There are no holy books. I'm not blaming the people. Islam is simply backwards religion. It doesn't contribute to a modern, secular society. I'm not the only one with these beliefs as I mentioned earlier.
Ask Richard Dawkins for example. What do you say about a religion that condemns you to death for leaving it?

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Stoneage
There are no holy books. I'm not blaming the people. Islam is simply backwards religion. It doesn't contribute to a modern, secular society. I'm not the only one with these beliefs as I mentioned earlier.
Ask Richard Dawkins for example. What do you say about a religion that condemns you to death for leaving it?

I say: "It's not supposed to be discussed here at IORR". This isn't the time or place for this discussion. No need getting yourself banned.

Peace,
Mr DJA

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mr_dja

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Stoneage
There are no holy books. I'm not blaming the people. Islam is simply backwards religion. It doesn't contribute to a modern, secular society. I'm not the only one with these beliefs as I mentioned earlier.
Ask Richard Dawkins for example. What do you say about a religion that condemns you to death for leaving it?

I say: "It's not supposed to be discussed here at IORR". This isn't the time or place for this discussion. No need getting yourself banned.

Peace,
Mr DJA

I say: "This is the time for this discussion, but not the place. Good evening".

Peace.

I agree. I'll leave it there.

I stand corrected... RipThisBone said it better than I did.

Peace,
Mr DJA

Its hard to wipe all these cockroaches out of our society, but hopefully progress will be made in the coming months......

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Stoneage
I agree. I'll leave it there.

I think that is a very wise decision.

wow-i'm speechless. the video of the children crying made my stomach sick,i hope america makes the right choice this fall,we can't sit and watch this crap anymore.

it's our job,everyone knows it's our job and yet we sit on our hands-

ROCKMAN

Europe has a massive problem on it's hand. Good luck to you all!

its america and its foreign policy that contributes largely to this crap, and britain and others follow.

western governments go into the middle east, and set about changing a countries regime, invading countries and stealing its oil, who gave isis the power in the first place, who gave iraq its weapons in the 80,s only to have to fight against it in the gulf was in the 90,s,who overthrew the iranian government in 1979, who gave pol pots murderous regime the power by flattening its enemy in cambodia during the vietnam war, yes it was america.

and sadly no one seems to learn the obvious historical lesson. if you change a countries regime, and install a replacement, you give that new regime more power than they otherwise would have.

no use blaming islam or muslims all the time, we never had this crap on this scale 30 years ago.

western goverments are to blame, western politicians dont care about the ordinary folk who get killed, and dont care how much security measures get used to combat terrorism. western governments like a few terorists, they create them, gives them something to stir up the ordinary innocent folk, and western governments will darn sure make sure security measues are more than adequate to save themselves.

maybe if all westeners campaigned against mostly american foreign policy and lobbied our governments not to follow suit, we wouldnt need to interfere in middle eastern politics for a change.

theoretically in a democracy we all get the government we deserve eventually, so who said we live in a democracy, cos innocent folk dont deserve to die.

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Stoneage
There is a distinction between islam and muslims, Treacles. In muslim countries you'll have no choice whether you want to become a muslim or not. And you can't leave your religion. And what good does islam bring to modern societies in the west or even their own countries? To combat the backward religion of islam isn't the same as to combat muslims. It's the religion that is bad, not the vast majority of the people.

i really don't have a good understanding of islam, so i can't comment on your viewpoint, however all i'm saying is what you have is 1.5 billion followers of the religion. jumping up and down and calling their religion evil doesn't serve a very good purpose from my lazy-boy recliner.

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buttons67
its america and its foreign policy that contributes largely to this crap, and britain and others follow.

western governments go into the middle east, and set about changing a countries regime, invading countries and stealing its oil, who gave isis the power in the first place, who gave iraq its weapons in the 80,s only to have to fight against it in the gulf was in the 90,s,who overthrew the iranian government in 1979, who gave pol pots murderous regime the power by flattening its enemy in cambodia during the vietnam war, yes it was america.

and sadly no one seems to learn the obvious historical lesson. if you change a countries regime, and install a replacement, you give that new regime more power than they otherwise would have.

no use blaming islam or muslims all the time, we never had this crap on this scale 30 years ago.

western goverments are to blame, western politicians dont care about the ordinary folk who get killed, and dont care how much security measures get used to combat terrorism. western governments like a few terorists, they create them, gives them something to stir up the ordinary innocent folk, and western governments will darn sure make sure security measues are more than adequate to save themselves.

maybe if all westeners campaigned against mostly american foreign policy and lobbied our governments not to follow suit, we wouldnt need to interfere in middle eastern politics for a change.

theoretically in a democracy we all get the government we deserve eventually, so who said we live in a democracy, cos innocent folk dont deserve to die.

If only more people would realize this, we still might have a chance to avoid more damage.

Hi,
I would say my meaning but I'm afraid for take over the quote by others which I can't put away.
Tioms, Belgium.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2016-03-23 12:00 by tioms.

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DandelionPowderman

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Stoneage

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DandelionPowderman
You can blame their interpretation of islam, shared by a microscopical part of the Muslims.

I wish it was easy as that, Dandy. But it isn't. Islam isn't a reformed religion like christianity. It still has some very harmful elements in it. I would for one blame islam. I'm no the only one.
Even Napoleon Bonaparte and Churchill was very critical about islam. And people like Richard Dawkins today. And rightfully so. I would even say that today it's even more important to combat the evil of islam.

That's just ignorant, imo.

There are also huge, peaceful Islamic countries (where other religions are allowed as well). Will you blame those countries and their interpretation of the holy book religion as well?

It's a bit like saying all americans are rooting for the Donald. Of course they aren't.

You should look up Brigitte Gabriel on YouTube and elsewhere. If you disagree with her by all means look up people that argue against what she says. Absorb both sides of the debate from her frame of reference.

She says intelligence estimates are that between 15% and 25% of the Muslim population are active or give moral or financial support to radical Islamic fundamentalists. That's hundreds of millions of people that believe that it is ethically and morally right to chop off your hands if you are caught stealing.

My feeling is that your comments are simplistic and naive and politically correct. It's not the majority of good decent Islamic people that we have to worry about, it's the millions that are radicalized or that are sympathetic to radical ideas. They are the ones that can effect change in a bad way.

I agree that the opinion DandelionPowderMan is politically correct. So, that's a good thing, right? I wish more politicians were correct, instead of basing themselves on falsehoods, simplicifications or clear lies.

I don't know where your numbers come from, but if you think about it, you can only come to the same conclusion as anybody else: it's impossible that 15% of the entire world moslim population, in Europe, in Indonesia, in north-african countries are supporting islamic fundamentalists. It's not only logically and technically impossible, but also in contrast with all facts: most victims of islam-fundamentalism are moslims themselves.

If you are interested in more politically correct statements:
Most money to islamic fundamentalists come from Saudi-Arabia. Fact. Now, investigate where most money in Saudi-Arabia comes from.
The rise in power of ISIS is a direct result from the war in Iraq. Fact. The war in Iraq was "justifified" by the supposed arms of distruction which - as it turned out - did not exist (as all intelligence experts already knew). Fact.
ISIS has been additionally financed (apart from aforementioned Saudi-Arabia), by the US to fight against Assad in Syria. Fact. (Same is true of Osama Bin Laden, by the way, who was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets)
In the past couple of months, Spain, the UK, the US and a number of other western countries have decided to sell even more arms to.... Saudi-Arabia. Fact.
Most moslims (like most non-moslims) don't have the money, nor the influence, nor the power, nor the contacts to not even sell a bag of beans to Saudi-Arabia. Nor to Isis. Fact.
Most terrorists on European soil that have been used by islamic fundamentalists were non-moslims most of their lives. They lived socially marginalized lives, often with a criminal past, not very bright (and obviously of dubious character) which were easy targets for islam-fundamentalist to convert to their so-called "jihad". Fact.

I would think it would be "correct" to draw some conclusions from these facts to stop this nightmare.

You can have your world view and the West and the US is always the bad guy. After all, the people in the United States are supposed to have a crystal ball and know which action to take because they are supposed to know exactly what is supposed to happen five years, 10 years, and even 15 years into the future. Those damn Americans, they were supposed to know what will take place in the future all the time and if they get it wrong then I will whine and stomp my feet and blame them for everything.

The numbers come from what Brigitte Gabriel stated, and I think she said that they are an average of intelligence estimates from several countries. I can't cite figures for you or give you sources, but there are polls taken that sample opinions in the Muslim population in many Muslim countries and the results of those polls tell you what the population is thinking on various topical matters pertaining to Islam and society in general, and the results are not nice at all. Just look at the case of honour killings and the percentage of Muslim people that support the idea.

We have to get past the "cry baby" attitude where you blame the United States for all of the problems in the world. The US is not perfect, but many places in the world are much much less perfect than the United States. Look at Germany and Japan, they were not cry babies after they lost and are now modern countries with an excellent standard of living. Instead of moaning and complaining, a lot of places in the world should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and create their own civil societies.

It's a really radical and politically incorrect thought: Stop crying, stop complaining that the US crystal ball didn't work, develop your own civil society instead of blowing yourselves and others up all the time. Develop a functioning economy and promote happiness and well being in your own country. Fix your own problems and stop crying about the past.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-03-23 13:52 by MileHigh.

It's hard to make sense of the world...and if you look at history, it's always been thus.

Much love to the people of Belguim and to all those affected by this insanity.

For my Belgian friends:

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Stoneage
There are no holy books. I'm not blaming the people. Islam is simply backwards religion. It doesn't contribute to a modern, secular society. I'm not the only one with these beliefs as I mentioned earlier.
Ask Richard Dawkins for example. What do you say about a religion that condemns you to death for leaving it?

Correct. Also, see what's happening in Sweden? Women are told not to go out at night. The Swedes are not the ones raping them

So sad. Some @#$%& up people in this world. Innocent people dying. Too bad countries couldn't settle things with the politicians fighting gladiator style.

I really enjoyed the time i spent in Brussels, during the 14 on fire tour. Prayers will go out to the city and her people.

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buttons67
its america and its foreign policy that contributes largely to this crap, and britain and others follow.

western governments go into the middle east, and set about changing a countries regime, invading countries and stealing its oil, who gave isis the power in the first place, who gave iraq its weapons in the 80,s only to have to fight against it in the gulf was in the 90,s,who overthrew the iranian government in 1979, who gave pol pots murderous regime the power by flattening its enemy in cambodia during the vietnam war, yes it was america.

and sadly no one seems to learn the obvious historical lesson. if you change a countries regime, and install a replacement, you give that new regime more power than they otherwise would have.

no use blaming islam or muslims all the time, we never had this crap on this scale 30 years ago.

western goverments are to blame, western politicians dont care about the ordinary folk who get killed, and dont care how much security measures get used to combat terrorism. western governments like a few terorists, they create them, gives them something to stir up the ordinary innocent folk, and western governments will darn sure make sure security measues are more than adequate to save themselves.

maybe if all westeners campaigned against mostly american foreign policy and lobbied our governments not to follow suit, we wouldnt need to interfere in middle eastern politics for a change.

theoretically in a democracy we all get the government we deserve eventually, so who said we live in a democracy, cos innocent folk dont deserve to die.

I stopped reading as soon as I saw the claim that the West steals their oil. You already know what you are dealing with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-03-23 15:54 by stanlove.

@MileHigh. People are supposed to learn from their mistakes. That is why, as you so rightly say, Germany did well after the second world war: because the allies chose not to make the same mistakes as they did after the first world war.

Let's hope the western countries are wise enough now to change their politics in the middle east, instead of blaming everything on refugees, muslims or in trusting ultraright politics. There's a reason for history books.

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matxil
@MileHigh. People are supposed to learn from their mistakes. That is why, as you so rightly say, Germany did well after the second world war: because the allies chose not to make the same mistakes as they did after the first world war.

Let's hope the western countries are wise enough now to change their politics in the middle east, instead of blaming everything on refugees, muslims or in trusting ultraright politics. There's a reason for history books.

OK what should the west do now? I would rather someone like you answer this now instead of waiting to see what happens and then finding someway to blame the West.

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stanlove

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matxil
@MileHigh. People are supposed to learn from their mistakes. That is why, as you so rightly say, Germany did well after the second world war: because the allies chose not to make the same mistakes as they did after the first world war.

Let's hope the western countries are wise enough now to change their politics in the middle east, instead of blaming everything on refugees, muslims or in trusting ultraright politics. There's a reason for history books.

OK what should the west do now? I would rather someone like you answer this now instead of waiting to see what happens and then finding someway to blame the West.

I thought I had made that perfectly clear already:
- stop selling arms to Saudi-Arabia
- stop supporting dictators in the middle-east (like we did with Sadam Hussein, like we do now with Egypt and Saudi-Arabia)
- stop training "guerrillas", "freedom-fighters", "jihadi" or any other "allies" in the middle east (like we did with Bin Laden, like we did with Isis).
- stop starting wars in the middle-east (hey, it didn't really work either in Asia or South-America either, remember?)
- support dissidents from these countries who seek refugee in Europe
- support dissident muslim voices (homosexuals, feminists, social-democrats, freedom of speech advocates, all those many muslim people who fight for more liberal governments and are currently tortured in many jails of countries supported by us (did I mention Saudi-Arabia already?))

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MileHigh

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DandelionPowderman

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Stoneage

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DandelionPowderman
You can blame their interpretation of islam, shared by a microscopical part of the Muslims.

I wish it was easy as that, Dandy. But it isn't. Islam isn't a reformed religion like christianity. It still has some very harmful elements in it. I would for one blame islam. I'm no the only one.
Even Napoleon Bonaparte and Churchill was very critical about islam. And people like Richard Dawkins today. And rightfully so. I would even say that today it's even more important to combat the evil of islam.

That's just ignorant, imo.

There are also huge, peaceful Islamic countries (where other religions are allowed as well). Will you blame those countries and their interpretation of the holy book religion as well?

It's a bit like saying all americans are rooting for the Donald. Of course they aren't.

You should look up Brigitte Gabriel on YouTube and elsewhere. If you disagree with her by all means look up people that argue against what she says. Absorb both sides of the debate from her frame of reference.

She says intelligence estimates are that between 15% and 25% of the Muslim population are active or give moral or financial support to radical Islamic fundamentalists. That's hundreds of millions of people that believe that it is ethically and morally right to chop off your hands if you are caught stealing.

My feeling is that your comments are simplistic and naive and politically correct. It's not the majority of good decent Islamic people that we have to worry about, it's the millions that are radicalized or that are sympathetic to radical ideas. They are the ones that can effect change in a bad way.

No, they're not simplistic or naive, as we're left with a billion others who don't believe in violence. And this kind of violence is new - hence it's (considering the total number of Muslims in the world) an interpretation of this religion shared by very few.

This is the fact, not my view.

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matxil

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stanlove

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matxil
@MileHigh. People are supposed to learn from their mistakes. That is why, as you so rightly say, Germany did well after the second world war: because the allies chose not to make the same mistakes as they did after the first world war.

Let's hope the western countries are wise enough now to change their politics in the middle east, instead of blaming everything on refugees, muslims or in trusting ultraright politics. There's a reason for history books.

OK what should the west do now? I would rather someone like you answer this now instead of waiting to see what happens and then finding someway to blame the West.

I thought I had made that perfectly clear already:
- stop selling arms to Saudi-Arabia
- stop supporting dictators in the middle-east (like we did with Sadam Hussein, like we do now with Egypt and Saudi-Arabia)
- stop training "guerrillas", "freedom-fighters", "jihadi" or any other "allies" in the middle east (like we did with Bin Laden, like we did with Isis).
- stop starting wars in the middle-east (hey, it didn't really work either in Asia or South-America either, remember?)
- support dissidents from these countries who seek refugee in Europe
- support dissident muslim voices (homosexuals, feminists, social-democrats, freedom of speech advocates, all those many muslim people who fight for more liberal governments and are currently tortured in many jails of countries supported by us (did I mention Saudi-Arabia already?))

So so naive

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buttons67
its america and its foreign policy that contributes largely to this crap, and britain and others follow.

...

Pretty absurd logic here, it seems to me. Firstly, a country has to make decisions and policies based on what it sees as being in the best interests ... of its own country or that of others that it chooses to support. To say that this leads to this type of action is what is absurd. That means if it changes its policies, the other countries affected should also react with the same 'killing innocent people' for revenge.

Secondly, the groups that do this are not interested in religion or politics, its been proven, they use that as a means to justify their atrocities and to recruit/brainwash is all. This is solely about power and the thrill for them, a means to feel important, make a statement, get attention, by a group of nuts, and nothing more.

USA changes its policies? LOL, you don't think they will now look for another country to start blaming for what it deems is a slight to them, and continue what they do, which is to kill.

The issue is we (The USA) has Nero as its leader.

Given that BV is in Cuba and hasn't got a proper internet connection we should stop discussion politics and religion here, as we all know that he doesn't like certain topics being discussed here (which I agree with) and he's not around to moderate.

With respect to BV we should discipline ourselves and keep an eye on this board while he can't probably take care of the board himself.