it is.

[www.rushordertees.com]

It also points out that the 50th anniversary logo was not altered in any way even though it was "redesigned".

I have had an extensive correspondence with Braun, but no green light to release it. However, partly you can find an interview by the New York Times with Craig Braun, where he tells part of the story.
By the way, TooTough named a logo "Cefalu", but officially it's also a Braun production in which Cefalu had a similar role like Velez and DiMiceli had in the design of the famous (USA) logo.

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: July 1, 2020 17:30

Quote
georgie48
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
blivet
Quote
georgie48
Braun indeed said that Aldrige’s image inspired him. Hence the second white line in the tongue. He also incorrectly claimed that Pasche was also inspired by that image, but later on admitted his wrongbeing there. Walter Velez and Tony DiMiceli werd his supporting technical staff helping him to deliver the most famous image.

Do you know where this information might be available? It's definitely the biggest missing link in the story of how the logo came to be.

Craig Braun says the Pasche design is "not the official version" yet... in Rolling Stones terms, it is.

This site does an interesting job of investigating and points out things nicely... until the comparison of Aldridge and Pasche's designs - it's not the Pasche logo but says it is.

[www.rushordertees.com]

It also points out that the 50th anniversary logo was not altered in any way even though it was "redesigned".

I have had an extensive correspondence with Braun, but no green light to release it. However, partly you can find an interview by the New York Times with Craig Braun, where he tells part of the story.
By the way, TooTough named a logo "Cefalu", but officially it's also a Braun production in which Cefalu had a similar role like Velez and DiMiceli had in the design of the famous (USA) logo.

I read the article GLS. It's "admirable" to read how Cefalu cleverly used another ignorant reporter to "make his case". Luckily the reporter leaves it all open in a way. Apart from the 1970/1071 dispute, C's statements concerning Marshall Chess (with whom I also communicated on the issue) are totally incorrect. The meeting that Chess had with the Stones concerning the choices of which logo version to choose took place in Amsterdam in October 1970. In other words, way before C came in the picture.
The things C said about his conversations with Braun are "correct" in terms of having been given compliments (he "forgets" to mention the presence of Chess on the initial occasion, though). Braun, however, was hoping to score "an ultimate version" for the logo, hence those (I would call them slimy) compliments. Although C admitted at the very end in the previous thread here on IORR about the initial conversation, where Braun presented him a sketch of what he meant for C to try and work out, in your addressed interview he doesn't. And so he found another route to promote his incredible fantastic ego. The most incredible persistent self-promoting individual I ever ran into.
Oh yes, and "the Stones hated Marshall Chess". That's another amazing statement. Just go over interviews with Mick and Keith about Marshall, the tone setting is completely the opposite of what C says.
The joke continues ... but facts remain facts.p

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: July 1, 2020 19:38

Quote
georgie48
Quote
georgie48
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
blivet
Quote
georgie48
Braun indeed said that Aldrige’s image inspired him. Hence the second white line in the tongue. He also incorrectly claimed that Pasche was also inspired by that image, but later on admitted his wrongbeing there. Walter Velez and Tony DiMiceli werd his supporting technical staff helping him to deliver the most famous image.

Do you know where this information might be available? It's definitely the biggest missing link in the story of how the logo came to be.

Craig Braun says the Pasche design is "not the official version" yet... in Rolling Stones terms, it is.

This site does an interesting job of investigating and points out things nicely... until the comparison of Aldridge and Pasche's designs - it's not the Pasche logo but says it is.

[www.rushordertees.com]

It also points out that the 50th anniversary logo was not altered in any way even though it was "redesigned".

I have had an extensive correspondence with Braun, but no green light to release it. However, partly you can find an interview by the New York Times with Craig Braun, where he tells part of the story.
By the way, TooTough named a logo "Cefalu", but officially it's also a Braun production in which Cefalu had a similar role like Velez and DiMiceli had in the design of the famous (USA) logo.

I read the article GLS. It's "admirable" to read how Cefalu cleverly used another ignorant reporter to "make his case". Luckily the reporter leaves it all open in a way. Apart from the 1970/1071 dispute, C's statements concerning Marshall Chess (with whom I also communicated on the issue) are totally incorrect. The meeting that Chess had with the Stones concerning the choices of which logo version to choose took place in Amsterdam in October 1970. In other words, way before C came in the picture.
The things C said about his conversations with Braun are "correct" in terms of having been given compliments (he "forgets" to mention the presence of Chess on the initial occasion, though). Braun, however, was hoping to score "an ultimate version" for the logo, hence those (I would call them slimy) compliments. Although C admitted at the very end in the previous thread here on IORR about the initial conversation, where Braun presented him a sketch of what he meant for C to try and work out, in your addressed interview he doesn't. And so he found another route to promote his incredible fantastic ego. The most incredible persistent self-promoting individual I ever ran into.
Oh yes, and "the Stones hated Marshall Chess". That's another amazing statement. Just go over interviews with Mick and Keith about Marshall, the tone setting is completely the opposite of what C says.
The joke continues ... but facts remain facts.p

Oh indeed - I laughed my ass off through that article, which I found overall amusing considering the tally of everything out there.

Cefalu is a self-glazing loonatic with his very own alternative facts. There is zero reason to believe anything he has said - and his logo is butt ugly.

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: July 1, 2020 20:29

you guys always like to debate a lot about Pasche and Cefalu but you still act as if this

was actually that

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: July 1, 2020 20:32

Quote
Nikkei
you guys always like to debate a lot about Pasche and Cefalu but you still act as if this

was actually that


Explain how what you said and showed is relevant to ANYTHING about the original logo when all you showed were two versions of the Braun logo.

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: July 1, 2020 20:33

"the two versions of the Braun Logo" now we are getting somewhere

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: July 1, 2020 20:40

Quote
Nikkei
"the two versions of the Braun Logo" now we are getting somewhere

I said relevant. That's not relevant.

EXPLAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: July 1, 2020 20:46

I don't know anything that you don't... but my question wouldn't be which one is "original" but what came first

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: July 1, 2020 20:49

Quote
Nikkei
I don't know anything that you don't... but my question wouldn't be which one is "original" but what came first

In regard to what is known?

Pasche. His was first and, obviously, the original. UK sleeve of STICKY FINGERS, EMOTIONAL RESCUE...

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: Nikkei ()
Date: July 1, 2020 20:54

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Nikkei
I don't know anything that you don't... but my question wouldn't be which one is "original" but what came first

In regard to what is known?

Pasche. His was first and, obviously, the original. UK sleeve of STICKY FINGERS, EMOTIONAL RESCUE...

It's one way to look at it, I'll also admit that I like the Pasche one best. But I don't consider any of the origin stories to be fully true, which I am sure is what Mick was aiming at.

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: July 1, 2020 21:27

Quote
Nikkei
"the two versions of the Braun Logo" now we are getting somewhere

Did Braun or Cefalu create the logos? Yes. Ernie worked for Craig, and as the owner of the agency, he gets to take the credit. Who put pen to paper? Cefalu. As the artist, he gets to also take the credit because Cefalu wasn't his employee, he was a freelancer.

It was actually Marshall Chess who wanted this all obscured. He had already seen Pasche's tongue, and had Braun "Reverse Engineer" it. They knew exactly what they were doing at the time. The same way that Compaq computers came up with an exact clone of the IBM PC without being guilty of copying.

Pasche's was meant for the album, Braun/Cefalu's was meant for merchandising, which is exactly how they were used. Pasche's version became more popular, even Cefalu himself states, "I like Pasche's version more than my own."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-07-01 21:29 by roller99.

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: July 1, 2020 21:58

Quote
roller99
Quote
Nikkei
"the two versions of the Braun Logo" now we are getting somewhere

Did Braun or Cefalu create the logos? Yes. Ernie worked for Craig, and as the owner of the agency, he gets to take the credit. Who put pen to paper? Cefalu. As the artist, he gets to also take the credit because Cefalu wasn't his employee, he was a freelancer.

It was actually Marshall Chess who wanted this all obscured. He had already seen Pasche's tongue, and had Braun "Reverse Engineer" it. They knew exactly what they were doing at the time. The same way that Compaq computers came up with an exact clone of the IBM PC without being guilty of copying.

Pasche's was meant for the album, Braun/Cefalu's was meant for merchandising, which is exactly how they were used. Pasche's version became more popular, even Cefalu himself states, "I like Pasche's version more than my own."

All published reports put Cefalu's design(s) way after the fact and Braun's version, the most (commonly) used logo on a majority of albums and merch, is a reconfigured Pasche (barely used - UK sleeve of SF, original issue of ER, UK edition of SITS and Mick's blue logoed shirt in 2018 or whenever)... obviously influenced by Aldridge's tongue.

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: July 1, 2020 23:36

Quote
roller99
Quote
Nikkei
"the two versions of the Braun Logo" now we are getting somewhere

Did Braun or Cefalu create the logos? Yes. Ernie worked for Craig, and as the owner of the agency, he gets to take the credit. Who put pen to paper? Cefalu. As the artist, he gets to also take the credit because Cefalu wasn't his employee, he was a freelancer.

It was actually Marshall Chess who wanted this all obscured. He had already seen Pasche's tongue, and had Braun "Reverse Engineer" it. They knew exactly what they were doing at the time. The same way that Compaq computers came up with an exact clone of the IBM PC without being guilty of copying.

Pasche's was meant for the album, Braun/Cefalu's was meant for merchandising, which is exactly how they were used. Pasche's version became more popular, even Cefalu himself states, "I like Pasche's version more than my own."

You're right roller99 on the use of the two. One for the records (and the band was always hanging in between the use of either the "USA logo" and the original first one from Pasche) and one for the merchandise. But it needs to be said that the merchandise version on which Cefalu worked was chosen by Braun before others, because it suited best to his ideas of how to make particular kinds of merchandise, like metal/glaced ones. The merchandising was given to Braun for a maximum of three years (I saw the original contract myself), so for the Stones to find out how to tackle the issue of future merchandise themselves.
By the way, I finally mentioned the names of the two men who had worked out the USA version logo with Braun well before Ernie joined Braun's company. They never ever claimed that they were the ones who designed the first Stones logo. I'm sure they knew very well that the whole idea for the logo was born in the U.K.
Actually, Pasches logo was faxed to Chess Records (black and white) in 1970 before Marshall Chess met again with Braun and so also before the two spoke to Ernie a couple of months later in 1971.

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: exilestones ()
Date: July 3, 2020 04:21


Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: exilestones ()
Date: July 3, 2020 04:23


Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: KevinM ()
Date: July 3, 2020 04:29

Quote
TooTough

Thanks.

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: CaptainCorella ()
Date: July 3, 2020 05:08

Quote
georgie48

Actually, Pasches logo was faxed to Chess Records (black and white) in 1970 before Marshall Chess met again with Braun and so also before the two spoke to Ernie a couple of months later in 1971.

Alan Aldridge's book was published in 1969.

John Pasche was a (young) graphics student in the UK and, frankly, it's INCONCEIVABLE that he didn't see Aldridge's book at the time.

The difference between Aldridge's work and Pasche's is far less than the differences between the many other (wonderful) examples of The Rolling Stones' Tongue in this thread.

--
Captain Corella
50+ Years a Fan

Re: Rolling Stones Tongues
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: July 3, 2020 09:40

In the Beatles vs Stones link I mentioned the fact that Alan Aldridge had worked on a poster for The Rolling Stones Rock and Roll Circus project in 1968. It shows a tiger (in guitar shape) on a plateau. The poster was never used by the Stones then.
It's is tempting to think that John Pasche saw Aldridge's Day Tripper image, but when I was asked many years ago to figure out what happened in the USA an ran into that issue too (apart from all those people who claimed to have been the "first" to design the logo), I started collecting mounth/tongue images that had been around. You're not gonna believe how many I found (hundreds!) and there were images from even well before the 1960s that could have been used as rawmodel for both Aldridge's Day Tripper image as well as for John Pasche's image. Pasche actually designed a set of images and the one for the Sticky Fingers album inlay was eventually chosen late 1970 and faxed to the USA.
The Stones were in a hurry to release SF because they were afraid of it being bootlegged before release (bootlegging had become THE thing in the late 60s). So that's why the fax was used instead of the time consuming postal service.
When Braun and his people Velez and DiMiceli started working on what became "the famous one", Braun happened to see Aldridge's DT image and was inspired, hence the second white line on the tongue.
I also do have a Velez made image of the logo with the faces of the five Stones and his signature. Too bad to read all those Cefalu attempts to promote himself as the logo "god" .....

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