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Silver Dagger
One thing I never got though is the curious line, "don't need a virgin priest".

Why would anyone want a virgin priest?

What a stupid question!

Priest

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nightskyman

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DancelittleSister

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nightskyman
I've never heard the original version of this (supposedly with Taylor playing on it using acoustic guitar).

I'd be interested in listening to it...is that available anywhere on the web or youtube?

As far as I know it there's no such version, but I would love to be proven wrong.
Maybe someone can post it here.

Then how can anyone make any comments on what Taylor provided or didn't provide on any recorded version of WOAF? Confusing, as Naturlast says : "I have little doubt he playing on the original version cut in Jamaica..."

Well how can he know about Taylor's playing if you say there's no such version? Has Naturlast listened to 'original version'? Where's his proof, is what I'm asking.

The subject is becoming a bit boring to me by now. There's no proof and most people don't care anyway. I have never heard a studio version or boot with more than one guitar. I don't know who came up with the story that guitar tracks got dubbed a zillion times, that Taylor got wiped, or played the acoustic in the first place. It's always a copy of the same track, recorded during the Taylor years, only differently edited. You cannot claim something you haven't put on tape or something that was wiped, imo. So what was MT talking about?

In 1981 (coloseum) the guitars sound nowhere near the original, in 1997 Keith comes close at times. Taylor never played it live with the Stones. If you search the internet you'll read people /sites saying it's Taylor on the original and others say it's Keith, it's about 50-50. There are only opinions, no official sources yet. It's just what your ears tell you. Can you follow?

Taylor played it once on stage with the Stones, though.

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DandelionPowderman
Taylor played it once on stage with the Stones, though.

On a MKI or MKII ?

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DancelittleSister

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DandelionPowderman
Taylor played it once on stage with the Stones, though.

On a MKI or MKII ?

That's the question

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DancelittleSister

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nightskyman

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DancelittleSister

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nightskyman
I've never heard the original version of this (supposedly with Taylor playing on it using acoustic guitar).

I'd be interested in listening to it...is that available anywhere on the web or youtube?

As far as I know it there's no such version, but I would love to be proven wrong.
Maybe someone can post it here.

Then how can anyone make any comments on what Taylor provided or didn't provide on any recorded version of WOAF? Confusing, as Naturlast says : "I have little doubt he playing on the original version cut in Jamaica..."

Well how can he know about Taylor's playing if you say there's no such version? Has Naturlast listened to 'original version'? Where's his proof, is what I'm asking.

The subject is becoming a bit boring to me by now. There's no proof and most people don't care anyway. I have never heard a studio version or boot with more than one guitar. I don't know who came up with the story that guitar tracks got dubbed a zillion times, that Taylor got wiped, or played the acoustic in the first place. It's always a copy of the same track, recorded during the Taylor years, only differently edited. You cannot claim something you haven't put on tape or something that was wiped, imo. So what was MT talking about?

In 1981 (coloseum) the guitars sound nowhere near the original, in 1997 Keith comes close at times. Taylor never played it live with the Stones. If you search the internet you'll read people /sites saying it's Taylor on the original and others say it's Keith, it's about 50-50. There are only opinions, no official sources yet. It's just what your ears tell you. Can you follow?

Well, you answered my question.

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Silver Dagger
One thing I never got though is the curious line, "don't need a virgin priest".

Why would anyone want a virgin priest?

Maybe the screenwriter was listening to the song when he wrote these Clint Eastwood lines in GRAN TORINO >>>[www.youtube.com]

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DancelittleSister

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nightskyman

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DancelittleSister

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nightskyman
I've never heard the original version of this (supposedly with Taylor playing on it using acoustic guitar).

I'd be interested in listening to it...is that available anywhere on the web or youtube?

As far as I know it there's no such version, but I would love to be proven wrong.
Maybe someone can post it here.

Then how can anyone make any comments on what Taylor provided or didn't provide on any recorded version of WOAF? Confusing, as Naturlast says : "I have little doubt he playing on the original version cut in Jamaica..."

Well how can he know about Taylor's playing if you say there's no such version? Has Naturlast listened to 'original version'? Where's his proof, is what I'm asking.

The subject is becoming a bit boring to me by now. There's no proof and most people don't care anyway. I have never heard a studio version or boot with more than one guitar. I don't know who came up with the story that guitar tracks got dubbed a zillion times, that Taylor got wiped, or played the acoustic in the first place. It's always a copy of the same track, recorded during the Taylor years, only differently edited. You cannot claim something you haven't put on tape or something that was wiped, imo. So what was MT talking about?

In 1981 (coloseum) the guitars sound nowhere near the original, in 1997 Keith comes close at times. Taylor never played it live with the Stones. If you search the internet you'll read people /sites saying it's Taylor on the original and others say it's Keith, it's about 50-50. There are only opinions, no official sources yet. It's just what your ears tell you. Can you follow?

There are versions of WOAF available in tape trading circles from the overdub sessions. Indeed there is only one basic track with one electric guitar, but in 1980/1981 they overdubbed at least two different percussionists, two acoustic guitars, and three different versions of Sonny Rollins' sax.

The statement of Taylor being wiped was more to the extent that if he played on the original track he must have been wiped, as there is only one electric guitar and that's Keith.

I once posted here on Tell Me a description of all versions I have available, but I can't find that anymore.

Mathijs

Intersting story.

There's also another possibility - not that Taylor was wiped, just that his track was never used.

Based on the bootleg, seeing that it sounds like a working mix and therefor seems to have everything in it and why wouldn't they back then, it sounds that he wasn't there for the original tracking session in 1972.

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GasLightStreet
There's also another possibility - not that Taylor was wiped, just that his track was never used.

Based on the bootleg, seeing that it sounds like a working mix and therefor seems to have everything in it and why wouldn't they back then, it sounds that he wasn't there for the original tracking session in 1972.

If so, it's pretty wacked out for him to (allegedly) become angry with the Stones for releasing that song..

I don't believe his track made it, either, but I believe he indeed contributed to it at some point.

For all we know they may have done 10 takes of it and he's not on the take that was used for the LP version.

I'm guessing - strictly by listening to the bootleg - he didn't contribute, he just thinks he did. Because he's not on the bootleg and he's not on the LP version.

Let's see if I got some energy left

Is there actually a reliable source that it's not Taylor: there's nothing really
distinct about the electric guitar track, I mean Taylor could easily have played it, just like Keith, and it's recorded in the Taylor years? The the final release is copy of all the boot tracks available albeit differently edited. Nobody is credited, and there are only opinions (our ears) and no sources. Unbiased reactions on the subject please?

Is there another track in the Stones catalogue where Taylor has been this modest, patient and consistent in his rhythm playing? The closest I can think of is Bitch, but even there he starts to play with the rhythm after a while.

Somebody close to him claims that he is playing the third guitar on Luxury, but that one is also more syncopated and "clever" than this guitar track.

I can't see Taylor copying some of Keith's trademark licks, but that's me



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-01-28 22:56 by DandelionPowderman.

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DancelittleSister

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nightskyman

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DancelittleSister

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nightskyman
I've never heard the original version of this (supposedly with Taylor playing on it using acoustic guitar).

I'd be interested in listening to it...is that available anywhere on the web or youtube?

As far as I know it there's no such version, but I would love to be proven wrong.
Maybe someone can post it here.

Then how can anyone make any comments on what Taylor provided or didn't provide on any recorded version of WOAF? Confusing, as Naturlast says : "I have little doubt he playing on the original version cut in Jamaica..."

Well how can he know about Taylor's playing if you say there's no such version? Has Naturlast listened to 'original version'? Where's his proof, is what I'm asking.

The subject is becoming a bit boring to me by now. There's no proof and most people don't care anyway. I have never heard a studio version or boot with more than one guitar. I don't know who came up with the story that guitar tracks got dubbed a zillion times, that Taylor got wiped, or played the acoustic in the first place. It's always a copy of the same track, recorded during the Taylor years, only differently edited. You cannot claim something you haven't put on tape or something that was wiped, imo. So what was MT talking about?

In 1981 (coloseum) the guitars sound nowhere near the original, in 1997 Keith comes close at times. Taylor never played it live with the Stones. If you search the internet you'll read people /sites saying it's Taylor on the original and others say it's Keith, it's about 50-50. There are only opinions, no official sources yet. It's just what your ears tell you. Can you follow?

I certainly have no proof but some of the outtakes sound like possibly more that one guitar track.

[www.youtube.com]

My assumption that he played on the initial track in Jamaica was just based on the fact that this song (and Tops) were reportedly named in a lawsuit Taylor filed against the stones and a settlement was made. I can't imagine him doing so if he didn't play on the tune. And he was certainly in Jamaica for the sessions, I haven't heard any reports of him missing any (unlike Keith).

But like I said the part sounds like pretty classic Keith. Not that Taylor wasn't capable of playing like Keith or that he didn't. One has to look no further than Angie (from the same sessions) and watch Taylors playing in this video to see that he was perfectly capable of modest, patient and consistent rhythm playing.

[www.youtube.com]

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DandelionPowderman
Is there another track in the Stones catalogue where has been this modest, patient and consistent in his rhythm playing? The closest I can think of is Bitch, but even there he starts to play with the rhythm after a while.

Somebody close to him claims that he is playing the third guitar on Luxury, but that one is also more syncopated and "clever" than this guitar track.

I can't see Taylor copying some of Keith's trademark licks, but that's me

If you listen the first verse of dead flowers, marquee club, you here Taylor do these HO PO things, so without bashing Keith or Mick Taylor, it's just basic guitar playing.On WAOF I don't hear the trademark Keith thing, neither the trademark Taylor things. And on Taylor's solo records, 1979 in particular he is as consistent and relaxed as can be, let's say Alabama is that kind of playing, both acoustic and electric.There are more examples. The most plausible reason for me to assume that Keith actually played the electric is because the WAOF writing credits go the glimmer twins, not for the guitar playing itself.

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Naturalust

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DancelittleSister

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nightskyman

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DancelittleSister

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nightskyman
I've never heard the original version of this (supposedly with Taylor playing on it using acoustic guitar).

I'd be interested in listening to it...is that available anywhere on the web or youtube?

As far as I know it there's no such version, but I would love to be proven wrong.
Maybe someone can post it here.

Then how can anyone make any comments on what Taylor provided or didn't provide on any recorded version of WOAF? Confusing, as Naturlast says : "I have little doubt he playing on the original version cut in Jamaica..."

Well how can he know about Taylor's playing if you say there's no such version? Has Naturlast listened to 'original version'? Where's his proof, is what I'm asking.

The subject is becoming a bit boring to me by now. There's no proof and most people don't care anyway. I have never heard a studio version or boot with more than one guitar. I don't know who came up with the story that guitar tracks got dubbed a zillion times, that Taylor got wiped, or played the acoustic in the first place. It's always a copy of the same track, recorded during the Taylor years, only differently edited. You cannot claim something you haven't put on tape or something that was wiped, imo. So what was MT talking about?

In 1981 (coloseum) the guitars sound nowhere near the original, in 1997 Keith comes close at times. Taylor never played it live with the Stones. If you search the internet you'll read people /sites saying it's Taylor on the original and others say it's Keith, it's about 50-50. There are only opinions, no official sources yet. It's just what your ears tell you. Can you follow?

I certainly have no proof but some of the outtakes sound like possibly more that one guitar track.

[www.youtube.com]

My assumption that he played on the initial track in Jamaica was just based on the fact that this song (and Tops) were reportedly named in a lawsuit Taylor filed against the stones and a settlement was made. I can't imagine him doing so if he didn't play on the tune. And he was certainly in Jamaica for the sessions, I haven't heard any reports of him missing any (unlike Keith).

But like I said the part sounds like pretty classic Keith. Not that Taylor wasn't capable of playing like Keith or that he didn't. One has to look no further than Angie (from the same sessions) and watch Taylors playing in this video to see that he was perfectly capable of modest, patient and consistent rhythm playing.

[www.youtube.com]

Thanks for your contribution NL.I agree on your statements about Keith and Taylor's playing including the sessions at the time. I have heard those tracks you posted many times already, and there's only one guitar, and there's a lot of reverb (DP rightfully mentioned this already) plus the piano,which makes it a bit tricky to separate. I have contacted 2 great boot collectors and they provided 4 or 5 versions, but when I asked for versions with acoustics on it, nada. So maybe someone reading this forum sooner or later posts them, if they exist. And even then it tells us nothing about the electric track, tic tac.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-01-28 23:18 by DancelittleSister.

The official release sounds like Keith on guitar - and only Keith. If Taylor played on it it's not in the mix, just as it sounds on the bootlegs. Maybe Taylor played so much on it that it was messy and they kept it out.

Maybe he didn't play on it.

His demand to be paid for the LP version that he's not on was most likely dismissed since he was already paid for the original session. Once you're paid for recording you don't get paid for not being on the final version. Has he ever stated specifically what he did? I've not ever seen it.

Yeah yeah yeah there are tracks without Keith on them that are just Mick T and Mick T and Mick J on guitars. But there are other tracks without Mick T on them, like Happy and Tumbling Dice and Soul Survivor and Coming Down Again and It's Only Rock'N'Roll and Luxury.

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GasLightStreet
The official release sounds like Keith on guitar - and only Keith. If Taylor played on it it's not in the mix, just as it sounds on the bootlegs. Maybe Taylor played so much on it that it was messy and they kept it out.

Maybe he didn't play on it.

His demand to be paid for the LP version that he's not on was most likely dismissed since he was already paid for the original session. Once you're paid for recording you don't get paid for not being on the final version. Has he ever stated specifically what he did? I've not ever seen it.

Yeah yeah yeah there are tracks without Keith on them that are just Mick T and Mick T and Mick J on guitars. But there are other tracks without Mick T on them, like Happy and Tumbling Dice and Soul Survivor and Coming Down Again and It's Only Rock'N'Roll and Luxury.

Seems there's a lot at stake based on all these posts on the recordings and credits for this particular song. I still think of it as Keith's riff and guitar playing on the released version, whether it was created by him or not.

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GasLightStreet
The official release sounds like Keith on guitar - and only Keith. If Taylor played on it it's not in the mix, just as it sounds on the bootlegs. Maybe Taylor played so much on it that it was messy and they kept it out.

Maybe he didn't play on it.

His demand to be paid for the LP version that he's not on was most likely dismissed since he was already paid for the original session. Once you're paid for recording you don't get paid for not being on the final version. Has he ever stated specifically what he did? I've not ever seen it.

Yeah yeah yeah there are tracks without Keith on them that are just Mick T and Mick T and Mick J on guitars. But there are other tracks without Mick T on them, like Happy and Tumbling Dice and Soul Survivor and Coming Down Again and It's Only Rock'N'Roll and Luxury.

Actually Taylor played bass on Coming Down Again and Tumbling Dice and played slide on Soul Survivor. Apparently Taylors suit was settled, not dismissed, a pretty good indication he indeed played on the released version. And the Stones don't get paid for their sessions, recording is on the expense side of the balance sheet.

And as Taylor got paid an equal share for all record sales when he was an equal member, it didn't matter one bit whether he was on all the tracks or not. Of course the writers got their publishing money but that is different. The fact that this was released on a record after Taylor was gone is the reason he demanded to get paid for it, and rightly so, imo. This coupled with the fact we have never heard Keith talking about his contribution to the track and that he has never really played it live exactly like the released version, the subtle hammers and licks that he often exploits on other tunes he played on, makes me think this one is all Taylor.

And to me the electric sounds like a guitar following an already recorded track. And the way it's played its the way you'd assume one plays an acoustic. Could be the song starts with an acoustic that has been partially wiped.

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Redhotcarpet
And to me the electric sounds like a guitar following an already recorded track. And the way it's played its the way you'd assume one plays an acoustic. Could be the song starts with an acoustic that has been partially wiped.

That acoustic was played by Ry Cooder, I heard...

Don't forget that wiping Taylor's parts certainly is possible. Take the half a dozen or so Brown Sugar outtakes -Taylor is on all of them, even playing a lead guitar on one, but on the official version all his parts are wiped, and he doesn't even appear on it anymore. Remember the Exile outtakes from that Nicky Hopkins tape. Taylor was present and played on all versions recorded in the basement, but just about everything he played except his slide on all Down the line was wiped.

Mathijs

The Stones must have had good reasons for wiping Taylor. Maybe he was too much noodling.

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Mathijs
Don't forget that wiping Taylor's parts certainly is possible. Take the half a dozen or so Brown Sugar outtakes -Taylor is on all of them, even playing a lead guitar on one, but on the official version all his parts are wiped, and he doesn't even appear on it anymore. Remember the Exile outtakes from that Nicky Hopkins tape. Taylor was present and played on all versions recorded in the basement, but just about everything he played except his slide on all Down the line was wiped.

Mathijs

Insightful arguments. I'm sure there's not a single Stones member who's tracks haven't been wiped or dubbed several times. And everything Taylor played on official Stones releases lifted them to a higher level, just like all the other musicians that attended the musical Stones parties.

First off we're judging by what circulates which is a couple takes only when these guys spent months in the studio cutting countless versions with different overdubs in 1972/73 and 1979/80/81. Look to Brown Sugar and Miss You as examples. The saxophone solo replaces a discarded guitar solo. Listen to the amazing soaring jazz notes on Waiting on a Friend. The likely inference is that Taylor recognized his creative contribution when he heard Sonny Rollins' saxophone solo.

And that solo sure sounds like nickys piano but also like Taylor (twfn or the acoustic licks on ttntwsg, at least the video version) .

Now where is Doxa?

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Rocky Dijon
The saxophone solo replaces a discarded guitar solo. Listen to the amazing soaring jazz notes on Waiting on a Friend.
The likely inference is that Taylor recognized his creative contribution when he heard Sonny Rollins' saxophone solo.

Oh my, Rocky Dijon - would you really bring in Sonny Rollins and tell him "play what that guy played"?!

Sonny Rollins was there as a session musician and he played what they wanted him to play. It´s a job.