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dcba

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Doxa

'Songs first, songs first', say the bosses...

- Doxa

Said differently : 'hey we do not need a Jimmy Page clone in our band'.

I am pretty sure Mick and Keith held in absolute contempt bands that played looong tracks with loooong guitar solos in them, like Zep or Pink Floyd.

And even live MT was held on a leash : listen to 73 aud tapes : there are quite a few instances where Jagger started to shout 'yeah yeah' over a MT solo, which was a way to say : 'okay boy enough already'.

Taylor was nothing like Jimmy Page

and part of the reason they hired him was to take their stage performance to the next level

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RobertJohnson
What's on my mind concerning Mick Taylor? "Winter" – a song with three chords, a simple progression, D, A, E, What Mick Taylor gets out of this chord progression! Every note is right, even the quiet ones. Whenever I listen to this song, I'm almost overwhelmed! Yesterday was that time again. But don't forget, the magic of the song is also due to the great rhythm guitar of the other Mick.

Similar thoughts! My absolute favourite when I think of Taylor's ability to make magic. Each note, thee touch, the feel.. just brilliant. One of the very best lead guitar parts ever cut on a recording. Hits me big time every time I listen it. Like 'wow, one can do and express things like that with a guitar'.

Both Micks shine actually. Jagger's vocal and Taylor's guitar support each other brilliantly. Unique moment in the recorded history of The Stones. Hits that kind of emotions not any other Stones track do.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-02-22 21:32 by Doxa.

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Doxa
both Micks shine actually. Jagger's vocal and Taylor's guitar support each other brilliantly. Unique moment in the recorded history of The Stones. Hits that kind of emotions not any other Stones track do.

- Doxa

Good boy.

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Mathijs


<completely under rehearsed, substance abuse>
Mathijs

I doubt that the average Stones fan or the Stones' guitarists themselves would notice the difference between completely drug fuelled or sober, rehearsed or under rehearsed; after 50 years of "stage experience". Thank god for that.

Trying to stay sober themselves, I guess they would notice a relapse in the band

A disaster.

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TheflyingDutchman

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Mathijs



Mathijs

I doubt that the average Stones fan or the Stones' guitarists themselves would notice the difference between completely drug fuelled or sober, rehearsed or under rehearsed; after 50 years of "stage experience". Thank god for that.

And whose fault is it he was under rehearsed? Not Taylor.And he still sounded better than Ron or Keith.Keith played great from 1972-1975 while under the influence.On the 1975 tour he was awesome .But didn’t he almost pass out on stage singing Happy

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TheflyingDutchman


I doubt that the average Stones fan or the Stones' guitarists themselves would notice the difference between completely drug fuelled or sober, rehearsed or under rehearsed; after 50 years of "stage experience". Thank god for that.

the average punter probably not, but any fan can tell the difference between a beginning-of-tour perf - tentative and not very exciting - and an end-of-tour one, when the band has turned into a musical juggernaut.

An exception to that rule would be the 89 tour, where the band - anxious to be given a good welcome - came absolutely ready for the Aug.31 premiere gig.

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dcba

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TheflyingDutchman


I doubt that the average Stones fan or the Stones' guitarists themselves would notice the difference between completely drug fuelled or sober, rehearsed or under rehearsed; after 50 years of "stage experience". Thank god for that.

the average punter probably not, but any fan can tell the difference between a beginning-of-tour perf - tentative and not very exciting - and an end-of-tour one, when the band has turned into a musical juggernaut.

An exception to that rule would be the 89 tour, where the band - anxious to be given a good welcome - came absolutely ready for the Aug.31 premiere gig.

Fair enough. Still the Stones throughout their career where
notorious for being on booze and dope on stage. But still they delivered. After Keith fell out of that tree, and other health issues that come with age and life style occurred, they stayed sober. They had to. Cats with 7 lives. I wonder if Jagger -he quit earlier, and Ron, Taylor and Keith in particular have regrets. In hindsight..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-02-25 16:02 by TheflyingDutchman.

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TheflyingDutchman

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dcba

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TheflyingDutchman


I doubt that the average Stones fan or the Stones' guitarists themselves would notice the difference between completely drug fuelled or sober, rehearsed or under rehearsed; after 50 years of "stage experience". Thank god for that.

the average punter probably not, but any fan can tell the difference between a beginning-of-tour perf - tentative and not very exciting - and an end-of-tour one, when the band has turned into a musical juggernaut.

An exception to that rule would be the 89 tour, where the band - anxious to be given a good welcome - came absolutely ready for the Aug.31 premiere gig.

Fair enough. Still the Stones throughout their career where
notorious for being on booze and dope on stage. But still they delivered. After Keith fell out of that tree, and other health issues that come with age and life style occurred, they stayed sober. They had to. Cats with 7 lives. I wonder if Jagger -he quit earlier, and Ron, Taylor and Keith in particular have regrets. In hindsight..

So why are they better at the end of the tour? Because they shake off the rust and have a chance to gel? So if Taylor was usually given only one song to play every show maybe he needed a few more songs in a row to play better? Personally , I hear nothing wrong with his playing on those 50 and counting shows, even if it’s not 1972-1973 playing.There were some really good performances like CYHMK at Glastonbury and some good Midnight Ramblers. I haven’t heard one performance where he was playing like Brian at the Circus where he did not play up to the band’s level. He was as good if not better than Keith or Wood on those 50 and Counting Shows



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-02-25 18:12 by Taylor1.

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TheflyingDutchman


I doubt that the average Stones fan or the Stones' guitarists themselves would notice the difference between completely drug fuelled or sober, rehearsed or under rehearsed; after 50 years of "stage experience". Thank god for that.

the average punter probably not, but any fan can tell the difference between a beginning-of-tour perf - tentative and not very exciting - and an end-of-tour one, when the band has turned into a musical juggernaut.

An exception to that rule would be the 89 tour, where the band - anxious to be given a good welcome - came absolutely ready for the Aug.31 premiere gig.

Fair enough. Still the Stones throughout their career where
notorious for being on booze and dope on stage. But still they delivered. After Keith fell out of that tree, and other health issues that come with age and life style occurred, they stayed sober. They had to. Cats with 7 lives. I wonder if Jagger -he quit earlier, and Ron, Taylor and Keith in particular have regrets. In hindsight..

So why are they better at the end of the tour? Because they shake off the rust and have a chance to gel? So if Taylor was usually given only one song to play every show maybe he needed a few more songs in a row to play better? Personally , I hear nothing wrong with his playing on those 50 and counting shows, even if it’s not 1972-1973 playing.There were some really good performances like CYHMK at Glastonbury and some good Midnight Ramblers. I haven’t heard one performance where he was playing like Brian at the Circus where he did not play up to the band’s level. He was as good if not better than Keith or Wood on those 50 and Counting Shows

They are better after or at the end of a tour because they have more routine. Clean or on Cocaine and drunk. The way that Keith, Rom Wood or Taylor play is not technically demanding. It's about feeling. But drinking and doing coke etc for a long time causes brain damage. Listen to clean players like Ritchi Blackmore, Pat Metheny etc. They still have the level they had when they were 35.

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Taylor1
Personally , I hear nothing wrong with his playing on those 50 and counting shows, even if it’s not 1972-1973 playing.

Well, check out his totally failed attempt to play Silver Train, or the various Sway solo's that were trainwrecks. Or many CYHMK where he is just noodling.

Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

They are better after or at the end of a tour because they have more routine. Clean or on Cocaine and drunk. The way that Keith, Rom Wood or Taylor play is not technically demanding.

First, try to play like Richards and Wood on the 1978 and 1981 tour and you'll find out it is much more technically challenging then expected. They play inventive lines, at quite a high speed. And to add, none if the great players of the 1960's -Page, Clapton, Taylor, Peter Green and even Hendrix- had exceptional technical skills. It wasn't until the hard rock players like Blackmore they started to develop technique that brought them beyond the 'standard' blues scales.

Second, I think their drugged out image on stage is for the most part exactly that. There were some 1975 shows where Keith was quite out of it, but it simply is impossible to play like they did in the 19070's and early 1980's drugged out. Sure they might have taken a line of coke to increase the energy level, but to be able to play like they did on those tour they sure couldn't be totally wasted. Even though they dressed and acted up to it.

Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

They are better after or at the end of a tour because they have more routine. Clean or on Cocaine and drunk. The way that Keith, Rom Wood or Taylor play is not technically demanding.

First, try to play like Richards and Wood on the 1978 and 1981 tour and you'll find out it is much more technically challenging then expected. They play inventive lines, at quite a high speed. And to add, none if the great players of the 1960's -Page, Clapton, Taylor, Peter Green and even Hendrix- had exceptional technical skills. It wasn't until the hard rock players like Blackmore they started to develop technique that brought them beyond the 'standard' blues scales.

Second, I think their drugged out image on stage is for the most part exactly that. There were some 1975 shows where Keith was quite out of it, but it simply is impossible to play like they did in the 19070's and early 1980's drugged out. Sure they might have taken a line of coke to increase the energy level, but to be able to play like they did on those tour they sure couldn't be totally wasted. Even though they dressed and acted up to it.

Mathijs

Give me a couple songs to check out and I'm sure I could knock them out a lot quicker than it took me any of Hendrix's ballads or Taylor's Brussels Gimme Shelter solos at full speed.

Compared to their peers, those players Mathijs mentions were among the elite players of their time. And they were performing and recording under the influence...without them doing drugs I doubt we would even be talking about their music today.

As for Taylor, we will never know how it could have been in 2013, had he been given more room to get integrated with the music/band. It could have taken years for them to gel again though, if ever.

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TheflyingDutchman

They are better after or at the end of a tour because they have more routine. Clean or on Cocaine and drunk. The way that Keith, Rom Wood or Taylor play is not technically demanding.

First, try to play like Richards and Wood on the 1978 and 1981 tour and you'll find out it is much more technically challenging then expected. They play inventive lines, at quite a high speed. And to add, none if the great players of the 1960's -Page, Clapton, Taylor, Peter Green and even Hendrix- had exceptional technical skills. It wasn't until the hard rock players like Blackmore they started to develop technique that brought them beyond the 'standard' blues scales.



Mathijs

Sure. I don't even try to play like Wood, Richards or Taylor. Technically, I meant compared to nerds like John McLaughlin or Allan Holdsworth (see picture below). I don't try to play like them either.






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-02-26 19:11 by TheflyingDutchman.

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Taylor1
Personally , I hear nothing wrong with his playing on those 50 and counting shows, even if it’s not 1972-1973 playing.

Well, check out his totally failed attempt to play Silver Train, or the various Sway solo's that were trainwrecks. Or many CYHMK where he is just noodling.

Mathijs

Wow, since he only played Silver Train and Sway 2 or 3 times after 40 years that is really a big body of work to criticize.Andthe same with CYHMK, although I think he did a great version at Glastonbury

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Mathijs
but to be able to play like they did on those tour they sure couldn't be totally wasted. Even though they dressed and acted up to it.

Mathijs

Imho, while Keith was certainly hurt and upset by Dean Martin’s disparaging comment in 1964 he learnt one thing from Dino : that you can build an act and a career on looking wasted/drunk.

It looks cool, it does not damage your health, and people love it. Keith has elevated that practice to an art.

....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-02-27 00:48 by TheflyingDutchman.

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Taylor1
Personally , I hear nothing wrong with his playing on those 50 and counting shows, even if it’s not 1972-1973 playing.

Well, check out his totally failed attempt to play Silver Train, or the various Sway solo's that were trainwrecks. Or many CYHMK where he is just noodling.

Mathijs

To have a credible opinion that might change anyone's mind, one needs to make a good faith effort to concede and confront the obvious weaknesses in one's position as well.

For the purpose of discussion, assuming they were "trainwrecks" -- have you listened to the other guitarists' playing during those very same performances? Ronnie saw fit to play the first solos on Sway, for example. Do you want to defend those solos compared to what Mick Taylor played next in the second solo slot (while being hawked and hounded by Mick J to end them prematurely)?

Especially on Sway, the entire "core" Stones sound like they are engaged in outright sabotage, including Mick J's disinterested, disaffected vocals. And does anyone really think MT would have lasted through the entire 2012-14 tours if he had been blowing them off the stage every night?

We all realize now (after hearing his coherent and cogent soloing on Hackney Diamonds) just how much Ronnie had to hold back all those decades to keep Keith happy and thereby rake-in hundreds of millions of bucks. Consider why Andrew Watt swapped Ronnie into the right channel on Hackney suddenly, after an eternity of Keith always owning it himself.

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TheflyingDutchman

They are better after or at the end of a tour because they have more routine. Clean or on Cocaine and drunk. The way that Keith, Rom Wood or Taylor play is not technically demanding.

First, try to play like Richards and Wood on the 1978 and 1981 tour and you'll find out it is much more technically challenging then expected. They play inventive lines, at quite a high speed. And to add, none if the great players of the 1960's -Page, Clapton, Taylor, Peter Green and even Hendrix- had exceptional technical skills. It wasn't until the hard rock players like Blackmore they started to develop technique that brought them beyond the 'standard' blues scales.



Mathijs

Sure. I don't even try to play like Wood, Richards or Taylor. Technically, I meant compared to nerds like John McLaughlin or Allan Holdsworth (see picture below). I don't try to play like them either.

McLaughlin would not be as good as Keith playing rhythm guitar at his best

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TravelinMan
Give me a couple songs to check out and I'm sure I could knock them out a lot quicker than it took me any of Hendrix's ballads or Taylor's Brussels Gimme Shelter solos at full speed.

Try Keith's part of Beast of Burden, note for note. Or Ronnie's solos on Black Limo, Neighbours, Shattered or 20 Flight Rock, all from Hampton.

Mathijs

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TravelinMan
Give me a couple songs to check out and I'm sure I could knock them out a lot quicker than it took me any of Hendrix's ballads or Taylor's Brussels Gimme Shelter solos at full speed.

Try Keith's part of Beast of Burden, note for note. Or Ronnie's solos on Black Limo, Neighbours, Shattered or 20 Flight Rock, all from Hampton.

Mathijs

How about Taylor’s solos on Sympathy for the Devil,( Get Yer Ya Ya’s Out)Street Fighting Man,(London 1973),Sway and 100 Years Ago



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-02-27 14:18 by Taylor1.

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Taylor1
McLaughlin would not be as good as Keith playing rhythm guitar at his best

Impossible to measure greatness, but on Bitches Brew, Jack Johnson and On the Corner, just to name a few, Mc's guitar work is celestial!

C

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TravelinMan
Give me a couple songs to check out and I'm sure I could knock them out a lot quicker than it took me any of Hendrix's ballads or Taylor's Brussels Gimme Shelter solos at full speed.

Try Keith's part of Beast of Burden, note for note. Or Ronnie's solos on Black Limo, Neighbours, Shattered or 20 Flight Rock, all from Hampton.

Mathijs

How about Taylor’s solos on Sympathy for the Devil,( Get Yer Ya Ya’s Out)Street Fighting Man,(London 1973),Sway and 100 Years Ago

All great solos, but not that hard to copy. You do need the talent of Taylor to invent these solos though.

IMO Taylor's most amazing solos are Gimme Shelter, Happy, Heartbreaker and SFM all from Wembley, September 9, 1973. Really incredible from a melodic point of view, and also quite difficult to play, especially Gimme Shelter.

Mathijs

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Taylor1

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TravelinMan
Give me a couple songs to check out and I'm sure I could knock them out a lot quicker than it took me any of Hendrix's ballads or Taylor's Brussels Gimme Shelter solos at full speed.

Try Keith's part of Beast of Burden, note for note. Or Ronnie's solos on Black Limo, Neighbours, Shattered or 20 Flight Rock, all from Hampton.

Mathijs

How about Taylor’s solos on Sympathy for the Devil,( Get Yer Ya Ya’s Out)Street Fighting Man,(London 1973),Sway and 100 Years Ago

All great solos, but not that hard to copy. You do need the talent of Taylor to invent these solos though.

IMO Taylor's most amazing solos are Gimme Shelter, Happy, Heartbreaker and SFM all from Wembley, September 9, 1973. Really incredible from a melodic point of view, and also quite difficult to play, especially Gimme Shelter.

Mathijs

But isn’t it also the creativity of it that matters also. Satisfaction riff is simple but Keith was the one who came up with it

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TravelinMan
Give me a couple songs to check out and I'm sure I could knock them out a lot quicker than it took me any of Hendrix's ballads or Taylor's Brussels Gimme Shelter solos at full speed.

Try Keith's part of Beast of Burden, note for note. Or Ronnie's solos on Black Limo, Neighbours, Shattered or 20 Flight Rock, all from Hampton.

Mathijs

How about Taylor’s solos on Sympathy for the Devil,( Get Yer Ya Ya’s Out)Street Fighting Man,(London 1973),Sway and 100 Years Ago

All great solos, but not that hard to copy. You do need the talent of Taylor to invent these solos though.

IMO Taylor's most amazing solos are Gimme Shelter, Happy, Heartbreaker and SFM all from Wembley, September 9, 1973. Really incredible from a melodic point of view, and also quite difficult to play, especially Gimme Shelter.

Mathijs

But isn’t it also the creativity of it that matters also. Satisfaction riff is simple but Keith was the one who came up with it

Exactly. I know tons of people who can play but cannot write. They're a dime a dozen. Creativity is what I gravitate to, not clones. Vai, Malmsteen, etc. may be technical wizards, but I can't listen to them. Give me Keith, Neil Young, J Mascis, Dean Ween, Jerry Cantrell, etc. over boring technical speedsters any day.

Yeah, to be creative in the moment without trying to copy something note for note, thats what turns my head. Maximum speed playing becomes finger excercises in noodling without a melody. I think Taylor is somewhat guilty of that on the Wembley solos, I prefer the slower paced YCAGWYW solo (infusing his Winter parts) or the more 'to the point' solos of Tumbling Dice from Bruxelles.

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Taylor1

McLaughlin would not be as good as Keith playing rhythm guitar at his best

I grew up with both and enjoy both. They are completely different players. Cherish the players you like, forget the ones you don't like and don't compare would be my advice to all the posters on the "Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now" thread, or in general. I'm too old for this crap by now.

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Taylor1

McLaughlin would not be as good as Keith playing rhythm guitar at his best

I grew up with both and enjoy both. They are completely different players. Cherish the players you like, forget the ones you don't like and don't compare would be my advice to all the posters on the "Mick Taylor Talk - what's on your mind right now" thread, or in general. I'm too old for this crap by now.

Actually, McLaughlin isn't that far off on Miles's Jack Johnson album