BTW I reread John Perry's book about Exile and he has Taylor playing the second rhythm on RO and also the main guitar on Let It Loose! JP is a fine player himself (The Only Ones) so he had the technical knowledge to assess the playing styles but again he says it is more guess work than anything.

Bill Janovitz in his book also has Taylor on slide on RTJ and Soul Survivor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-07-25 20:38 by FP.

Soul Survivor is without a doubt Taylor. Listen to the heavy vibrato during the outro.

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FP

Do you think it is KR or MT playing slide on this instrumental of RTJ? To me it sounds like Taylor, I can't imagine Keith playing at this tempo on slide? If this is Taylor then I think he does play a few licks on RTJ. If this is Keith then I will agree RTJ is Keith.


[www.youtube.com]

Probably some joker who did the overdub at home. Too amateurish to be Taylor unless he drank 2 gallons of tequila.

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TheflyingDutchman

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FP

Do you think it is KR or MT playing slide on this instrumental of RTJ? To me it sounds like Taylor, I can't imagine Keith playing at this tempo on slide? If this is Taylor then I think he does play a few licks on RTJ. If this is Keith then I will agree RTJ is Keith.


[www.youtube.com]

Probably some joker who did the overdub at home. Too amateurish to be Taylor unless he drank 2 gallons of tequila.

Maybe the other Mick is playing the slide

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TravelinMan
Soul Survivor is without a doubt Taylor. Listen to the heavy vibrato during the outro.

Yes, I stand corrected.

Mathijs

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TheflyingDutchman

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FP

Do you think it is KR or MT playing slide on this instrumental of RTJ? To me it sounds like Taylor, I can't imagine Keith playing at this tempo on slide? If this is Taylor then I think he does play a few licks on RTJ. If this is Keith then I will agree RTJ is Keith.


[www.youtube.com]

Probably some joker who did the overdub at home. Too amateurish to be Taylor unless he drank 2 gallons of tequila.

Or he did loads of heroin...oh hang on? Seriously I think the playing it pretty cool? The intonation is a bit out and the guitar is a bit out of tune but I think there is some technique there?

Btw I remember Mathijs saying something like the electric guitar on Loving Cup couldn't be Taylor, unless he did it while really drunk and I was like "well yes maybe he was!". I mean we are talking about the most debauched recording session of all time

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan
Soul Survivor is without a doubt Taylor. Listen to the heavy vibrato during the outro.

Yes, I stand corrected.

Mathijs

A small victory for the Taylor fans

Could Jagger have played slide on any of the Exile sessions. He did play slide albeit 33 years later on a Bigger Bang. Ibet a lot of people thought it was Keith playing the rhythm guitars on Sway and Fingerprint File

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Taylor1
Could Jagger have played slide on any of the Exile sessions.

Very likely not, or just for fun, but nothing serious. Either Keith would have done it, or Mick Taylor.

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FP

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TheflyingDutchman

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FP

Do you think it is KR or MT playing slide on this instrumental of RTJ? To me it sounds like Taylor, I can't imagine Keith playing at this tempo on slide? If this is Taylor then I think he does play a few licks on RTJ. If this is Keith then I will agree RTJ is Keith.


[www.youtube.com]

Probably some joker who did the overdub at home. Too amateurish to be Taylor unless he drank 2 gallons of tequila.

Or he did loads of heroin...oh hang on? Seriously I think the playing it pretty cool? The intonation is a bit out and the guitar is a bit out of tune but I think there is some technique there?

Btw I remember Mathijs saying something like the electric guitar on Loving Cup couldn't be Taylor, unless he did it while really drunk and I was like "well yes maybe he was!". I mean we are talking about the most debauched recording session of all time

I think it's neither Taylor nor Richards. Seems some Stones fan to me who plays slide guitar, and uploaded it. He hits the lower notes quite precise, but they make no sense from a melodic point of view, a too low pitch. The higher ones are just horrible. And the guitar sound is cheap to my ears.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-07-27 21:35 by TheflyingDutchman.

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TheflyingDutchman

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Taylor1
Could Jagger have played slide on any of the Exile sessions.

Very likely not, or just for fun, but nothing serious. Either Keith would have done it, or Mick Taylor.

John Lennon visited them at Keith’s house while they were recording Exile, maybe he snuck in and played

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TheflyingDutchman

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FP

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TheflyingDutchman

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FP

Do you think it is KR or MT playing slide on this instrumental of RTJ? To me it sounds like Taylor, I can't imagine Keith playing at this tempo on slide? If this is Taylor then I think he does play a few licks on RTJ. If this is Keith then I will agree RTJ is Keith.


[www.youtube.com]

Probably some joker who did the overdub at home. Too amateurish to be Taylor unless he drank 2 gallons of tequila.

Or he did loads of heroin...oh hang on? Seriously I think the playing it pretty cool? The intonation is a bit out and the guitar is a bit out of tune but I think there is some technique there?

Btw I remember Mathijs saying something like the electric guitar on Loving Cup couldn't be Taylor, unless he did it while really drunk and I was like "well yes maybe he was!". I mean we are talking about the most debauched recording session of all time

I think it's neither Taylor nor Richards. Seems some Stones fan to me who plays slide guitar, and uploaded it. He hits the lower notes quite precise, but they make no sense from a melodic point of view, a too low pitch. The higher ones are just horrible. And the guitar sound is cheap to my ears.

I think it’s Keith Richards and he’s doing the high part as a cue for the horns to come in. He then simplified the slide part for the record.

I read some of the comments and everyone takes it so seriously, The song is fun and I love it. If it sounds good I'll listen. I can't stand all tis over analyzation. It's a good tune turn it up loud!

Star Star is a dated product of its time to a point, lyrically - the names in the song.

Yet easily transferred to current times.

Musically? Timeless.

I love her!
[youtu.be]

Weirdly the record is in the key of F, but they played it in ‘73 and ‘77 in E. I’m wondering if they sped the tape up to take up less space on the record a la Fingerprint File.

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TravelinMan

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TheflyingDutchman

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FP

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TheflyingDutchman

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FP

Do you think it is KR or MT playing slide on this instrumental of RTJ? To me it sounds like Taylor, I can't imagine Keith playing at this tempo on slide? If this is Taylor then I think he does play a few licks on RTJ. If this is Keith then I will agree RTJ is Keith.


[www.youtube.com]

Probably some joker who did the overdub at home. Too amateurish to be Taylor unless he drank 2 gallons of tequila.

Or he did loads of heroin...oh hang on? Seriously I think the playing it pretty cool? The intonation is a bit out and the guitar is a bit out of tune but I think there is some technique there?

Btw I remember Mathijs saying something like the electric guitar on Loving Cup couldn't be Taylor, unless he did it while really drunk and I was like "well yes maybe he was!". I mean we are talking about the most debauched recording session of all time

I think it's neither Taylor nor Richards. Seems some Stones fan to me who plays slide guitar, and uploaded it. He hits the lower notes quite precise, but they make no sense from a melodic point of view, a too low pitch. The higher ones are just horrible. And the guitar sound is cheap to my ears.

I think it’s Keith Richards and he’s doing the high part as a cue for the horns to come in. He then simplified the slide part for the record.

I've found a couple different versions of it and it's consistent, Rip and that slide.

Listening to the instrumental version of Rocks Off, which I haven't listened to in ages, now makes sense why Taylor only comes in at the end on the album version!

Picking the bones out of Exile has never been easy !

I think that's partly why I love that damn record so much

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TravelinMan
Weirdly the record is in the key of F, but they played it in ‘73 and ‘77 in E. I’m wondering if they sped the tape up to take up less space on the record a la Fingerprint File.

The Stones have done that with several song, i.e. they dropped the key down by a half or whole tone. Obviously better to sing for Mick avoiding voice fatigue or even vocal cord problems. Other examples are "Happy" (from B down to A), "Beast Of Burden" (whole tone down) or lately "Angry" (half a tone) or "Whole Wide World" (half a tone lower).

Star Star was a contoversial song for audiences that understood english. For the public that didn't it was a great rock and roll song. In 1973 rock and roll was kept alive through Glam rock music and bands like the Stones that stayed connected with the roots of R&R.
For me StarStar is a great song that reaffirmed where the Stones stood on the spectrum of pop/rock music away from the prog and close the blues; the good place to be at, son!

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Meise

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TravelinMan
Weirdly the record is in the key of F, but they played it in ‘73 and ‘77 in E. I’m wondering if they sped the tape up to take up less space on the record a la Fingerprint File.

The Stones have done that with several song, i.e. they dropped the key down by a half or whole tone. Obviously better to sing for Mick avoiding voice fatigue or even vocal cord problems. Other examples are "Happy" (from B down to A), "Beast Of Burden" (whole tone down) or lately "Angry" (half a tone) or "Whole Wide World" (half a tone lower).

Yes, and that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is writing the song in F in the first place.

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TravelinMan

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Meise

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TravelinMan
Weirdly the record is in the key of F, but they played it in ‘73 and ‘77 in E. I’m wondering if they sped the tape up to take up less space on the record a la Fingerprint File.

The Stones have done that with several song, i.e. they dropped the key down by a half or whole tone. Obviously better to sing for Mick avoiding voice fatigue or even vocal cord problems. Other examples are "Happy" (from B down to A), "Beast Of Burden" (whole tone down) or lately "Angry" (half a tone) or "Whole Wide World" (half a tone lower).

Yes, and that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is writing the song in F in the first place.

Well, sure it does. LOL there's no law that says ALL BLUES BASED CHUCK BERRY CHUGGERS MUST BE IN A or whatever. Perhaps they made a note to purposely use a different key because so many chuggers are in E or A or even E ones transposed to B (IORR is a perfect example, although, I think someone said this eons ago, that was more to do with Keith making it "his" imprint). It doesn't sound sped up. That's a whole step. That would be quite noticeable.

In F there's a tonality aligned with C, plus no open strings on chords (in this particular guitar playing), so you get a "tighter" sound. Under My Thumb and Gimme Shelter are in C# - that's quite odd for a rock'n'roll band, but both play around with B and A chords so they aren't too far out there. There's a way to roam around with quite different chords when in E for a ballad, like Ab minor to C# minor, at times making the Ab a major even to give it a bit of edge, which can lead to a B minor to a B 7th... lots of room.

Chuck Berry style songs don't exactly have a lot of room in that aspect (and are in A# quite often it seems, as Keith said about Johnnie Johnson, piano keys, in this case, the black keys that are sharps or flats, which is why Chuck wasn't Chuck Berry without Johnnie) so perhaps by putting it in a wonky key creates "something different" for them.

Mick wrote it. Maybe he wrote it on piano. I've never seen anything specifically about its writing other than Keith saying "That's all Mick" or whatever. Which is quite funny because it sounds like something Keith would do in his sleep.

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GasLightStreet

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TravelinMan

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Meise

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TravelinMan
Weirdly the record is in the key of F, but they played it in ‘73 and ‘77 in E. I’m wondering if they sped the tape up to take up less space on the record a la Fingerprint File.

The Stones have done that with several song, i.e. they dropped the key down by a half or whole tone. Obviously better to sing for Mick avoiding voice fatigue or even vocal cord problems. Other examples are "Happy" (from B down to A), "Beast Of Burden" (whole tone down) or lately "Angry" (half a tone) or "Whole Wide World" (half a tone lower).

Yes, and that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is writing the song in F in the first place.

Well, sure it does. LOL there's no law that says ALL BLUES BASED CHUCK BERRY CHUGGERS MUST BE IN A or whatever. Perhaps they made a note to purposely use a different key because so many chuggers are in E or A or even E ones transposed to B (IORR is a perfect example, although, I think someone said this eons ago, that was more to do with Keith making it "his" imprint). It doesn't sound sped up. That's a whole step. That would be quite noticeable.

In F there's a tonality aligned with C, plus no open strings on chords (in this particular guitar playing), so you get a "tighter" sound. Under My Thumb and Gimme Shelter are in C# - that's quite odd for a rock'n'roll band, but both play around with B and A chords so they aren't too far out there. There's a way to roam around with quite different chords when in E for a ballad, like Ab minor to C# minor, at times making the Ab a major even to give it a bit of edge, which can lead to a B minor to a B 7th... lots of room.

Chuck Berry style songs don't exactly have a lot of room in that aspect (and are in A# quite often it seems, as Keith said about Johnnie Johnson, piano keys, in this case, the black keys that are sharps or flats, which is why Chuck wasn't Chuck Berry without Johnnie) so perhaps by putting it in a wonky key creates "something different" for them.

Mick wrote it. Maybe he wrote it on piano. I've never seen anything specifically about its writing other than Keith saying "That's all Mick" or whatever. Which is quite funny because it sounds like something Keith would do in his sleep.

E to F is a half step.

Fingerprint File was sped up

Oh, right.

I've gotten frustrated with, when sitting in with someone and they say I'm tuned down a step, I always think it's a step down but, actually, it's a half step.

So I burned it in my head, E to E flat is a step because I've gotta tune down and... when other people say 'step' you go, oh, one fret, when actually it's two but they don't know that but I got used to hearing that so... but then they use a capo on some songs and... it can get frustrating.

Playing along with the Stones studio recordings [or with many other bands for that matter] has often required some tedious fiddling with your tuners.

There was usually some kind of jiggery pokery going on with the recording.

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FP
BTW I reread John Perry's book about Exile and he has Taylor playing the second rhythm on RO and also the main guitar on Let It Loose! JP is a fine player himself (The Only Ones) so he had the technical knowledge to assess the playing styles but again he says it is more guess work than anything.

Bill Janovitz in his book also has Taylor on slide on RTJ and Soul Survivor.

Maybe he wrote that before the Hopkins-tapes were released? On those tapes we heard for the first time that Taylor played along through the song on a third track.

Let It Loose is just plain wrong.

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GasLightStreet

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TravelinMan

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Meise

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TravelinMan
Weirdly the record is in the key of F, but they played it in ‘73 and ‘77 in E. I’m wondering if they sped the tape up to take up less space on the record a la Fingerprint File.

The Stones have done that with several song, i.e. they dropped the key down by a half or whole tone. Obviously better to sing for Mick avoiding voice fatigue or even vocal cord problems. Other examples are "Happy" (from B down to A), "Beast Of Burden" (whole tone down) or lately "Angry" (half a tone) or "Whole Wide World" (half a tone lower).

Yes, and that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is writing the song in F in the first place.

Well, sure it does. LOL there's no law that says ALL BLUES BASED CHUCK BERRY CHUGGERS MUST BE IN A or whatever. Perhaps they made a note to purposely use a different key because so many chuggers are in E or A or even E ones transposed to B (IORR is a perfect example, although, I think someone said this eons ago, that was more to do with Keith making it "his" imprint). It doesn't sound sped up. That's a whole step. That would be quite noticeable.

In F there's a tonality aligned with C, plus no open strings on chords (in this particular guitar playing), so you get a "tighter" sound. Under My Thumb and Gimme Shelter are in C# - that's quite odd for a rock'n'roll band, but both play around with B and A chords so they aren't too far out there. There's a way to roam around with quite different chords when in E for a ballad, like Ab minor to C# minor, at times making the Ab a major even to give it a bit of edge, which can lead to a B minor to a B 7th... lots of room.

Chuck Berry style songs don't exactly have a lot of room in that aspect (and are in A# quite often it seems, as Keith said about Johnnie Johnson, piano keys, in this case, the black keys that are sharps or flats, which is why Chuck wasn't Chuck Berry without Johnnie) so perhaps by putting it in a wonky key creates "something different" for them.

Mick wrote it. Maybe he wrote it on piano. I've never seen anything specifically about its writing other than Keith saying "That's all Mick" or whatever. Which is quite funny because it sounds like something Keith would do in his sleep.

Agreed with the tonality, to me it sounds like they recorded it in F. It gets a bit more oomph than in E. The boogie pattern in F is all played on the 8th position, and I don't hear any open string licks or riffs you would expect and that Keith plays live in E.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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GasLightStreet

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TravelinMan

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Meise

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TravelinMan
Weirdly the record is in the key of F, but they played it in ‘73 and ‘77 in E. I’m wondering if they sped the tape up to take up less space on the record a la Fingerprint File.

The Stones have done that with several song, i.e. they dropped the key down by a half or whole tone. Obviously better to sing for Mick avoiding voice fatigue or even vocal cord problems. Other examples are "Happy" (from B down to A), "Beast Of Burden" (whole tone down) or lately "Angry" (half a tone) or "Whole Wide World" (half a tone lower).

Yes, and that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is writing the song in F in the first place.

Well, sure it does. LOL there's no law that says ALL BLUES BASED CHUCK BERRY CHUGGERS MUST BE IN A or whatever. Perhaps they made a note to purposely use a different key because so many chuggers are in E or A or even E ones transposed to B (IORR is a perfect example, although, I think someone said this eons ago, that was more to do with Keith making it "his" imprint). It doesn't sound sped up. That's a whole step. That would be quite noticeable.

In F there's a tonality aligned with C, plus no open strings on chords (in this particular guitar playing), so you get a "tighter" sound. Under My Thumb and Gimme Shelter are in C# - that's quite odd for a rock'n'roll band, but both play around with B and A chords so they aren't too far out there. There's a way to roam around with quite different chords when in E for a ballad, like Ab minor to C# minor, at times making the Ab a major even to give it a bit of edge, which can lead to a B minor to a B 7th... lots of room.

Chuck Berry style songs don't exactly have a lot of room in that aspect (and are in A# quite often it seems, as Keith said about Johnnie Johnson, piano keys, in this case, the black keys that are sharps or flats, which is why Chuck wasn't Chuck Berry without Johnnie) so perhaps by putting it in a wonky key creates "something different" for them.

Mick wrote it. Maybe he wrote it on piano. I've never seen anything specifically about its writing other than Keith saying "That's all Mick" or whatever. Which is quite funny because it sounds like something Keith would do in his sleep.

Agreed with the tonality, to me it sounds like they recorded it in F. It gets a bit more oomph than in E. The boogie pattern in F is all played on the 8th position, and I don't hear any open string licks or riffs you would expect and that Keith plays live in E.

Mathijs

Side note: there's an article from the time:

Jagger arrived, and they started working on an excellent song written by Taylor, with Chuck Berry-ish rhythm guitar from Richard. The title: '@#$%&'. Jagger explained: "It's your groupie song, innit?". He said he wanted suitable "clean" lyrics for it, to get radio airplay.

'@#$%&' went from an all-out, frantic rock and roll arrangement to a sort of 'Tumbling Dice' tempo, with extra punch at the chorus. At one point the band ran through it together, and later it was decided that only Richard and Watts would play for the first verse.


Make of that as you wish.

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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GasLightStreet

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TravelinMan

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Meise

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TravelinMan
Weirdly the record is in the key of F, but they played it in ‘73 and ‘77 in E. I’m wondering if they sped the tape up to take up less space on the record a la Fingerprint File.

The Stones have done that with several song, i.e. they dropped the key down by a half or whole tone. Obviously better to sing for Mick avoiding voice fatigue or even vocal cord problems. Other examples are "Happy" (from B down to A), "Beast Of Burden" (whole tone down) or lately "Angry" (half a tone) or "Whole Wide World" (half a tone lower).

Yes, and that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is writing the song in F in the first place.

Well, sure it does. LOL there's no law that says ALL BLUES BASED CHUCK BERRY CHUGGERS MUST BE IN A or whatever. Perhaps they made a note to purposely use a different key because so many chuggers are in E or A or even E ones transposed to B (IORR is a perfect example, although, I think someone said this eons ago, that was more to do with Keith making it "his" imprint). It doesn't sound sped up. That's a whole step. That would be quite noticeable.

In F there's a tonality aligned with C, plus no open strings on chords (in this particular guitar playing), so you get a "tighter" sound. Under My Thumb and Gimme Shelter are in C# - that's quite odd for a rock'n'roll band, but both play around with B and A chords so they aren't too far out there. There's a way to roam around with quite different chords when in E for a ballad, like Ab minor to C# minor, at times making the Ab a major even to give it a bit of edge, which can lead to a B minor to a B 7th... lots of room.

Chuck Berry style songs don't exactly have a lot of room in that aspect (and are in A# quite often it seems, as Keith said about Johnnie Johnson, piano keys, in this case, the black keys that are sharps or flats, which is why Chuck wasn't Chuck Berry without Johnnie) so perhaps by putting it in a wonky key creates "something different" for them.

Mick wrote it. Maybe he wrote it on piano. I've never seen anything specifically about its writing other than Keith saying "That's all Mick" or whatever. Which is quite funny because it sounds like something Keith would do in his sleep.

Agreed with the tonality, to me it sounds like they recorded it in F. It gets a bit more oomph than in E. The boogie pattern in F is all played on the 8th position, and I don't hear any open string licks or riffs you would expect and that Keith plays live in E.

Mathijs

Side note: there's an article from the time:

Jagger arrived, and they started working on an excellent song written by Taylor, with Chuck Berry-ish rhythm guitar from Richard. The title: '@#$%&'. Jagger explained: "It's your groupie song, innit?". He said he wanted suitable "clean" lyrics for it, to get radio airplay.

'@#$%&' went from an all-out, frantic rock and roll arrangement to a sort of 'Tumbling Dice' tempo, with extra punch at the chorus. At one point the band ran through it together, and later it was decided that only Richard and Watts would play for the first verse.


Make of that as you wish.

A load of bollocks, that article.

@#$%& is all Mick's. Keith Richards, 1973


I just wrote it... That's real, and if girls can do that, I can certainly write about it, because it's what I see. I'm not saying all women are star-@#$%&, but I see an awful lot of them, and so I wrote a song called that. Mick Jagger, 1978

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-09-09 19:26 by Mathijs.