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Yeah, I know ... this is a political subject and I shouldn't pursue it any further in this thread. But let me say: I do think songwriting is work and should be rewarded, but the amounts of money some people get for something they did 50 years ago is just too much, IMHO. Especially since songwriting credits are so arbitrary. And especially how copyright extends decades beyond the death of the creators. But I'm gonna stop right here.
Plus they worked together on Eric Clapton's No Reason To Cry album in '76.
Morris Levy figures prominently in a book about MCA Records' connection with the mafia: Stiffed: A True Story of MCA, the Music Business, and the Mafia
Overview at: [www.billknoedelseder.com]
Available at: [www.amazon.com]
There's lots of unintentional comedy in this book, which makes for quite an entertaining read--it's sort of Goodfellas meets One Trick Pony.
One of the most hilarious things in the book is after this mob guy, Sal Pisello, worms his way into MCA as a sales representative. His one "idea" is to market a break dancing accessory--which he calls "beak dancing mats". This guy is in his 60s, so he doesn't understand the spontaneity behind break dancing--how they just suddenly "break" into a dance on the sidewalk, say. So Pisello must be thinking, "Hey, that looks dangerous, doing that on the pavement, they should have a mat beneath them when they do that." Like someone who does break dancing is going to say, "Hey let me show you a few of my break dancing moves--but wait here, while I run home and get my break dancing mat. Be back in half an hour!"
Even more hilarious is that MCA actually sank good money into Pisello's "idea", as the book details how one of MCA's warehouse became loaded with boxes and boxes of "break dancing mats"--unsold and unused, of course. Just one of the ways in which MCA got "stiffed".
Pisello's real line of work was as a "broker" in MCA's "cut-out" record deal sales practices.
1986 Los Angeles Times article on Pisello by the author of Stiffed at: [articles.latimes.com]
But to be fair to Helm I've never met anyone associated with Bob that liked him
its because he's the neighborhood bully..
Haha, that made me laugh out loud!
I think I gotta grab this book.
Good old Morris! Did you read Tommy James' book?
[youtu.be]
Great book. Tommy's story is very interesting. Some of the guys were the "inspiration" for characters on The Sopranos.
"No Anchovies, Please"
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Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
LieB
()
Date: September 20, 2013 23:23
Quote
andrewmQuote
LieBQuote
71Tele
And yes, there's more money in publishing than in recording or performing, but I would say "want more publishing money? Write some hit songs!" Arranging is NOT writing!
I think it's unfair and sad that songwriting/publishing gives so much more money in the long run than performing and recording. The whole conflict between Levon and Robbie and so many other songwriters and bandmembers stems from this fact.
Sure, songwriting is a qualified job in a sense, but why don't I get any money for the hamburgers I served a decade ago....?
Because you didn't invent the hamburger, or some special kind of hamburger? Correct me if I'm wrong and you did.
I don't think it's unfair at all. What's that line about "10% inspiration, 90% perspiration"? It is work. It does take time and effort.
Yeah, I know ... this is a political subject and I shouldn't pursue it any further in this thread. But let me say: I do think songwriting is work and should be rewarded, but the amounts of money some people get for something they did 50 years ago is just too much, IMHO. Especially since songwriting credits are so arbitrary. And especially how copyright extends decades beyond the death of the creators. But I'm gonna stop right here.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: September 20, 2013 23:51
While it is true that it was common practice for all kinds of names to be given songwriting "credit" (Chuck Berry was forced to share a credit with Alan Freed, for example), the intent of the copyright laws as it relates to publishing is to reward the creator, the same way an inventor has a patent. A song is an original creation, where a performance is just a performance and an arrangement is just an arrangement. That said, there is a fine line of whether a distinguishing riff os part of songwriting or not (I say it depends on the riff). But I don't understand why so many people here continue to be confused between songwriting, and things like arranging. They may sometimes overlap, but they are fundamentally different, and valued differently. To put it bluntly, writing "Sympathy For The Devil" is valued differently from playing piano on the track. The compensation for the creation of the song should be more than for performing on a particular recording of that song.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
andrewm
()
Date: September 20, 2013 23:56
Fair enough, LieB. And I don't want to beat this to death but why should it matter how long ago the work was created? I'll admit I'm coming at this from the perspective of a songwriter myself and most songwriters never come remotely close to making a living from their work, as I'm sure you know. Anyway, I certainly agree that songwriting credits are very arbitrary. I'll stop now, too.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
LieB
()
Date: September 21, 2013 01:39
I the end, I guess it shouldn't matter how long ago a song was written. I just think it's kind of weird sometimes how someone can write a song and then sit back and do nothing more and rake in a lot of money if the song is popular. Like when Robbie Robertson made money when Levon Helm and Rick Danko played his songs in the 80s. But then again, where do you draw the line? Perhaps a song should fall into the public domain after 20 years.
The one thing I'm very resolute about is how copyright extends beyond a creator's death. It just ain't defensible when the creator obviously isn't alive to earn the money, when all that's left is some publishing company getting rich from other people's work (i.e. other people's performances).
Now I'll stop.
The one thing I'm very resolute about is how copyright extends beyond a creator's death. It just ain't defensible when the creator obviously isn't alive to earn the money, when all that's left is some publishing company getting rich from other people's work (i.e. other people's performances).
Now I'll stop.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
rob51
()
Date: September 21, 2013 05:34
Yeah. It had become obvious by that time how R. Robinson had screwed the rest of them and nobody was too pleased about the whole thing. Levon say's that by the time Martin Scorsezee? interviews him for the film he's about ready to take his head off and it's all he could do not to punch the guy out. He apperently was in on the screwing of the rest of the band members along with Robinson and none of them were any too friendly with either. If you recall, there's hardly any footage of Richard Manual at all in the film and it's been said that that wasn't by accident.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
rob51
()
Date: September 21, 2013 06:17
Ronnie and The Band were neighbors in LA at the time of the filming of The Last Waltz and that's probably why he was invited in the first place.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
rob51
()
Date: September 21, 2013 06:43
How the @#$%& do you figiure, Levon liked his money? There's absolutely no proof the Levon ever influenced the other menbers in any wayt when it came to money.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
rob51
()
Date: September 21, 2013 06:56
Cool name Coot but I don''t think you quite get it? Your observations seem off to me and your sense of facts totally off center.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
rob51
()
Date: September 21, 2013 07:07
Its funny but even though all three countries Canada, United States and Mexico are all American, nobody but those ones born and living between the bordrs of Canada and Mexico dare to call themselves American. That pisses me off actually! Why are you @#$%& born between those latitudes Mex and Canada allowed to call yourselves American but "I" born just north of that same latitude am by law to refer to myself as Canadian?
Theres also all of SOUTH AMERICA which seems to be fo5rgotten by most so called Americans as countries even worthy of consideration. Got to go now.
Theres also all of SOUTH AMERICA which seems to be fo5rgotten by most so called Americans as countries even worthy of consideration. Got to go now.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
loog droog
()
Date: September 21, 2013 07:44
Quote
rob51
Ronnie and The Band were neighbors in LA at the time of the filming of The Last Waltz and that's probably why he was invited in the first place.
Plus they worked together on Eric Clapton's No Reason To Cry album in '76.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
Aquamarine
()
Date: September 21, 2013 09:38
Speaking of Ronnie, I was just watching a doco on CNN about Prince William, and he was in THAT--is he everywhere??
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
TheGreek
()
Date: September 23, 2013 19:02
helm did not DISLIKE Dylan as you say , he did not like getting booed in concert because bob went electric , so the crowds were outraged at this and this did not sit well with helm who said im out of here . it's in helm's book (wheel on fire)Quote
DoomandGloomWell if he won then Duane Allmans' estate should sue for the Layla riff... These are difficult presidents to grab. In the Brill Building days (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brill_Building) songwriting credits were shared with agents and mob types even if they were not musicians. This is the world that Dylan learned from, where he held his rights like a crazy man... Robbie learned from this... stories during Planet Waves has Bob Dylan taking boxes of master tapes away from the studio after each session. He was that afraid the record company CBS would take and mix them before he was done. The engineers would confront Bob at bars as the tapes sat in his van outside in the dead of winter. Helm disliked Dylan and their early tours with Bob featured Kenny Buttrey as the drummer, he also played on Harvest and today is a unknown drumming hero. [www.gearslutz.com]. The musical relationship between Helm and The Band today seems like a no brainer in hindsight but these were volatile people who walked out on one another on numerous occasions. Richard Manuel was also a drummer and played on some of their recordings as well... Helm followed much the same path as Robbie after The Last Waltz, dipping into Hollywood. The LW movie had a huge impact and all of these guys had the world in front of them to move their careers forward.Quote
keefriffhard4lifeQuote
71TeleQuote
triceratopsQuote
DoomandGloom
The story I know in short is that Danko had a "mad" brother who was obsessed with Civil War and old southern history. He wrote much of the prose in the famous "kitchen" book that Robbie used for lyrics. No one wanted the brother to be involved in the business side and Robbie grabbed the credit. Collectively it could be said they were all thieves with Robbie ending up with most of the "take". The Band never wanted this known, that's why each member's story is full of contradictions.
Robbie was also a heroin user at various stages of his life. Danko was poor and near his demise was forced to work in cheap and undignified setting due to lack of songwriting income due the Robertson rip off. Forced to abuse his health which was not good. Levon Helm implied this at the time of Danko's death. He was perhaps afraid of a Robertson lawsuit if he said it outright
"Lack of songwriting income" from songs he didn't write! I am not the biggest Robertson fan (the man is rather full of himself) but some of this reminds me of the members of CCR revolting against Fogerty and he called their bluff and said "great, you guys write the next album". The result was Mardis Gras, and the only decent songs on it were the two that Fogerty contributed. Face the facts: Great bands need great songwriters, and it's a rare band that has more than one or two. Sometimes great songwriters have big egos. It goes with the territory. Seems to me Helm was angry because he didn't come up with very many songs, and neither did the rest of them. And yes, there's more money in publishing than in recording or performing, but I would say "want more publishing money? Write some hit songs!" Arranging is NOT writing!
and thats what i've been saying. what was clear to me with the 3 post robertson band albums is helm and danko and probably hudson did a lot of arranging. the fact they could take cover tunes and release albums in the 90's that sounded the same way the stuff did in the 70's showed me they had a hand in the sound. in the arrangement. the lack of actually material written by helm, dank and hudson on the 3 90's albums though showed me they didn't really understand what warrants a writing credit because they came up with practically no new material. they had a chance to prove robertson was full of it and they did nothing to prove because on their own they came up with a total of 11 brand new songs spread out over 3 albums.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
TheGreek
()
Date: September 23, 2013 19:11
if i remember correctly ronnie was staying close by rick danko in malibuQuote
rob51
Ronnie and The Band were neighbors in LA at the time of the filming of The Last Waltz and that's probably why he was invited in the first place.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
GumbootCloggeroo
()
Date: September 23, 2013 19:15
Same thing happened to Robbie in the early days, pre-The Band, when he wrote some songs for Ronnie Hawkins. Morris Levy, a gangster/owner of Roulette Records had put himself down as co-writer.Quote
71Tele
While it is true that it was common practice for all kinds of names to be given songwriting "credit" (Chuck Berry was forced to share a credit with Alan Freed, for example)
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: September 23, 2013 19:31
Quote
GumbootCloggerooSame thing happened to Robbie in the early days, pre-The Band, when he wrote some songs for Ronnie Hawkins. Morris Levy, a gangster/owner of Roulette Records had put himself down as co-writer.Quote
71Tele
While it is true that it was common practice for all kinds of names to be given songwriting "credit" (Chuck Berry was forced to share a credit with Alan Freed, for example)
Morris Levy figures prominently in a book about MCA Records' connection with the mafia: Stiffed: A True Story of MCA, the Music Business, and the Mafia
Overview at: [www.billknoedelseder.com]
Available at: [www.amazon.com]
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
GumbootCloggeroo
()
Date: September 23, 2013 20:02
Looks interesting. I'll have to check that out, stonehearted. Thanks!
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
stonesrule
()
Date: September 23, 2013 20:37
I've read Stiffed and it's well done.
I knew the cast of characters at MCA Records, part of Universal Films, and there was a lot going on that the main executives of the parent company were not aware of.
Some familiar names crop up in this book, as well as some sleaze none of us have ever heard of. A couple of good guys there ended up being fired...taking the rap for the bastards.
Stuff like this made me really hate the underbelly of the music business.
I knew the cast of characters at MCA Records, part of Universal Films, and there was a lot going on that the main executives of the parent company were not aware of.
Some familiar names crop up in this book, as well as some sleaze none of us have ever heard of. A couple of good guys there ended up being fired...taking the rap for the bastards.
Stuff like this made me really hate the underbelly of the music business.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
DoomandGloom
()
Date: September 23, 2013 21:55
"helm did not DISLIKE Dylan as you say , he did not like getting booed in concert because bob went electric , so the crowds were outraged at this and this did not sit well with helm who said im out of here . it's in helm's book (wheel on fire) ." Levon walked also during Planet Waves/Basement Tapes Era as well and Richard played drums... But to be fair to Helm I've never met anyone associated with Bob that liked him.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-23 21:56 by DoomandGloom.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-23 21:56 by DoomandGloom.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: September 23, 2013 22:49
Quote
GumbootCloggeroo
Looks interesting. I'll have to check that out, stonehearted. Thanks!
There's lots of unintentional comedy in this book, which makes for quite an entertaining read--it's sort of Goodfellas meets One Trick Pony.
One of the most hilarious things in the book is after this mob guy, Sal Pisello, worms his way into MCA as a sales representative. His one "idea" is to market a break dancing accessory--which he calls "beak dancing mats". This guy is in his 60s, so he doesn't understand the spontaneity behind break dancing--how they just suddenly "break" into a dance on the sidewalk, say. So Pisello must be thinking, "Hey, that looks dangerous, doing that on the pavement, they should have a mat beneath them when they do that." Like someone who does break dancing is going to say, "Hey let me show you a few of my break dancing moves--but wait here, while I run home and get my break dancing mat. Be back in half an hour!"
Even more hilarious is that MCA actually sank good money into Pisello's "idea", as the book details how one of MCA's warehouse became loaded with boxes and boxes of "break dancing mats"--unsold and unused, of course. Just one of the ways in which MCA got "stiffed".
Pisello's real line of work was as a "broker" in MCA's "cut-out" record deal sales practices.
1986 Los Angeles Times article on Pisello by the author of Stiffed at: [articles.latimes.com]
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
duke richardson
()
Date: September 23, 2013 23:01
Quote
DoomandGloom
"helm did not DISLIKE Dylan as you say , he did not like getting booed in concert because bob went electric , so the crowds were outraged at this and this did not sit well with helm who said im out of here . it's in helm's book (wheel on fire) ." Levon walked also during Planet Waves/Basement Tapes Era as well and Richard played drums... But to be fair to Helm I've never met anyone associated with Bob that liked him.
But to be fair to Helm I've never met anyone associated with Bob that liked him
its because he's the neighborhood bully..
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
LieB
()
Date: September 24, 2013 00:00
Quote
stonehearted
One of the most hilarious things in the book is after this mob guy, Sal Pisello, worms his way into MCA as a sales representative. His one "idea" is to market a break dancing accessory--which he calls "beak dancing mats". This guy is in his 60s, so he doesn't understand the spontaneity behind break dancing--how they just suddenly "break" into a dance on the sidewalk, say. So Pisello must be thinking, "Hey, that looks dangerous, doing that on the pavement, they should have a mat beneath them when they do that." Like someone who does break dancing is going to say, "Hey let me show you a few of my break dancing moves--but wait here, while I run home and get my break dancing mat. Be back in half an hour!"
Even more hilarious is that MCA actually sank good money into Pisello's "idea", as the book details how one of MCA's warehouse became loaded with boxes and boxes of "break dancing mats"--unsold and unused, of course. Just one of the ways in which MCA got "stiffed".
Haha, that made me laugh out loud!
I think I gotta grab this book.
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: September 24, 2013 05:00
Quote
GumbootCloggerooSame thing happened to Robbie in the early days, pre-The Band, when he wrote some songs for Ronnie Hawkins. Morris Levy, a gangster/owner of Roulette Records had put himself down as co-writer.Quote
71Tele
While it is true that it was common practice for all kinds of names to be given songwriting "credit" (Chuck Berry was forced to share a credit with Alan Freed, for example)
Good old Morris! Did you read Tommy James' book?
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: October 15, 2013 08:35
In a 6-minute interview clip, Robbie Robertson talks with John Jurgensen of the Wall Street Journal about remixing (with Bob Clearmountain) the Live at the Academy of Music box set, as well as how things changed by the time of The Last Waltz.
Link to video: [live.wsj.com]
Link to video: [live.wsj.com]
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
LieB
()
Date: October 15, 2013 15:08
Thanx for the link!
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: March 20, 2021 17:08
Quote
loog droogQuote
stewedandkeefed
[
SCTV also did a parody of Gimme Shelter in their final year called Gimme Jackie. Entertainment hack Jackie Rogers Jr. (Martin Short) holds a free concert with security provided by the Shriners who kick up trouble when concert goers mess with their tassles.
I love Gimme Jackie! Especially when Short breaks into "Bossa Nova Baby!"
[youtu.be]
Re: Ronnie Wood and The Last Waltz
Posted by:
Elmo Lewis
()
Date: March 20, 2021 18:28
Quote
71TeleQuote
GumbootCloggerooSame thing happened to Robbie in the early days, pre-The Band, when he wrote some songs for Ronnie Hawkins. Morris Levy, a gangster/owner of Roulette Records had put himself down as co-writer.Quote
71Tele
While it is true that it was common practice for all kinds of names to be given songwriting "credit" (Chuck Berry was forced to share a credit with Alan Freed, for example)
Good old Morris! Did you read Tommy James' book?
Great book. Tommy's story is very interesting. Some of the guys were the "inspiration" for characters on The Sopranos.
"No Anchovies, Please"
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