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DoxaQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
DoxaQuote
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Max'sKansasCity
Give it 50 years and no one will be cutting it apart like this, there will simply be the Stones catalog of music, start to finish, no cut off points, no past their prime points, just The Stones music.
No one in 50 years will say....
"I dont like The Stones after this album, or this song".
Unfortunately though, few will ever acknowledge anything the Stones have done post 1981, or perhaps even much earlier, the difference in quality is just so great (and just so obvious!). It's the same with some of the albums by Paul McCartney (PRESS TO PLAY and BACK TO THE EGG) when compared with his Beatles output, REVOLVER, SGT PEPPER and ABBEY ROAD etc (and as if that's not already happening now). Of course, there will always be obsessives who may prove an exception, and devour everything they have done, but even then i suspect it may be more for reference, than enjoyment purposes.
We don't know if people will view it that way in 50 years. Remember, the group of hard core Taylorites on this board is relatively small. Many have VL and even ABB among their favourite 5 albums. It's a little easy saying that it's obvious that the quality gap is huge, even if you and I think so
Hmm... let's say that The Rolling Stones themselves are not particularly proud of their post-TATTOO YOU material if we look at their set lists, for example, during this recent celebrational tours of theirs.... And I don't think Jagger particularly has some marginal Taylorities in his mind when he chooses the songs to play... One needs a lot of fancy if one thinks that some day A BIGGER BANG is seen as worthy as EXILE ON MAIN STREET or "Doom & Gloom" equivalent to "Satisfaction" or "Gimme Shelter" in greatness... Probably someone always will do, like some idiosyncratic diehard fans today, but in a larger scale, no way...
- Doxa
Well, a quick look at the setlist tells me that they're playing more songs from other eras than the Taylor era (5 in HP) nowadays
This is the setlist from the first HP-show - songs where Taylor was on the studio version, either on guitar or bass, in bold (There are 6 Woody-era songs, btw - 7 if you count IORR):
Start Me Up
It's Only Rock'n Roll
Tumbling Dice
All Down The Line
Beast of Burden
Doom And Gloom
Bitch (with Gary Clark Jr.)
Paint It Black
Honky Tonk Women
--- Band presentation
You Got The Silver (Keith)
Before They Make Me Run (Keith)
Miss You
Midnight Rambler (with Mick Taylor)
Gimme Shelter
Jumping Jack Flash
Sympathy For The Devil
Brown Sugar
--- Band off stage
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Satisfaction (with Mick Taylor)
Sorry, but I lost the point here. You seem to have some odd fetisism with Mick Taylor, man...
What that set list tells me is exactly the point I argued above for: that's an account how the Stones view their 'great songs' (or how they view their audiences seeing them). You don't see many post-TATTOO YOU era songs, now do you?
And indeed, that's a helluva list of great songs, indeed!
- Doxa
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DandelionPowderman
More mature songs like Biggest Mistake, The Worst, How Can I Stop and Already Over Me (minus the weak chorus!) are not far behind the old greatness of songs like Waiting On A Friend, Coming Down Again and Memory Motel, imo.
And the brave (and imo successful) effort of Continental Drift deserves way more love on this board!
I'm not sure about those songs, Dandelion, although 'Already Over Me', for me, does have something going for it, and i do rather like the chorus. For a change it's a more recent Jagger vocal i can connect with on an emotional level, unlike perhaps 'Biggest Mistake', 'The Worst' and 'How Can I Stop'. The thing about the latter day Stones songs where vocals are concerned, is Mick tends generally to have a better musical structure to his songs, but is inclined to lack sincerity in his delivery, while Keith tends to make sincerity his prime goal, but his songs often somehow lack structure. He tends to have a more random approach to his delivery (and arrangements i suspect), hoping that with luck he can press the right emotional buttons, but i'm afraid there's too much of a pot luck approach for it to be truly successful. If the Stones could only collaborate a little more closely like in the old days, i feel it could benefit all concerned.
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DandelionPowderman
More mature songs like Biggest Mistake, The Worst, How Can I Stop and Already Over Me (minus the weak chorus!) are not far behind the old greatness of songs like Waiting On A Friend, Coming Down Again and Memory Motel, imo.
And the brave (and imo successful) effort of Continental Drift deserves way more love on this board!
I'm not sure about those songs, Dandelion, although 'Already Over Me', for me, does have something going for it, and i do rather like the chorus. For a change it's a more recent Jagger vocal i can connect with on an emotional level, unlike perhaps 'Biggest Mistake', 'The Worst' and 'How Can I Stop'. The thing about the latter day Stones songs where vocals are concerned, is Mick tends generally to have a better musical structure to his songs, but is inclined to lack sincerity in his delivery, while Keith tends to make sincerity his prime goal, but his songs often somehow lack structure. He tends to have a more random approach to his delivery (and arrangements i suspect), hoping that with luck he can press the right emotional buttons, but i'm afraid there's too much of a pot luck approach for it to be truly successful. If the Stones could only collaborate a little more closely like in the old days, i feel it could benefit all concerned.
This isn't new, coming from Keith (or Mick). I'm baffled about people not seeing the greatness of How Can I Stop, which imo is up there with Moonlight Mile - and many of the same "unstructural" elements (where great musicianship enhances an already great song to unbelievable heights) of greatness as well.
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DandelionPowderman
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DandelionPowderman
Please wake me up when it's over!!
Yes, Dandelion, this is pretty much what i've been on about, a perfect example, in my opinion. Keith sort of meanders and mumbles his way through the song, trying to find some emotional connection by using a few random vocal inflections (at times!). I'm sure he did have a rough template of where the song was to go, and the backing music/vocals hints at a certain vibe in particular was being aimed for, and lyrically, i believe he had a certain number of lyrics fleshed out beforehand, but there's also a sense that he's making a lot of it up on the spot, too. However, for me it's too much a case of throw caution to the wind and see what happens. I do admire Keith though, in at least aiming in the right direction, with regard to not indulging in some of Jagger's musical pretentions. There's a purity with Keith that reminds me of Bob Dylan's later output, only Bob tends to do it so much better.
As far as the early Stones songs are concerned, like i believe you mentioned - 'Who's Been Sleeping Here?' and 'Tell Me' - yes, i think they're great. My thoughts concerning the Stones output, is the first album ROLLING STONES NO 1 through THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST is roughly comparably in quality to GOATS HEAD SOUP though TATTOO YOU, with BEGGARS BANQUET-EXILE ON MAIN STREET being the pinnacle. AFTERMATH and GOATS HEAD SOUP for me, are extremely close to the Stones peak, and almost belong alongside the big 4. Not every song recorded up to 1981 are classics, of course. I would be the last person to say that. Also, i believe ROLLING STONES NO 2, IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL, and EMOTIONAL RESCUE to be pretty mediocre, to a degree, but like i have mentioned in a previous thread with regards to Bob Dylan, all of those albums possess nuggets of greatness. Post TATTOO YOU, those nuggets pretty much begin to evaporate. The previous Stones vitality begins to wane, and the songs arrangements begin to feel too sketchy and underdeveloped to withstand repeated listens. And for the first time Jagger's singing begins to become too mannered and contrived. I don't believe Jagger recorded one bad vocal up to and including TATTOO YOU (although perhaps some of his vocal inflections occasionally may have been questionable, but not very often). After that, things began to change......
Both Mick and Keith could learn a thing or two from Bob.
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stonehearted
I thought we all agreed that the last great Stones song to transcend the studio version was Out Of Control
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DandelionPowderman
If you get the same melancholic and longing feeling with Who's Been Sleeping Here, that's great!
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Edward TwiningQuote
DandelionPowderman
Please wake me up when it's over!!
Yes, Dandelion, this is pretty much what i've been on about, a perfect example, in my opinion. Keith sort of meanders and mumbles his way through the song, trying to find some emotional connection by using a few random vocal inflections (at times!). I'm sure he did have a rough template of where the song was to go, and the backing music/vocals hints at a certain vibe in particular was being aimed for, and lyrically, i believe he had a certain number of lyrics fleshed out beforehand, but there's also a sense that he's making a lot of it up on the spot, too. However, for me it's too much a case of throw caution to the wind and see what happens. I do admire Keith though, in at least aiming in the right direction, with regard to not indulging in some of Jagger's musical pretentions. There's a purity with Keith that reminds me of Bob Dylan's later output, only Bob tends to do it so much better.
As far as the early Stones songs are concerned, like i believe you mentioned - 'Who's Been Sleeping Here?' and 'Tell Me' - yes, i think they're great. My thoughts concerning the Stones output, is the first album ROLLING STONES NO 1 through THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST is roughly comparably in quality to GOATS HEAD SOUP though TATTOO YOU, with BEGGARS BANQUET-EXILE ON MAIN STREET being the pinnacle. AFTERMATH and GOATS HEAD SOUP for me, are extremely close to the Stones peak, and almost belong alongside the big 4. Not every song recorded up to 1981 are classics, of course. I would be the last person to say that. Also, i believe ROLLING STONES NO 2, IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL, and EMOTIONAL RESCUE to be pretty mediocre, to a degree, but like i have mentioned in a previous thread with regards to Bob Dylan, all of those albums possess nuggets of greatness. Post TATTOO YOU, those nuggets pretty much begin to evaporate. The previous Stones vitality begins to wane, and the songs arrangements begin to feel too sketchy and underdeveloped to withstand repeated listens. And for the first time Jagger's singing begins to become too mannered and contrived. I don't believe Jagger recorded one bad vocal up to and including TATTOO YOU (although perhaps some of his vocal inflections occasionally may have been questionable, but not very often). After that, things began to change......
Both Mick and Keith could learn a thing or two from Bob.
This song hits me right in my heart. The coda is majestic. I'm sorry that you can't feel it.
If you get the same melancholic and longing feeling with Who's Been Sleeping Here, that's great!
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stonehearted
I thought we all agreed that the last great Stones song to transcend the studio version was Out Of Control
Agreed but I'd add YGMRocking to the list...
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Edward Twining
[
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-19 00:03 by Edward Twining.
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RedhotcarpetQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Edward TwiningQuote
DandelionPowderman
Please wake me up when it's over!!
Yes, Dandelion, this is pretty much what i've been on about, a perfect example, in my opinion. Keith sort of meanders and mumbles his way through the song, trying to find some emotional connection by using a few random vocal inflections (at times!). I'm sure he did have a rough template of where the song was to go, and the backing music/vocals hints at a certain vibe in particular was being aimed for, and lyrically, i believe he had a certain number of lyrics fleshed out beforehand, but there's also a sense that he's making a lot of it up on the spot, too. However, for me it's too much a case of throw caution to the wind and see what happens. I do admire Keith though, in at least aiming in the right direction, with regard to not indulging in some of Jagger's musical pretentions. There's a purity with Keith that reminds me of Bob Dylan's later output, only Bob tends to do it so much better.
As far as the early Stones songs are concerned, like i believe you mentioned - 'Who's Been Sleeping Here?' and 'Tell Me' - yes, i think they're great. My thoughts concerning the Stones output, is the first album ROLLING STONES NO 1 through THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST is roughly comparably in quality to GOATS HEAD SOUP though TATTOO YOU, with BEGGARS BANQUET-EXILE ON MAIN STREET being the pinnacle. AFTERMATH and GOATS HEAD SOUP for me, are extremely close to the Stones peak, and almost belong alongside the big 4. Not every song recorded up to 1981 are classics, of course. I would be the last person to say that. Also, i believe ROLLING STONES NO 2, IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL, and EMOTIONAL RESCUE to be pretty mediocre, to a degree, but like i have mentioned in a previous thread with regards to Bob Dylan, all of those albums possess nuggets of greatness. Post TATTOO YOU, those nuggets pretty much begin to evaporate. The previous Stones vitality begins to wane, and the songs arrangements begin to feel too sketchy and underdeveloped to withstand repeated listens. And for the first time Jagger's singing begins to become too mannered and contrived. I don't believe Jagger recorded one bad vocal up to and including TATTOO YOU (although perhaps some of his vocal inflections occasionally may have been questionable, but not very often). After that, things began to change......
Both Mick and Keith could learn a thing or two from Bob.
This song hits me right in my heart. The coda is majestic. I'm sorry that you can't feel it.
If you get the same melancholic and longing feeling with Who's Been Sleeping Here, that's great!
And I dont feel anything because it's "Keith tries to be the heart of Stones" and that leaves me cold. Pastiche country.
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DandelionPowderman
While you sleep I'll listen closely to every second of How Can I Stop, which I don't find as unstructured as you do. Some songs don't necessarily need vocals the same way as others do. It's the music and the development that is exciting. A build-up, unexpected turns and crescendos, mixed with small, but important and beautiful details can be great music, too. Like the ending in Moonlight Mile, for instance.
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DandelionPowderman
More mature songs like Biggest Mistake, The Worst, How Can I Stop and Already Over Me (minus the weak chorus!) are not far behind the old greatness of songs like Waiting On A Friend, Coming Down Again and Memory Motel, imo.
And the brave (and imo successful) effort of Continental Drift deserves way more love on this board!
I'm not sure about those songs, Dandelion, although 'Already Over Me', for me, does have something going for it, and i do rather like the chorus. For a change it's a more recent Jagger vocal i can connect with on an emotional level, unlike perhaps 'Biggest Mistake', 'The Worst' and 'How Can I Stop'. The thing about the latter day Stones songs where vocals are concerned, is Mick tends generally to have a better musical structure to his songs, but is inclined to lack sincerity in his delivery, while Keith tends to make sincerity his prime goal, but his songs often somehow lack structure. He tends to have a more random approach to his delivery (and arrangements i suspect), hoping that with luck he can press the right emotional buttons, but i'm afraid there's too much of a pot luck approach for it to be truly successful. If the Stones could only collaborate a little more closely like in the old days, i feel it could benefit all concerned.
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Edward TwiningQuote
DandelionPowderman
While you sleep I'll listen closely to every second of How Can I Stop, which I don't find as unstructured as you do. Some songs don't necessarily need vocals the same way as others do. It's the music and the development that is exciting. A build-up, unexpected turns and crescendos, mixed with small, but important and beautiful details can be great music, too. Like the ending in Moonlight Mile, for instance.
You are welcome to it, Dandelion. Sure you don't need a couple of matchsticks to keep your eyelids open!!
Like the ending in 'Moonlight Mile' - are you serious!!
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DandelionPowderman
While you sleep I'll listen closely to every second of How Can I Stop, which I don't find as unstructured as you do. Some songs don't necessarily need vocals the same way as others do. It's the music and the development that is exciting. A build-up, unexpected turns and crescendos, mixed with small, but important and beautiful details can be great music, too. Like the ending in Moonlight Mile, for instance.
You are welcome to it, Dandelion. Sure you don't need a couple of matchsticks to keep your eyelids open!!
Like the ending in 'Moonlight Mile' - are you serious!!
You don't hear the similarity in the endings???
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Edward TwiningQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Edward TwiningQuote
DandelionPowderman
While you sleep I'll listen closely to every second of How Can I Stop, which I don't find as unstructured as you do. Some songs don't necessarily need vocals the same way as others do. It's the music and the development that is exciting. A build-up, unexpected turns and crescendos, mixed with small, but important and beautiful details can be great music, too. Like the ending in Moonlight Mile, for instance.
You are welcome to it, Dandelion. Sure you don't need a couple of matchsticks to keep your eyelids open!!
Like the ending in 'Moonlight Mile' - are you serious!!
You don't hear the similarity in the endings???
It's not that i don't hear any similarity in the endings, Dandelion, more the fact that you would actually have the nerve to dare to compare 'How Could I Stop' with that utterly majestic, and truly classic Stones song.
I know of course both songs are credited to the same artist, but it's like me attempting to compare my old slapdash school sketch, with a Rembrandt or a Piccasso !!
Very odd!!
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nomis
I was going to give in to the obvious and say "Start Me Up" or "Waiting on a Friend." But after reading Out of Control, I wondered what about Saint of Me? That's a pretty great song.
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Edward Twining
Ok, Dandelion, very man to his own.
It's just that i'd rather listen to Keith's 'You Don't Have To Mean It' with its infectious reggae rhythms, if i'm going to listen to one of his later musical efforts. Or maybe 'Make No Mistake' from TALK IS CHEAP, or 'Slipping Away' from STEELWHEELS. Not exactly prime Keith/Stones, perhaps any of them, but they do move me a little more emotionally.
At least Keith has moved beyond self parody, in more recent years, and matured a little. That i give him credit for. He could have had a late blooming career, a little like Bob Dylan, as a solo artist, if he could find a little more substance within his muse. In a sense, he knows where to go, but he just doesn't seem to have the tools to quite get there.
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DandelionPowderman
You don't have to get everything, just like I won't get your enormous appreciation for Winter, with its strings, standard guitar motifs and even more unstructured build-up as this one have.
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DandelionPowderman
You don't have to get everything, just like I won't get your enormous appreciation for Winter, with its strings, standard guitar motifs and even more unstructured build-up as this one have.
Where the hell I can find more of those "standard guitar motifs"? That guitar is probably the most beautiful piece of lead guitar I have ever heard in my life. That fluidity, timing and finding exactly the right notes... Oh god! Pure guitar art!
A side observation: by among certain posters here - call them, say, "Woodists" - a typical feature I've seen is that with Mick Taylor - and with Brian Jones sometimes as well - pejoritive terms like "standard" (or the term then having a pejorative sense) or "simple", "easy to play", "nothing extraordinary", mainly referred to the technical side of playing, or a lack of genuine innovativity, are used, but whereas when Richards or Wood do something that sort of thing - simplicity, obviousness - that is a worth of praisal. "Straight to the point", "fits to the song", etc.......... So we can hear that "Had It With You" includes about the greatest rhythmn guitar ever played by anyone, even though 99.999% of the people ever listening to it do not hear anything else but a very ordinary rock rhythm guitar part, which anyone knowing anything of guitar can play. That Richards plays it more straight and strict - that is: normally, very standardly - and unlike his typical, more idiosynchratic style, seems to be a virtue... The same phenomenen seems to concern anything rhythmn-oriented, "funky" playing by Ronnie Wood. You don't hear those guitar parts put in the universe of great rhythm/funky guitar, and to be evaluated critically there. But with Taylor's lead guitar... gosh, the man is always under a critical examination, and is supposed to do something striking and distinguished everytime he touches the guitar.... not that the standards for 'great rhythm guitar' are seemingly lower than for 'great lead guitar', that actually alone says something of Taylor's actual greatness as a player, shared both by his admirers and, without they realizing it, by pure "Woodists"...><
- Doxa
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DandelionPowderman
You don't have to get everything, just like I won't get your enormous appreciation for Winter, with its strings, standard guitar motifs and even more unstructured build-up as this one have.
Where the hell I can find more of those "standard guitar motifs"? That guitar is probably the most beautiful piece of lead guitar I have ever heard in my life. That fluidity, timing and finding exactly the right notes... Oh god! Pure guitar art!
A side observation: by among certain posters here - call them, say, "Woodists" - a typical feature I've seen is that with Mick Taylor - and with Brian Jones sometimes as well - pejoritive terms like "standard" (or the term then having a pejorative sense) or "simple", "easy to play", "nothing extraordinary", mainly referred to the technical side of playing, or a lack of genuine innovativity, are used, but whereas when Richards or Wood do something that sort of thing - simplicity, obviousness - that is a worth of praisal. "Straight to the point", "fits to the song", etc.......... So we can hear that "Had It With You" includes about the greatest rhythmn guitar ever played by anyone, even though 99.999% of the people ever listening to it do not hear anything else but a very ordinary rock rhythm guitar part, which anyone knowing anything of guitar can play. That Richards plays it more straight and strict - that is: normally, very standardly - and unlike his typical, more idiosynchratic style, seems to be a virtue... The same phenomenen seems to concern anything rhythmn-oriented, "funky" playing by Ronnie Wood. You don't hear those guitar parts put in the universe of great rhythm/funky guitar, and to be evaluated critically there. But with Taylor's lead guitar... gosh, the man is always under a critical examination, and is supposed to do something striking and distinguished everytime he touches the guitar.... not that the standards for 'great rhythm guitar' are seemingly lower than for 'great lead guitar', that actually alone says something of Taylor's actual greatness as a player, shared both by his admirers and, without they realizing it, by pure "Woodists"...><
- Doxa
Here's some nice standard guitar motifs to hear: Taylor playing with Preston during the 1973 European Stones tour as a support act. They do some Beatles-tunes that are not very well structured but sound rather well:
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DandelionPowderman
If it's the most beautiful piece of lead guitar you've ever heard - fine, more power to you! To me it's nothing special - a fill-in, with a fussy rock sound all the other 70s bands had at the time. I absolutely adore the guitar on Moonlight Mile, but that's how art works - we interpret it differently.
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DandelionPowderman
If it's the most beautiful piece of lead guitar you've ever heard - fine, more power to you! To me it's nothing special - a fill-in, with a fussy rock sound all the other 70s bands had at the time. I absolutely adore the guitar on Moonlight Mile, but that's how art works - we interpret it differently.
Dandelion, i don't agree with you fundamentally. However, i do feel 'Moonlight Mile' does have a more pronounced musical structure, where all the pieces are well mapped out in advance. 'Winter' strikes me a little more as a bare bones type of song in terms of its written structure and in terms of the music - with a sort of put everything into the pot, mix it up, and see what floats to the surface, sort of attitude. I think that may also be the case with a number of the other GOATS HEAD SOUP tracks as well, namely '100 years Ago', 'Can You Hear The Music?' and even perhaps the more sparse sounding 'Hide Your Love' too. That's maybe why the critics have always been a little less inclined to rate it as highly as the big four.
However, the Stones still had their faculties intact, even if their musical inspiration wasn't quite so focused. I fully agree with Doxa about the end result with regards to the Taylor solo, the strings, and all the other musical touches - it's very beautiful, very atmospheric, maybe even eclipsing 'Moonlight Mile', to a degree in some ways. Ultimately, though, 'Moonlight Mile' does seem a more 'definitive' song, if you understand my point.