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FPQuote
automaticchangerQuote
FP
Yes that's what I'm saying,there is no evidence of a Taylor rhythm guitar on Rock's Off. Mathijs was suggesting that rhythm parts were wiped from RO and RTJ but I don't hear evidence on any source that MT ever played a rhythm part on either.
The Exhibitionism show had multitracks of a few songs available at a listening station - IORR member mrpaulincanada recorded them:
[we.tl]
One of the tracks is Taylor's isolated rhythm part, which remains in the final mix, buried in the centre with Keith's two rhythm parts panned left (the original) and right (overdub).
Thanks very much this, really appreciated! yes this Taylor part is the one I mean. But it is not a rhythm part, it is melodic fills, some of it almost sounds like Hawaiian guitar.
Sorry if this sounds amazingly anal but my point with Mathijs was simply that he seemed to imply that Taylor's rhythm guitar style clashed with Keith in general and specifically on Exile (I may be misunderstanding him though) leading Keith to wipe Taylor's rhythm parts.
My point was that what Taylor plays on RO is not a rhythm part, it is chordal embellishments, extensions and inversions of chords.
I say this as I have played guitar for many years and worked out plenty of Stones parts so perhaps I look at this more technically
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DandelionPowdermanQuote
TravelinManQuote
DandelionPowderman
All guitars are slide on Ventilator Blues.
There is an acoustic which just comps chords as well as the main electric slide, what sounds like a resonator slide, and then the lead that comes in about halfway.
Isn't it also doubling the riff with slide at times?
I was speaking about in the studio.So Fight.Hoodoo Blues is from a blues album so of course there would be slide.So Fight and Till The Next Goodbye,2songs in 50 years.Neither sounds like the slide work on the Exile tracks.Can you explain to me how Taylor’s slide playing on Good Time Women and You Got to Move have characteristics that would preclude his playing slide on some of those Exile tracks.It sounds more like the slide on those Exile tracks than Keith ever played before or after.Please show me a track of Keith playing slide not from Exile where Keith sounds like that.Quote
DandelionPowderman
<.It seems strange that Keith in the next 50 years from when Exile was recorded he never played slide again except for Till the Next Goodbye? His slide playing is only on Let it Bleed and Beggars>
Very strange indeed, because it's not true.
Listen to his solo on Fight, for instance. And Hoodoo Blues.
He continued to play slide on Happy in concert throughout the 1978-tour.
And I'm sure you've heard him play slide on Little Red Rooster on LYL and El Mocambo.
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automaticchangerQuote
FPQuote
automaticchangerQuote
FP
Yes that's what I'm saying,there is no evidence of a Taylor rhythm guitar on Rock's Off. Mathijs was suggesting that rhythm parts were wiped from RO and RTJ but I don't hear evidence on any source that MT ever played a rhythm part on either.
The Exhibitionism show had multitracks of a few songs available at a listening station - IORR member mrpaulincanada recorded them:
[we.tl]
One of the tracks is Taylor's isolated rhythm part, which remains in the final mix, buried in the centre with Keith's two rhythm parts panned left (the original) and right (overdub).
Thanks very much this, really appreciated! yes this Taylor part is the one I mean. But it is not a rhythm part, it is melodic fills, some of it almost sounds like Hawaiian guitar.
Sorry if this sounds amazingly anal but my point with Mathijs was simply that he seemed to imply that Taylor's rhythm guitar style clashed with Keith in general and specifically on Exile (I may be misunderstanding him though) leading Keith to wipe Taylor's rhythm parts.
My point was that what Taylor plays on RO is not a rhythm part, it is chordal embellishments, extensions and inversions of chords.
I say this as I have played guitar for many years and worked out plenty of Stones parts so perhaps I look at this more technically
Ah, I understand your point now, I was misinterpreting before and thought you meant 'no rhythm' = 'no audible part'. In a way his part reminds me of what someone like Billy would've done on keyboards.
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Taylor1I was speaking about in the studio.So Fight.Hoodoo Blues is from a blues album so of course there would be slide.So Fight and Till The Next Goodbye,2songs in 50 years.Neither sounds like the slide work on the Exile tracks.Can you explain to me how Taylor’s slide playing on Good Time Women and You Got to Move have characteristics that would preclude his playing slide on some of those Exile tracks.It sounds more like the slide on those Exile tracks than Keith ever played before or after.Please show me a track of Keith playing slide not from Exile where Keith sounds like that.Quote
DandelionPowderman
<.It seems strange that Keith in the next 50 years from when Exile was recorded he never played slide again except for Till the Next Goodbye? His slide playing is only on Let it Bleed and Beggars>
Very strange indeed, because it's not true.
Listen to his solo on Fight, for instance. And Hoodoo Blues.
He continued to play slide on Happy in concert throughout the 1978-tour.
And I'm sure you've heard him play slide on Little Red Rooster on LYL and El Mocambo.
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Taylor1I was speaking about in the studio.So Fight.Hoodoo Blues is from a blues album so of course there would be slide.So Fight and Till The Next Goodbye,2songs in 50 years.Neither sounds like the slide work on the Exile tracks.Can you explain to me how Taylor’s slide playing on Good Time Women and You Got to Move have characteristics that would preclude his playing slide on some of those Exile tracks.It sounds more like the slide on those Exile tracks than Keith ever played before or after.Please show me a track of Keith playing slide not from Exile where Keith sounds like that.Quote
DandelionPowderman
<.It seems strange that Keith in the next 50 years from when Exile was recorded he never played slide again except for Till the Next Goodbye? His slide playing is only on Let it Bleed and Beggars>
Very strange indeed, because it's not true.
Listen to his solo on Fight, for instance. And Hoodoo Blues.
He continued to play slide on Happy in concert throughout the 1978-tour.
And I'm sure you've heard him play slide on Little Red Rooster on LYL and El Mocambo.
Really? You told me this before.Whereis the heavy Taylor vibrato on You Gotta Move?Hey what about Taylor’s slide guitar on Stevie Wonders I Don’t Know Why.Explain to me where the heavy vibrato is there.So Keith played with no vibrato on the Let it Bleed album onsongs like Love in Vain? I don’t know guitars like you, so explain to me where the heavy vibrato is on You Gotta Move, Good Time Women, I Don’t Know Why.Explain what type of vibrato Keith plays with on Let it Bleed tracks like Monkey Man. There is no vibrato on Midnight Rambler on Let it Bleed,is that right?. Again, I’m just a layperson when it comes to guitarsQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Taylor1I was speaking about in the studio.So Fight.Hoodoo Blues is from a blues album so of course there would be slide.So Fight and Till The Next Goodbye,2songs in 50 years.Neither sounds like the slide work on the Exile tracks.Can you explain to me how Taylor’s slide playing on Good Time Women and You Got to Move have characteristics that would preclude his playing slide on some of those Exile tracks.It sounds more like the slide on those Exile tracks than Keith ever played before or after.Please show me a track of Keith playing slide not from Exile where Keith sounds like that.Quote
DandelionPowderman
<.It seems strange that Keith in the next 50 years from when Exile was recorded he never played slide again except for Till the Next Goodbye? His slide playing is only on Let it Bleed and Beggars>
Very strange indeed, because it's not true.
Listen to his solo on Fight, for instance. And Hoodoo Blues.
He continued to play slide on Happy in concert throughout the 1978-tour.
And I'm sure you've heard him play slide on Little Red Rooster on LYL and El Mocambo.
I have told you this before: They are very easy to separate. Taylor plays slide with a heavy vibrato, while Keith plays without vibrato (Like on Happy and other Exile-numbers).
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Taylor1Really? You told me this before.Whereis the heavy Taylor vibrato on You Gotta Move?Hey what about Taylor’s slide guitar on Stevie Wonders I Don’t Know Why.Explain to me where the heavy vibrato is there.So Keith played with no vibrato on the Let it Bleed album onsongs like Love in Vain? I don’t know guitars like you, so explain to me where the heavy vibrato is on You Gotta Move, Good Time Women, I Don’t Know Why.Explain what type of vibrato Keith plays with on Let it Bleed tracks like Monkey Man. There is no vibrato on Midnight Rambler on Let it Bleed,is that right?. Again, I’m just a layperson when it comes to guitarsQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Taylor1I was speaking about in the studio.So Fight.Hoodoo Blues is from a blues album so of course there would be slide.So Fight and Till The Next Goodbye,2songs in 50 years.Neither sounds like the slide work on the Exile tracks.Can you explain to me how Taylor’s slide playing on Good Time Women and You Got to Move have characteristics that would preclude his playing slide on some of those Exile tracks.It sounds more like the slide on those Exile tracks than Keith ever played before or after.Please show me a track of Keith playing slide not from Exile where Keith sounds like that.Quote
DandelionPowderman
<.It seems strange that Keith in the next 50 years from when Exile was recorded he never played slide again except for Till the Next Goodbye? His slide playing is only on Let it Bleed and Beggars>
Very strange indeed, because it's not true.
Listen to his solo on Fight, for instance. And Hoodoo Blues.
He continued to play slide on Happy in concert throughout the 1978-tour.
And I'm sure you've heard him play slide on Little Red Rooster on LYL and El Mocambo.
I have told you this before: They are very easy to separate. Taylor plays slide with a heavy vibrato, while Keith plays without vibrato (Like on Happy and other Exile-numbers).
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DandelionPowdermanQuote
Taylor1Really? You told me this before.Whereis the heavy Taylor vibrato on You Gotta Move?Hey what about Taylor’s slide guitar on Stevie Wonders I Don’t Know Why.Explain to me where the heavy vibrato is there.So Keith played with no vibrato on the Let it Bleed album onsongs like Love in Vain? I don’t know guitars like you, so explain to me where the heavy vibrato is on You Gotta Move, Good Time Women, I Don’t Know Why.Explain what type of vibrato Keith plays with on Let it Bleed tracks like Monkey Man. There is no vibrato on Midnight Rambler on Let it Bleed,is that right?. Again, I’m just a layperson when it comes to guitarsQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Taylor1I was speaking about in the studio.So Fight.Hoodoo Blues is from a blues album so of course there would be slide.So Fight and Till The Next Goodbye,2songs in 50 years.Neither sounds like the slide work on the Exile tracks.Can you explain to me how Taylor’s slide playing on Good Time Women and You Got to Move have characteristics that would preclude his playing slide on some of those Exile tracks.It sounds more like the slide on those Exile tracks than Keith ever played before or after.Please show me a track of Keith playing slide not from Exile where Keith sounds like that.Quote
DandelionPowderman
<.It seems strange that Keith in the next 50 years from when Exile was recorded he never played slide again except for Till the Next Goodbye? His slide playing is only on Let it Bleed and Beggars>
Very strange indeed, because it's not true.
Listen to his solo on Fight, for instance. And Hoodoo Blues.
He continued to play slide on Happy in concert throughout the 1978-tour.
And I'm sure you've heard him play slide on Little Red Rooster on LYL and El Mocambo.
I have told you this before: They are very easy to separate. Taylor plays slide with a heavy vibrato, while Keith plays without vibrato (Like on Happy and other Exile-numbers).
Apart from TravelinMan's point: the choice of notes, which obviously are different, Keith as a slide player finds the notes, but cut them short (or let the notes ring a bit longer without moving the bottleneck, like on Love In Vain). Taylor, for instance on YGM, finds the notes and let them ring longer by moving the bottleneck slightly creating the vibrato and a more exciting sustain. This is also evident in their playing styles without slide.
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TheflyingDutchman
Didn't Mick Jagger say that "Keith wanted to protect his songs" in regard to Keith's relationship with Mick Taylor?
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TheflyingDutchman
I don't care that much who said it. Fact is that the musical interaction between Keith and Taylor was limited, and at the same time brilliant from both sides. Jagger more or less the referee.
Did Jagger take sides? Yes, because Taylor was unreliable and too young given the circumstances. Talented as hell though. Did Taylor use his potential? No.Too much time and too much money. Jagger and Richard kept on selling their product with (a little) help from their friends.
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TravelinMan
FP, I was thinking about this and Star Star is a perfect place for this because I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody told me Taylor or Richards played either guitar on this one. In a sense, it’s a perfect home for this discussion because it shows their skills can cross, like Bye Bye Johnny.
But why is it necessarily a better musical experience for the listener.Personally , I think this whole weaving stuff is nonsense. Personally I thought Ronnie and Keith were great in1975-1977 with little weavingQuote
FPQuote
TravelinMan
FP, I was thinking about this and Star Star is a perfect place for this because I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody told me Taylor or Richards played either guitar on this one. In a sense, it’s a perfect home for this discussion because it shows their skills can cross, like Bye Bye Johnny.
I think some players who work together a lot can start taking on the style of the other. You have said before Keith picked up stuff from MT and of course the other way round.
There is a Santana track called Song of the Wind were both Carlos and Neal Schon play solos but they are so similar in tone and style you would think
I feel Ronni and Keith took this to the next level on Some Girls where there is that level of telepathy in their weaving.
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TheflyingDutchman
I don't care that much who said it. Fact is that the musical interaction between Keith and Taylor was limited, and at the same time brilliant from both sides. Jagger more or less the referee.
Did Jagger take sides? Yes, because Taylor was unreliable and too young given the circumstances. Talented as hell though. Did Taylor use his potential? No.Too much time and too much money. Jagger and Richard kept on selling their product with (a little) help from their friends.
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FP
I think Travelin Man mentioned somewhere else that on Stones in Exile you can hear a demo of Taylor playing the riff on acoustic briefly. This is why we think Taylor plays the dobro part and also why he gets the writing credit. Keith plays the main electric part but Taylor double it on the dobro.
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MathijsQuote
FP
I think Travelin Man mentioned somewhere else that on Stones in Exile you can hear a demo of Taylor playing the riff on acoustic briefly. This is why we think Taylor plays the dobro part and also why he gets the writing credit. Keith plays the main electric part but Taylor double it on the dobro.
That's Keith playing the slide and the dobro.
And all guitars on Happy are Keith, as is the slide on Rip This Joint.
Keith plays slide much more straightforward, with less vibrato and sustain and often with more ghost notes. And his choice of notes is less rooted in the blues as Taylor does.
Mathijs
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TravelinManQuote
MathijsQuote
FP
I think Travelin Man mentioned somewhere else that on Stones in Exile you can hear a demo of Taylor playing the riff on acoustic briefly. This is why we think Taylor plays the dobro part and also why he gets the writing credit. Keith plays the main electric part but Taylor double it on the dobro.
That's Keith playing the slide and the dobro.
And all guitars on Happy are Keith, as is the slide on Rip This Joint.
Keith plays slide much more straightforward, with less vibrato and sustain and often with more ghost notes. And his choice of notes is less rooted in the blues as Taylor does.
Mathijs
Do you think Taylor’s lead on Casino Boogie and Ventilator were LA overdubs? He has a very biting tone on these tracks. What do you think the guitar/amp combo is?
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Mathijs
Turd On The Run – no Taylor
Mathijs
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MathijsQuote
TravelinManQuote
MathijsQuote
FP
I think Travelin Man mentioned somewhere else that on Stones in Exile you can hear a demo of Taylor playing the riff on acoustic briefly. This is why we think Taylor plays the dobro part and also why he gets the writing credit. Keith plays the main electric part but Taylor double it on the dobro.
That's Keith playing the slide and the dobro.
And all guitars on Happy are Keith, as is the slide on Rip This Joint.
Keith plays slide much more straightforward, with less vibrato and sustain and often with more ghost notes. And his choice of notes is less rooted in the blues as Taylor does.
Mathijs
Do you think Taylor’s lead on Casino Boogie and Ventilator were LA overdubs? He has a very biting tone on these tracks. What do you think the guitar/amp combo is?
I think these are all original Nellcote guitar tracks. Casino Boogie is a good example of Keith's slide playing. Until Taylor's lead guitar all guitars are by Richards, including the slide. This could be another example of where they both recorded original parts, then Richards wiping Taylor's part and adding the 4 or 5 new parts you hear on the released version.
I think the best guess for Taylor is the brown ES-355 through a Fender Deluxe Reverb and WEM Copycat that can be seen in pictures and seemed to have been his go-to equipment.
Mathijs
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liddasQuote
Mathijs
Turd On The Run – no Taylor
Mathijs
I know we discussed this years earlier, but I still think that the 2nd guitar that enters at the 1 min mark center left in the mix is Taylor.
C
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liddasQuote
Mathijs
Turd On The Run – no Taylor
Mathijs
I know we discussed this years earlier, but I still think that the 2nd guitar that enters at the 1 min mark center left in the mix is Taylor.
C
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Taylor1But why is it necessarily a better musical experience for the listener.Personally , I think this whole weaving stuff is nonsense. Personally I thought Ronnie and Keith were great in1975-1977 with little weavingQuote
FPQuote
TravelinMan
FP, I was thinking about this and Star Star is a perfect place for this because I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody told me Taylor or Richards played either guitar on this one. In a sense, it’s a perfect home for this discussion because it shows their skills can cross, like Bye Bye Johnny.
I think some players who work together a lot can start taking on the style of the other. You have said before Keith picked up stuff from MT and of course the other way round.
There is a Santana track called Song of the Wind were both Carlos and Neal Schon play solos but they are so similar in tone and style you would think
I feel Ronni and Keith took this to the next level on Some Girls where there is that level of telepathy in their weaving.
Quote
MathijsQuote
FP
I think Travelin Man mentioned somewhere else that on Stones in Exile you can hear a demo of Taylor playing the riff on acoustic briefly. This is why we think Taylor plays the dobro part and also why he gets the writing credit. Keith plays the main electric part but Taylor double it on the dobro.
That's Keith playing the slide and the dobro.
And all guitars on Happy are Keith, as is the slide on Rip This Joint.
Keith plays slide much more straightforward, with less vibrato and sustain and often with more ghost notes. And his choice of notes is less rooted in the blues as Taylor does.
Mathijs