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Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: gwen ()
Date: February 25, 2015 20:26

Dan, I understand your point of view, thing is that there is not really a primary market anymore.

Re: OT - Ticket Touts - New UK Legislation planned
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: February 25, 2015 21:18

Quote
johnnythunders
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Is this going to help ? Paulywaul, perhaps you can advise ?

Here's another article about it .......

[www.independent.co.uk]

What is interesting about this is that if you read what I was gassing on about earlier in this thread; namely about an amendment to the consumer rights bill that was proposed - the motion for it was defeated in a vote about a month ago. It would seem as if following a subsequent outpouring of complaints from public, artists, and venues after that defeat, the government has now been forced into a U-turn.

This has to be seen as good news, because little by little it says that there finally is some level of recognition that "market forces" are one thing, but wanton malpractice and deceit are another - and steps are needing to be taken to address the problems associated with this phenomenon. In short, the secondary market sites are now going to be forced BY LAW to provide crucially needed more specific details about what precisely is being sold. That is a basic right that ANY consumer of ANYTHING should be afforded, and up until now - consumers of tickets on the secondary market have been denied those crucial details.

A step in the right direction ........ long overdue, but great news nevertheless. The secondary sites are already squealing. My sentiment ? F**K 'EM !! A view not shared by everyone on this board I fully appreciate, but it's my view nevertheless ! A small victory for the people, i.e. you, me, and any other poor sod that simply wants to go to a gig and not get royally f**ked by an unregulated and exploitative phenomenon (sold to us as the free market economy in action) come "ticket buying" time.

Me ? I'm grinning smiley grinning smiley grinning smiley

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-02-25 21:19 by paulywaul.

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: February 25, 2015 21:20

Quote
gwen
Dan, I understand your point of view, thing is that there is not really a primary market anymore.

So true, so very true .......

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: February 25, 2015 22:18

A spokesperson for Ticketmaster told us: "Fans are demanding better access to tickets, with greater levels of choice and flexibility; recent research having shown that 80% of the British public want the right to resell tickets."

Wtf? Sounds like total BS to me. The British public want to resell their tickets? I'm pretty sure most of them just want to be able to buy decent seats at face value.

It would be great to take one Stones concert and have total visibility over who got all the tickets on the day of sale. Some estimates are that 80+% of them go to resellers. If true that is absurd! peace

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: grzegorz67 ()
Date: February 25, 2015 22:23

Keep on it Paulywaul, I'm woth you 100% I refuse to use these 2mdaty sites, even if it means missing a show.

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: February 25, 2015 22:27

Quote
Naturalust
A spokesperson for Ticketmaster told us: "Fans are demanding better access to tickets, with greater levels of choice and flexibility; recent research having shown that 80% of the British public want the right to resell tickets."

Wtf? Sounds like total BS to me. The British public want to resell their tickets? I'm pretty sure most of them just want to be able to buy decent seats at face value.

It would be great to take one Stones concert and have total visibility over who got all the tickets on the day of sale. Some estimates are that 80+% of them go to resellers. If true that is absurd! peace

Well they would come out with statements like that, wouldn't they ? The irrefutable fact of the matter is quite simply this, the secondary market has cooked its own goose, and is now going to get reined in a little bit. Had to happen ... and it now finally has. It was a long time coming but it was inevitable.

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: February 25, 2015 22:35

Quote
grzegorz67
Keep on it Paulywaul, I'm woth you 100% I refuse to use these 2mdaty sites, even if it means missing a show.

I'm a bit more pragmatic, I use the secondary market because regrettably I occasionally have no choice ...... in other words I've not been successful at getting what I wanted in the first 30 seconds (typically) of when things go on sale with the primary vendor.

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: February 25, 2015 22:39

Quote
paulywaul
Quote
Naturalust
A spokesperson for Ticketmaster told us: "Fans are demanding better access to tickets, with greater levels of choice and flexibility; recent research having shown that 80% of the British public want the right to resell tickets."

Wtf? Sounds like total BS to me. The British public want to resell their tickets? I'm pretty sure most of them just want to be able to buy decent seats at face value.

It would be great to take one Stones concert and have total visibility over who got all the tickets on the day of sale. Some estimates are that 80+% of them go to resellers. If true that is absurd! peace

Well they would come out with statements like that, wouldn't they ? The irrefutable fact of the matter is quite simply this, the secondary market has cooked its own goose, and is now going to get reined in a little bit. Had to happen ... and it now finally has. It was a long time coming but it was inevitable.

Unfortunately, I don't see any changes happening in time for this summer's tour. It will interesting to revisit the issue and see just how many of us had to bite the bullet to get decent seats. It almost seems like poising over the keyboard on the secondary websites is more likely to produce results that the primary seller websites. I'm not giving in yet and thanks paulywaul for sharing your well intended passion on this issue. peace

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: Dan ()
Date: February 25, 2015 22:42

Quote
paulywaul
Quote
grzegorz67
Keep on it Paulywaul, I'm woth you 100% I refuse to use these 2mdaty sites, even if it means missing a show.

I'm a bit more pragmatic, I use the secondary market because regrettably I occasionally have no choice ...... in other words I've not been successful at getting what I wanted in the first 30 seconds (typically) of when things go on sale with the primary vendor.

Which is actually the worst time to be buying tickets

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: Dan ()
Date: February 25, 2015 22:44

Quote
gwen
Dan, I understand your point of view, thing is that there is not really a primary market anymore.

I haven't paid broker prices in over 20 years. The only show I have ever been shut out of was the Echoplex.

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: Dan ()
Date: February 25, 2015 22:46

Quote
Naturalust
Quote
paulywaul
Quote
Naturalust
A spokesperson for Ticketmaster told us: "Fans are demanding better access to tickets, with greater levels of choice and flexibility; recent research having shown that 80% of the British public want the right to resell tickets."

Wtf? Sounds like total BS to me. The British public want to resell their tickets? I'm pretty sure most of them just want to be able to buy decent seats at face value.

It would be great to take one Stones concert and have total visibility over who got all the tickets on the day of sale. Some estimates are that 80+% of them go to resellers. If true that is absurd! peace

Well they would come out with statements like that, wouldn't they ? The irrefutable fact of the matter is quite simply this, the secondary market has cooked its own goose, and is now going to get reined in a little bit. Had to happen ... and it now finally has. It was a long time coming but it was inevitable.

Unfortunately, I don't see any changes happening in time for this summer's tour. It will interesting to revisit the issue and see just how many of us had to bite the bullet to get decent seats. It almost seems like poising over the keyboard on the secondary websites is more likely to produce results that the primary seller websites. I'm not giving in yet and thanks paulywaul for sharing your well intended passion on this issue. peace


Yes, the Rolling Stones are going to be scalping their own tickets. What legislation is going to prevent that?

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: February 25, 2015 22:52

Quote
Dan
Quote
Naturalust
Quote
paulywaul
Quote
Naturalust
A spokesperson for Ticketmaster told us: "Fans are demanding better access to tickets, with greater levels of choice and flexibility; recent research having shown that 80% of the British public want the right to resell tickets."

Wtf? Sounds like total BS to me. The British public want to resell their tickets? I'm pretty sure most of them just want to be able to buy decent seats at face value.

It would be great to take one Stones concert and have total visibility over who got all the tickets on the day of sale. Some estimates are that 80+% of them go to resellers. If true that is absurd! peace

Well they would come out with statements like that, wouldn't they ? The irrefutable fact of the matter is quite simply this, the secondary market has cooked its own goose, and is now going to get reined in a little bit. Had to happen ... and it now finally has. It was a long time coming but it was inevitable.

Unfortunately, I don't see any changes happening in time for this summer's tour. It will interesting to revisit the issue and see just how many of us had to bite the bullet to get decent seats. It almost seems like poising over the keyboard on the secondary websites is more likely to produce results that the primary seller websites. I'm not giving in yet and thanks paulywaul for sharing your well intended passion on this issue. peace


Yes, the Rolling Stones are going to be scalping their own tickets. What legislation is going to prevent that?

I doubt they are personally involved since their guarantees are so high to begin with. But I suspect the promoters are heavily involved and that the Stones have chosen to look the other way, possibly even contracted to do so.

It would be nice to see them take a stance on the issue, their involvement could really make a difference. It would be a GREAT addition to their legacy if they were able to help stop the madness. peace

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: February 25, 2015 23:00

Quote
Dan
Quote
paulywaul
Quote
grzegorz67
Keep on it Paulywaul, I'm woth you 100% I refuse to use these 2mdaty sites, even if it means missing a show.

I'm a bit more pragmatic, I use the secondary market because regrettably I occasionally have no choice ...... in other words I've not been successful at getting what I wanted in the first 30 seconds (typically) of when things go on sale with the primary vendor.

Which is actually the worst time to be buying tickets

It depends, I completely agree. I have scored amazing things in those first 30 seconds on occasions, then again I've got nothing of any use at all and subsequently got amazing things much later in the day (still with say Ticketmaster or Seetickets as primary ticket agencies) without having to resort to the secondary bandits. After a while, through sheer trial and error and a good share of both successes and dismal failures, you begin to learn when to ignore and leave what you're offered, when to buy, when to just forget about it until much closer to the date ....... you basically learn "tricks of the trade" as it were.

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: Dan ()
Date: February 25, 2015 23:08

Quote
Naturalust
Quote
Dan
Quote
Naturalust
Quote
paulywaul
Quote
Naturalust
A spokesperson for Ticketmaster told us: "Fans are demanding better access to tickets, with greater levels of choice and flexibility; recent research having shown that 80% of the British public want the right to resell tickets."

Wtf? Sounds like total BS to me. The British public want to resell their tickets? I'm pretty sure most of them just want to be able to buy decent seats at face value.

It would be great to take one Stones concert and have total visibility over who got all the tickets on the day of sale. Some estimates are that 80+% of them go to resellers. If true that is absurd! peace

Well they would come out with statements like that, wouldn't they ? The irrefutable fact of the matter is quite simply this, the secondary market has cooked its own goose, and is now going to get reined in a little bit. Had to happen ... and it now finally has. It was a long time coming but it was inevitable.

Unfortunately, I don't see any changes happening in time for this summer's tour. It will interesting to revisit the issue and see just how many of us had to bite the bullet to get decent seats. It almost seems like poising over the keyboard on the secondary websites is more likely to produce results that the primary seller websites. I'm not giving in yet and thanks paulywaul for sharing your well intended passion on this issue. peace


Yes, the Rolling Stones are going to be scalping their own tickets. What legislation is going to prevent that?

I doubt they are personally involved since their guarantees are so high to begin with. But I suspect the promoters are heavily involved and that the Stones have chosen to look the other way, possibly even contracted to do so.

It would be nice to see them take a stance on the issue, their involvement could really make a difference. It would be a GREAT addition to their legacy if they were able to help stop the madness. peace


Bands scalp their own tickets. It serves a dual purpose. Not only are they appropriately compensated the full amount people are going to pay but it also makes those full priced tickets at the rear of the floor or lower bowl look like a bargain in comparison.

Remember, the band controls the distribution of tickets. The promoter or Ticketmaster sells what they are told to and when. There's the Shelly Lazar stack the promoter never sees for instance. So in addition to selling those $99 first ten rows (thinking 2005 prices) to their own VIP's they could also be selling them out the back door for whatever price the market bears.

But I wouldn't expect the band who led the charge to the prices we see across the board for everything today to take any sort of stand on this issue.

And a huge chunk, as high as 50%, of StubHub tickets go below face value.

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: March 5, 2015 09:32

YAY !!

At f***ing last !! thumbs up cool smiley

[www.bbc.co.uk]

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: March 5, 2015 09:39

[appgticketabuse.wordpress.com]

[www.theguardian.com]

cool smiley thumbs up hot smiley

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: March 5, 2015 10:09

[www.dailymail.co.uk]

[www.telegraph.co.uk]

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: March 5, 2015 10:10

VICTORY !! hot smiley hot smiley hot smiley

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: March 5, 2015 10:49

Culture secrertary agrees to proposal that fans must be told exact details of their ticket when they make a purchase

When new bill becomes law, you’ll have to be told all your ticket details.

The secondary ticketing market, which allows fans to resell unwanted gig tickets, will become more transparent and potentially safer to use, after the government agreed on 24 February to back legislation that seeks to protect fans from fraud. The proposals also aim to counter the issue of professional touts buying tickets in bulk and reselling them at inflated prices through secondary ticketing agencies.

The proposals, collected together in an amendment to the consumer rights bill tabled by Conservative peer Lord Moynihan, will ensure that fans buying tickets from reselling companies such as Viagogo, Stubhub and Seatwave will know the precise details of the ticket they are purchasing (row, seat, face value, age restrictions, its original seller) – currently not legally required – helping to stamp out the sale of both counterfeit tickets and speculative tickets being sold on the secondary market sometimes before they’re commercially available from event organisers.

Speaking to the Guardian, Moynihan said: “One of the major reasons why you can’t get tickets for high-demand events as a member of the public is because there’s specialised software available to touts which sweeps up the supply within a nanosecond of them going on sale. Then those tickets are made available on the secondary market at sometimes five or 10 times the price. From now on that process is restricted, because you have to have the seat number, row number and so on.

The amendment, to be enacted when the consumer rights bill becomes law within the next three months, also requires ticket reselling companies to report criminal activity and puts a duty on the culture secretary to review the entire secondary ticketing market in 12 months and report back to parliament.

The new legislation, called “light-touch regulation” in a House of Lords debate on 24 February, marks a victory for “put fans first” campaigners and a U-turn for the government. The culture secretary, Sajid Javid, had rejected an initial Lords amendment to the bill in the Commons and opposed reform in the run up to the debate. He had said it could “overburden fans with red tape” and insisted those who sold on tickets were “classic entrepreneurs”.

Mike Weatherley MP, co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) on Secondary Ticketing, welcomed the proposals, saying: “This has been a long-standing campaign by the APPG to get some overdue changes in place. The free market system has broken down due to the introduction of ‘bots’ and other factors, enabling, on occasions, obscene profiteering for intermediaries against the interest of fans and the wishes of those putting on the event.”

He added: “While the new amendment does not cover every change that we had hoped for, it is an important step in the right direction. I believe that the statutory review on this issue is important and I look forward to seeing if further changes need to made in the future.”


Concerns, however, were raised in the Lords about the implications of the legislation, particularly by Tory peer Lord Borwick. “This recently tabled amendment … could actually allow consumers to be ripped off under the guise of protecting them. All the tickets which the sports and music bodies are concerned about will now go back to being sold in pubs, clubs and car parks, where no consumer protection exists,” he said.

Borwick also expressed concerns about fans becoming accidentally criminalised by failing to give correct details of their tickets when using reselling platforms and whether the treatment of secondary ticketing is “out of step” with other online markets.

Secondary ticketing firms reacted unhappily to the government’s change of heart. A spokesperson for StubHub told the Financial Times that the bill “challenges the ability to have an open and transparent marketplace … It’s not great for our business or great news for our consumers.” She said StubHub would be seeing whether the proposal complied with European law.

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: March 5, 2015 10:52

<<< Secondary ticketing firms reacted unhappily to the government’s change of heart >>>

O there's a surprise then !!

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: SimonN ()
Date: March 5, 2015 10:53

Hi PW,

Undoubtedly this is great, if unexpected news! I reserve hanging out the bunting until I see if 'Event-Organisers' really will be able to cancel the tickets of tossers trying to punt them above face value.

So it's a cautious hurrah from me: a Moynihan-sized step in the right direction though!

Cheers,

Simon.

ps forgot to add that since the demise of Scarlet Mist, this site has been of use...
[www.twickets.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-05 10:55 by SimonN.

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: March 5, 2015 11:45

Cheers Simon, and see you in the RAH for the WHO and Wilko on the 26th.

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: SimonN ()
Date: March 5, 2015 11:59

Hi PW,

Yes indeed- a few IORRians going, I believe...

I'm in the [www.thequeensarmskensington.co.uk] from 4.30pm and then kicking the doors down of the RAH for 6.30pm, hah-hah!

Quite looking forward to this one!

Cheers,

Simon.

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: Nate ()
Date: March 5, 2015 12:50

A step in the right direction but im cautious.I would like to see it made law that you can only resell tickets at face value I think that's the only way to get rid of these disgusting rip off touts.

Nate thumbs up

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: March 5, 2015 13:48

Quote
Nate
A step in the right direction but im cautious.I would like to see it made law that you can only resell tickets at face value I think that's the only way to get rid of these disgusting rip off touts.

Nate thumbs up

For those of us that think this entire phenomenon needs legislation of some sort to curb its excesses and promote greater transparency, it is definitely a step in the right direction. I personally don't think we'll get to where we either need to be or want to be overnight, I think it will be a series of successive "further constraining measures" over a period of time ..... a "gradual tightening of the noose" if you wish to think of it like that.

We'll get there ..... thumbs up

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: Nate ()
Date: March 5, 2015 14:36

Quote
paulywaul
Quote
Nate
A step in the right direction but im cautious.I would like to see it made law that you can only resell tickets at face value I think that's the only way to get rid of these disgusting rip off touts.

Nate thumbs up

For those of us that think this entire phenomenon needs legislation of some sort to curb its excesses and promote greater transparency, it is definitely a step in the right direction. I personally don't think we'll get to where we either need to be or want to be overnight, I think it will be a series of successive "further constraining measures" over a period of time ..... a "gradual tightening of the noose" if you wish to think of it like that


We'll get there ..... thumbs up

Give me the rope I will gladly tighten that noose.

Nate >grinning smiley<

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: Dreamer ()
Date: March 5, 2015 14:39

Quote
paulywaul
VICTORY !! hot smiley hot smiley hot smiley

thumbs up

Always nice to see some result for a good cause!

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: odean73 ()
Date: March 5, 2015 15:42

Great news.

No doubt there will be a way around it, but fingers crossed that its heading in the right direction for us punters.

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: March 5, 2015 19:39

Quote
odean73
Great news.

No doubt there will be a way around it, but fingers crossed that its heading in the right direction for us punters.

Slowly slowly and little by little ... it is. The secondary ticketing companies will fight it all the way and squeal, but they've largely brought it upon themselves.

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

Re: The definitive SECONDARY MARKET thread
Posted by: paulywaul ()
Date: March 6, 2015 12:52

Quote
Nate
A step in the right direction but im cautious.I would like to see it made law that you can only resell tickets at face value I think that's the only way to get rid of these disgusting rip off touts.

Nate thumbs up

Someone earlier in this thread remarked that the primary ticket sellers (like Ticketmaster and Seetickets and AXS) are increasingly invisible and tragically virtually unknown by an increasing proportion of normal punters that just want to buy a ticket for something or other and attend, thinking that the likes of SEATWAVE, GETMEIN, VIAGOGO, STUBHUB actually ARE the primary outlets. That fact alone is representative of how pervasive these secondary sites have become, and to what extent the public is being conned and f***ed, and in large part it also accounts for why there has been an increasingly loud clamour from the public and a considerable number of artists and venues and why the government (albeit reluctantly) has been forced to react.

I long for the day when the noose is further tightened by the passing of a law outlawing reselling of tickets altogether at anything other than face value - that would in a single stroke as good as put them all out of business. Can't see it happening, but it would be good were it to happen. One can dream .....

[ I want to shout, but I can't hardly speak ]

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