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Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 18, 2013 12:42

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Doxa
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DandelionPowderman
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Doxa
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DandelionPowderman
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Edward Twining
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Max'sKansasCity
Give it 50 years and no one will be cutting it apart like this, there will simply be the Stones catalog of music, start to finish, no cut off points, no past their prime points, just The Stones music.

No one in 50 years will say....
"I dont like The Stones after this album, or this song".

Unfortunately though, few will ever acknowledge anything the Stones have done post 1981, or perhaps even much earlier, the difference in quality is just so great (and just so obvious!). It's the same with some of the albums by Paul McCartney (PRESS TO PLAY and BACK TO THE EGG) when compared with his Beatles output, REVOLVER, SGT PEPPER and ABBEY ROAD etc (and as if that's not already happening now). Of course, there will always be obsessives who may prove an exception, and devour everything they have done, but even then i suspect it may be more for reference, than enjoyment purposes.

We don't know if people will view it that way in 50 years. Remember, the group of hard core Taylorites on this board is relatively small. Many have VL and even ABB among their favourite 5 albums. It's a little easy saying that it's obvious that the quality gap is huge, even if you and I think so smiling smiley

Hmm... let's say that The Rolling Stones themselves are not particularly proud of their post-TATTOO YOU material if we look at their set lists, for example, during this recent celebrational tours of theirs.... And I don't think Jagger particularly has some marginal Taylorities in his mind when he chooses the songs to play... One needs a lot of fancy if one thinks that some day A BIGGER BANG is seen as worthy as EXILE ON MAIN STREET or "Doom & Gloom" equivalent to "Satisfaction" or "Gimme Shelter" in greatness... Probably someone always will do, like some idiosyncratic diehard fans today, but in a larger scale, no way...

- Doxa

Well, a quick look at the setlist tells me that they're playing more songs from other eras than the Taylor era (5 in HP) nowadays smiling smiley

This is the setlist from the first HP-show - songs where Taylor was on the studio version, either on guitar or bass, in bold (There are 6 Woody-era songs, btw - 7 if you count IORR):


Start Me Up
It's Only Rock'n Roll
Tumbling Dice
All Down The Line
Beast of Burden
Doom And Gloom
Bitch (with Gary Clark Jr.)
Paint It Black
Honky Tonk Women
--- Band presentation
You Got The Silver (Keith)
Before They Make Me Run (Keith)
Miss You
Midnight Rambler (with Mick Taylor)
Gimme Shelter
Jumping Jack Flash
Sympathy For The Devil
Brown Sugar
--- Band off stage
You Can't Always Get What You Want
Satisfaction (with Mick Taylor)

Sorry, but I lost the point here. You seem to have some odd fetisism with Mick Taylor, man...winking smiley

What that set list tells me is exactly the point I argued above for: that's an account how the Stones view their 'great songs' (or how they view their audiences seeing them). You don't see many post-TATTOO YOU era songs, now do you?

And indeed, that's a helluva list of great songs, indeed!

- Doxa

I can see that, but the basis for this discussion was that Edward said that the quality gap was so huge and obvious. He was probably not talking about Who's Been Sleeping Here or Tell Me.

For me, the gap isn't that obvious - because I find nuggets in their 90s and 00s catalog as well - although they're more sparsely placed in recent years.

For a nostalgia tour like this, I think they balanced the material pretty well, although they should have kept both Out Of Control and One More Shot in the setlist all the way, imo.

When they did the huge charity show (MSG 121212), they wanted television viewers all over the world to have YGMR. A horrendous decision, imo - just saying it means something...

EDIT:

I think the lack of latter day material in the setlist has nothing to do with the quality of the songs - it's laziness! The Stones is not a working band. They don't meet regularly to rehearse or exchange ideas. And they are certainly not giving them enough time to change things drastically when they meet up for a new tour.

A short rehearsal period later they have perhaps rehearsed 5 or 6 surprises, and will play a couple of them in concert.

Judging by the MSG 1998 bootlegs and the reports from those shows, songs like Lowdown, Juiced, Saint Of Me, Out Of Control, Already Over Me, Thief, You Don't Have To Mean It or How Can I Stop wouldn't make a setlist any poorer.

The problem is that they don't bother to rehearse the newer (and some of the old) tunes, imo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-18 13:07 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 18, 2013 13:15

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Edward Twining
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DandelionPowderman

More mature songs like Biggest Mistake, The Worst, How Can I Stop and Already Over Me (minus the weak chorus!) are not far behind the old greatness of songs like Waiting On A Friend, Coming Down Again and Memory Motel, imo.

And the brave (and imo successful) effort of Continental Drift deserves way more love on this board!

I'm not sure about those songs, Dandelion, although 'Already Over Me', for me, does have something going for it, and i do rather like the chorus. For a change it's a more recent Jagger vocal i can connect with on an emotional level, unlike perhaps 'Biggest Mistake', 'The Worst' and 'How Can I Stop'. The thing about the latter day Stones songs where vocals are concerned, is Mick tends generally to have a better musical structure to his songs, but is inclined to lack sincerity in his delivery, while Keith tends to make sincerity his prime goal, but his songs often somehow lack structure. He tends to have a more random approach to his delivery (and arrangements i suspect), hoping that with luck he can press the right emotional buttons, but i'm afraid there's too much of a pot luck approach for it to be truly successful. If the Stones could only collaborate a little more closely like in the old days, i feel it could benefit all concerned.

This isn't new, coming from Keith (or Mick). I'm baffled about people not seeing the greatness of How Can I Stop, which imo is up there with Moonlight Mile - and many of the same "unstructural" elements (where great musicianship enhances an already great song to unbelievable heights) of greatness as well.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: kleermaker ()
Date: September 18, 2013 14:59

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Edward Twining
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DandelionPowderman

More mature songs like Biggest Mistake, The Worst, How Can I Stop and Already Over Me (minus the weak chorus!) are not far behind the old greatness of songs like Waiting On A Friend, Coming Down Again and Memory Motel, imo.

And the brave (and imo successful) effort of Continental Drift deserves way more love on this board!

I'm not sure about those songs, Dandelion, although 'Already Over Me', for me, does have something going for it, and i do rather like the chorus. For a change it's a more recent Jagger vocal i can connect with on an emotional level, unlike perhaps 'Biggest Mistake', 'The Worst' and 'How Can I Stop'. The thing about the latter day Stones songs where vocals are concerned, is Mick tends generally to have a better musical structure to his songs, but is inclined to lack sincerity in his delivery, while Keith tends to make sincerity his prime goal, but his songs often somehow lack structure. He tends to have a more random approach to his delivery (and arrangements i suspect), hoping that with luck he can press the right emotional buttons, but i'm afraid there's too much of a pot luck approach for it to be truly successful. If the Stones could only collaborate a little more closely like in the old days, i feel it could benefit all concerned.

This isn't new, coming from Keith (or Mick). I'm baffled about people not seeing the greatness of How Can I Stop, which imo is up there with Moonlight Mile - and many of the same "unstructural" elements (where great musicianship enhances an already great song to unbelievable heights) of greatness as well.

I agree (again) with Edward. There are some nice later day Stones songs (Mixed Emotions is not that bad), but Keith's songs do miss structure and are too one dimensional. They are too much scetches instead of complete songs.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 18, 2013 15:04




Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Edward Twining ()
Date: September 18, 2013 18:55

Quote
DandelionPowderman


Please wake me up when it's over!!confused smiley

Yes, Dandelion, this is pretty much what i've been on about, a perfect example, in my opinion. Keith sort of meanders and mumbles his way through the song, trying to find some emotional connection by using a few random vocal inflections (at times!). I'm sure he did have a rough template of where the song was to go, and the backing music/vocals hints at a certain vibe in particular was being aimed for, and lyrically, i believe he had a certain number of lyrics fleshed out beforehand, but there's also a sense that he's making a lot of it up on the spot, too. However, for me it's too much a case of throw caution to the wind and see what happens. I do admire Keith though, in at least aiming in the right direction, with regard to not indulging in some of Jagger's musical pretentions. There's a purity with Keith that reminds me of Bob Dylan's later output, only Bob tends to do it so much better.

As far as the early Stones songs are concerned, like i believe you mentioned - 'Who's Been Sleeping Here?' and 'Tell Me' - yes, i think they're great. My thoughts concerning the Stones output, is the first album ROLLING STONES NO 1 through THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST is roughly comparably in quality to GOATS HEAD SOUP though TATTOO YOU, with BEGGARS BANQUET-EXILE ON MAIN STREET being the pinnacle. AFTERMATH and GOATS HEAD SOUP for me, are extremely close to the Stones peak, and almost belong alongside the big 4. Not every song recorded up to 1981 are classics, of course. I would be the last person to say that. Also, i believe ROLLING STONES NO 2, IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL, and EMOTIONAL RESCUE to be pretty mediocre, to a degree, but like i have mentioned in a previous thread with regards to Bob Dylan, all of those albums possess nuggets of greatness. Post TATTOO YOU, those nuggets pretty much begin to evaporate. The previous Stones vitality begins to wane, and the songs arrangements begin to feel too sketchy and underdeveloped to withstand repeated listens. And for the first time Jagger's singing begins to become too mannered and contrived. I don't believe Jagger recorded one bad vocal up to and including TATTOO YOU (although perhaps some of his vocal inflections occasionally may have been questionable, but not very often). After that, things began to change......

Both Mick and Keith could learn a thing or two from Bob.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-18 19:21 by Edward Twining.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Max'sKansasCity ()
Date: September 18, 2013 20:08

As I scratch my head, again, and wonder why people who feel The Stones have done nothing worth while musically for over 30 years still bother to post 1000s and 1000s of words basically whining about how they feel The Stones have done nothing worthwhile musically in over 30 years.

If/when I like a band..... and they go south (in my opinion), and many have, I am done with them. I am gone. I do not, would not, will not spend hours and hours on their fan website typing and talking to people who still enjoy the band's current stuff, trying to convince them that the band now sucks and how I dont want another album. WHY WOULD I? WHY WOULD ANYTONE?

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 18, 2013 21:35

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Edward Twining
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DandelionPowderman


Please wake me up when it's over!!confused smiley

Yes, Dandelion, this is pretty much what i've been on about, a perfect example, in my opinion. Keith sort of meanders and mumbles his way through the song, trying to find some emotional connection by using a few random vocal inflections (at times!). I'm sure he did have a rough template of where the song was to go, and the backing music/vocals hints at a certain vibe in particular was being aimed for, and lyrically, i believe he had a certain number of lyrics fleshed out beforehand, but there's also a sense that he's making a lot of it up on the spot, too. However, for me it's too much a case of throw caution to the wind and see what happens. I do admire Keith though, in at least aiming in the right direction, with regard to not indulging in some of Jagger's musical pretentions. There's a purity with Keith that reminds me of Bob Dylan's later output, only Bob tends to do it so much better.

As far as the early Stones songs are concerned, like i believe you mentioned - 'Who's Been Sleeping Here?' and 'Tell Me' - yes, i think they're great. My thoughts concerning the Stones output, is the first album ROLLING STONES NO 1 through THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST is roughly comparably in quality to GOATS HEAD SOUP though TATTOO YOU, with BEGGARS BANQUET-EXILE ON MAIN STREET being the pinnacle. AFTERMATH and GOATS HEAD SOUP for me, are extremely close to the Stones peak, and almost belong alongside the big 4. Not every song recorded up to 1981 are classics, of course. I would be the last person to say that. Also, i believe ROLLING STONES NO 2, IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL, and EMOTIONAL RESCUE to be pretty mediocre, to a degree, but like i have mentioned in a previous thread with regards to Bob Dylan, all of those albums possess nuggets of greatness. Post TATTOO YOU, those nuggets pretty much begin to evaporate. The previous Stones vitality begins to wane, and the songs arrangements begin to feel too sketchy and underdeveloped to withstand repeated listens. And for the first time Jagger's singing begins to become too mannered and contrived. I don't believe Jagger recorded one bad vocal up to and including TATTOO YOU (although perhaps some of his vocal inflections occasionally may have been questionable, but not very often). After that, things began to change......

Both Mick and Keith could learn a thing or two from Bob.

This song hits me right in my heart. The coda is majestic. I'm sorry that you can't feel it.

If you get the same melancholic and longing feeling with Who's Been Sleeping Here, that's great!

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: September 18, 2013 21:42

Quote
stonehearted
I thought we all agreed that the last great Stones song to transcend the studio version was Out Of Control

Agreed but I'd add YGMRocking to the list...

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Edward Twining ()
Date: September 18, 2013 23:00

Quote
DandelionPowderman


If you get the same melancholic and longing feeling with Who's Been Sleeping Here, that's great!

I don't quite see the comparison, Dandelion. 'Who's Been Sleeping Here' is clearly a mid 60s Bob Dylan influenced song, and in a sense it's very much of its time, and something the Stones wouldn't pursue any further, once they got back to the rock 'n' roll and blues roots. However, in a sense the fact the Stones would abandon this type of song, almost as quicky as they began to incorporate it, only, i feel, adds to its interest, and although perhaps it's not necessarily the Stones musical forte, it is a very welcome addition to the Stones catalogue of songs. I love those tinges of folk to be found on those late sixties Stones songs, like 'Family' and 'Downtown Suzie', also, although they were not officially released at the time. I think the more acoustic sounds are why i tend to love BEGGARS BANQUET so much, also. Pesonally, i have always seen a musical connection between 'Who's Been Sleeping Here' and 'Jigsaw Puzzle' because both songs use Bob Dylan style descriptive lyrics, a sort of a catalogue of slightly unusual scenarios. 'Jigsaw Puzzle' has the same Jagger style vocal too, and is very much the last remnants of the Stones circa 1967, in terms of his vocal and lyrical styling. Maybe those song were written around the same time? 'Jigsaw Puzzle' aside, there are really few leftovers on BEGGARS BANQUET of the Stones circa 1967.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-19 00:04 by Edward Twining.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 18, 2013 23:14

I like the song myself. Family and Suzie I can do without. Puzzle is ok. I agree they are Dylan-esque. Not sure about Suzie, though.

While you sleep I'll listen closely to every second of How Can I Stop, which I don't find as unstructured as you do. Some songs don't necessarily need vocals the same way as others do. It's the music and the development that is exciting. A build-up, unexpected turns and crescendos, mixed with small, but important and beautiful details can be great music, too. Like the ending in Moonlight Mile, for instance.

Not very typical for the Stones. But they do them splendidly, imo.

Never meant to compare the songs, though. .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-18 23:16 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: September 18, 2013 23:50

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Edward Twining
Quote
DandelionPowderman


Please wake me up when it's over!!confused smiley

Yes, Dandelion, this is pretty much what i've been on about, a perfect example, in my opinion. Keith sort of meanders and mumbles his way through the song, trying to find some emotional connection by using a few random vocal inflections (at times!). I'm sure he did have a rough template of where the song was to go, and the backing music/vocals hints at a certain vibe in particular was being aimed for, and lyrically, i believe he had a certain number of lyrics fleshed out beforehand, but there's also a sense that he's making a lot of it up on the spot, too. However, for me it's too much a case of throw caution to the wind and see what happens. I do admire Keith though, in at least aiming in the right direction, with regard to not indulging in some of Jagger's musical pretentions. There's a purity with Keith that reminds me of Bob Dylan's later output, only Bob tends to do it so much better.

As far as the early Stones songs are concerned, like i believe you mentioned - 'Who's Been Sleeping Here?' and 'Tell Me' - yes, i think they're great. My thoughts concerning the Stones output, is the first album ROLLING STONES NO 1 through THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST is roughly comparably in quality to GOATS HEAD SOUP though TATTOO YOU, with BEGGARS BANQUET-EXILE ON MAIN STREET being the pinnacle. AFTERMATH and GOATS HEAD SOUP for me, are extremely close to the Stones peak, and almost belong alongside the big 4. Not every song recorded up to 1981 are classics, of course. I would be the last person to say that. Also, i believe ROLLING STONES NO 2, IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL, and EMOTIONAL RESCUE to be pretty mediocre, to a degree, but like i have mentioned in a previous thread with regards to Bob Dylan, all of those albums possess nuggets of greatness. Post TATTOO YOU, those nuggets pretty much begin to evaporate. The previous Stones vitality begins to wane, and the songs arrangements begin to feel too sketchy and underdeveloped to withstand repeated listens. And for the first time Jagger's singing begins to become too mannered and contrived. I don't believe Jagger recorded one bad vocal up to and including TATTOO YOU (although perhaps some of his vocal inflections occasionally may have been questionable, but not very often). After that, things began to change......

Both Mick and Keith could learn a thing or two from Bob.

This song hits me right in my heart. The coda is majestic. I'm sorry that you can't feel it.

If you get the same melancholic and longing feeling with Who's Been Sleeping Here, that's great!

And I dont feel anything because it's "Keith tries to be the heart of Stones" and that leaves me cold. Pastiche country.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: September 18, 2013 23:51

Quote
dcba
Quote
stonehearted
I thought we all agreed that the last great Stones song to transcend the studio version was Out Of Control

Agreed but I'd add YGMRocking to the list...

YGB kidding me?

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Edward Twining ()
Date: September 19, 2013 00:03

Quote
Edward Twining
[



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-19 00:03 by Edward Twining.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: nomis ()
Date: September 19, 2013 00:29

I was going to give in to the obvious and say "Start Me Up" or "Waiting on a Friend." But after reading Out of Control, I wondered what about Saint of Me? That's a pretty great song.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 19, 2013 00:30

Quote
Redhotcarpet
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Edward Twining
Quote
DandelionPowderman


Please wake me up when it's over!!confused smiley

Yes, Dandelion, this is pretty much what i've been on about, a perfect example, in my opinion. Keith sort of meanders and mumbles his way through the song, trying to find some emotional connection by using a few random vocal inflections (at times!). I'm sure he did have a rough template of where the song was to go, and the backing music/vocals hints at a certain vibe in particular was being aimed for, and lyrically, i believe he had a certain number of lyrics fleshed out beforehand, but there's also a sense that he's making a lot of it up on the spot, too. However, for me it's too much a case of throw caution to the wind and see what happens. I do admire Keith though, in at least aiming in the right direction, with regard to not indulging in some of Jagger's musical pretentions. There's a purity with Keith that reminds me of Bob Dylan's later output, only Bob tends to do it so much better.

As far as the early Stones songs are concerned, like i believe you mentioned - 'Who's Been Sleeping Here?' and 'Tell Me' - yes, i think they're great. My thoughts concerning the Stones output, is the first album ROLLING STONES NO 1 through THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES REQUEST is roughly comparably in quality to GOATS HEAD SOUP though TATTOO YOU, with BEGGARS BANQUET-EXILE ON MAIN STREET being the pinnacle. AFTERMATH and GOATS HEAD SOUP for me, are extremely close to the Stones peak, and almost belong alongside the big 4. Not every song recorded up to 1981 are classics, of course. I would be the last person to say that. Also, i believe ROLLING STONES NO 2, IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL, and EMOTIONAL RESCUE to be pretty mediocre, to a degree, but like i have mentioned in a previous thread with regards to Bob Dylan, all of those albums possess nuggets of greatness. Post TATTOO YOU, those nuggets pretty much begin to evaporate. The previous Stones vitality begins to wane, and the songs arrangements begin to feel too sketchy and underdeveloped to withstand repeated listens. And for the first time Jagger's singing begins to become too mannered and contrived. I don't believe Jagger recorded one bad vocal up to and including TATTOO YOU (although perhaps some of his vocal inflections occasionally may have been questionable, but not very often). After that, things began to change......

Both Mick and Keith could learn a thing or two from Bob.

This song hits me right in my heart. The coda is majestic. I'm sorry that you can't feel it.

If you get the same melancholic and longing feeling with Who's Been Sleeping Here, that's great!

And I dont feel anything because it's "Keith tries to be the heart of Stones" and that leaves me cold. Pastiche country.

Country???

I wonder what Wayne Shorter would think of that...

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Edward Twining ()
Date: September 19, 2013 00:35

Quote
DandelionPowderman


While you sleep I'll listen closely to every second of How Can I Stop, which I don't find as unstructured as you do. Some songs don't necessarily need vocals the same way as others do. It's the music and the development that is exciting. A build-up, unexpected turns and crescendos, mixed with small, but important and beautiful details can be great music, too. Like the ending in Moonlight Mile, for instance.



You are welcome to it, Dandelion. Sure you don't need a couple of matchsticks to keep your eyelids open!!yawning smiley

Like the ending in 'Moonlight Mile' - are you serious!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-19 00:36 by Edward Twining.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: nomis ()
Date: September 19, 2013 00:40

I like Biggest Mistake as well, maybe not great tho. Worried About You rates great along with Start Me Up and Waiting on a Friend. They don't have to be hits to be great.

Quote
Edward Twining
Quote
DandelionPowderman

More mature songs like Biggest Mistake, The Worst, How Can I Stop and Already Over Me (minus the weak chorus!) are not far behind the old greatness of songs like Waiting On A Friend, Coming Down Again and Memory Motel, imo.

And the brave (and imo successful) effort of Continental Drift deserves way more love on this board!

I'm not sure about those songs, Dandelion, although 'Already Over Me', for me, does have something going for it, and i do rather like the chorus. For a change it's a more recent Jagger vocal i can connect with on an emotional level, unlike perhaps 'Biggest Mistake', 'The Worst' and 'How Can I Stop'. The thing about the latter day Stones songs where vocals are concerned, is Mick tends generally to have a better musical structure to his songs, but is inclined to lack sincerity in his delivery, while Keith tends to make sincerity his prime goal, but his songs often somehow lack structure. He tends to have a more random approach to his delivery (and arrangements i suspect), hoping that with luck he can press the right emotional buttons, but i'm afraid there's too much of a pot luck approach for it to be truly successful. If the Stones could only collaborate a little more closely like in the old days, i feel it could benefit all concerned.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 19, 2013 01:02

Quote
Edward Twining
Quote
DandelionPowderman


While you sleep I'll listen closely to every second of How Can I Stop, which I don't find as unstructured as you do. Some songs don't necessarily need vocals the same way as others do. It's the music and the development that is exciting. A build-up, unexpected turns and crescendos, mixed with small, but important and beautiful details can be great music, too. Like the ending in Moonlight Mile, for instance.



You are welcome to it, Dandelion. Sure you don't need a couple of matchsticks to keep your eyelids open!!yawning smiley

Like the ending in 'Moonlight Mile' - are you serious!!

You don't hear the similarity in the endings???

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Edward Twining ()
Date: September 19, 2013 10:28

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Edward Twining
Quote
DandelionPowderman


While you sleep I'll listen closely to every second of How Can I Stop, which I don't find as unstructured as you do. Some songs don't necessarily need vocals the same way as others do. It's the music and the development that is exciting. A build-up, unexpected turns and crescendos, mixed with small, but important and beautiful details can be great music, too. Like the ending in Moonlight Mile, for instance.



You are welcome to it, Dandelion. Sure you don't need a couple of matchsticks to keep your eyelids open!!yawning smiley

Like the ending in 'Moonlight Mile' - are you serious!!

You don't hear the similarity in the endings???

It's not that i don't hear any similarity in the endings, Dandelion, more the fact that you would actually have the nerve to dare to compare 'How Could I Stop' with that utterly majestic, and truly classic Stones song.

I know of course both songs are credited to the same artist, but it's like me attempting to compare my old slapdash school sketch, with a Rembrandt or a Piccasso !!

Very odd!!

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 19, 2013 11:01

Quote
Edward Twining
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Edward Twining
Quote
DandelionPowderman


While you sleep I'll listen closely to every second of How Can I Stop, which I don't find as unstructured as you do. Some songs don't necessarily need vocals the same way as others do. It's the music and the development that is exciting. A build-up, unexpected turns and crescendos, mixed with small, but important and beautiful details can be great music, too. Like the ending in Moonlight Mile, for instance.



You are welcome to it, Dandelion. Sure you don't need a couple of matchsticks to keep your eyelids open!!yawning smiley

Like the ending in 'Moonlight Mile' - are you serious!!

You don't hear the similarity in the endings???

It's not that i don't hear any similarity in the endings, Dandelion, more the fact that you would actually have the nerve to dare to compare 'How Could I Stop' with that utterly majestic, and truly classic Stones song.

I know of course both songs are credited to the same artist, but it's like me attempting to compare my old slapdash school sketch, with a Rembrandt or a Piccasso !!

Very odd!!

The nerve? It's baffling that YOU have the nerve to repeatedly criticise one of my favourite Stones songs, after I have explained numerous times why I love it so much smiling smiley

Moonlight Mile is my favourite Stones song ever. How Can I Stop is up there on my top 5 list. The coda on the latter, with the Charlie and Wayne Shorter-interplay, is perhaps the best I've heard by anyone in rock music (and I'm heavily into the first King Crimson-albums nowadays, so I don't get easily impressed).

While you are nodding, I appreciate the beautiful details and the dynamics. That's how art works sometimes. You don't have to get everything, just like I won't get your enormous appreciation for Winter, with its strings, standard guitar motifs and even more unstructured build-up as this one have.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Eleanor Rigby ()
Date: September 19, 2013 11:23

Quote
nomis
I was going to give in to the obvious and say "Start Me Up" or "Waiting on a Friend." But after reading Out of Control, I wondered what about Saint of Me? That's a pretty great song.

yeah i like Saint Of Me...
still not sure either of those songs you mention are "GREAT".
Very good - yes.

Great would be Start Me Up & Waiting on a Friend.

Anything after Tattoo You is a blend of very good, good, average & poor songs.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Edward Twining ()
Date: September 19, 2013 11:37

Ok, Dandelion, very man to his ownsmileys with beer.

It's just that i'd rather listen to Keith's 'You Don't Have To Mean It' with its infectious reggae rhythms, if i'm going to listen to one of his later musical efforts. Or maybe 'Make No Mistake' from TALK IS CHEAP, or 'Slipping Away' from STEELWHEELS. Not exactly prime Keith/Stones, perhaps any of them, but they do move me a little more emotionally.

At least Keith has moved beyond self parody, in more recent years, and matured a little. That i give him credit for. He could have had a late blooming career, a little like Bob Dylan, as a solo artist, if he could find a little more substance within his muse. In a sense, he knows where to go, but he just doesn't seem to have the tools to quite get there.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 19, 2013 12:11

Quote
Edward Twining
Ok, Dandelion, very man to his ownsmileys with beer.

It's just that i'd rather listen to Keith's 'You Don't Have To Mean It' with its infectious reggae rhythms, if i'm going to listen to one of his later musical efforts. Or maybe 'Make No Mistake' from TALK IS CHEAP, or 'Slipping Away' from STEELWHEELS. Not exactly prime Keith/Stones, perhaps any of them, but they do move me a little more emotionally.

At least Keith has moved beyond self parody, in more recent years, and matured a little. That i give him credit for. He could have had a late blooming career, a little like Bob Dylan, as a solo artist, if he could find a little more substance within his muse. In a sense, he knows where to go, but he just doesn't seem to have the tools to quite get there.

Make No Mistake I regard as brilliant, almost as beautiful as Hate It When You Leave, although perhaps it is better performed and produced.

You Don't Have To Mean It I find nice, but nothing more. The "infectious reggae-rhythms" are too much relying on piano and horns, thinning out Keith's reggae-playing, which I always find interesting.

Slipping Away is beautiful on SW. It is interesting that this song escaped the "effect-mill" that so sadly mis-coloured the other songs on this album.

Make No Mistake may be the only relevant comparison with How Can I Stop musically, though. The former is shaped as a single - short and sweet. The latter is imo a perfect album ender.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 19, 2013 12:43

Quote
DandelionPowderman
You don't have to get everything, just like I won't get your enormous appreciation for Winter, with its strings, standard guitar motifs and even more unstructured build-up as this one have.

Where the hell I can find more of those "standard guitar motifs"? That guitar is probably the most beautiful piece of lead guitar I have ever heard in my life. That fluidity, timing and finding exactly the right notes... Oh god! Pure guitar art!

A side observation: by among certain posters here - call them, say, "Woodists" - a typical feature I've seen is that with Mick Taylor - and with Brian Jones sometimes as well - pejoritive terms like "standard" (or the term then having a pejorative sense) or "simple", "easy to play", "nothing extraordinary", mainly referred to the technical side of playing, or a lack of genuine innovativity, are used, but whereas when Richards or Wood do something that sort of thing - simplicity, obviousness - that is a worth of praisal. "Straight to the point", "fits to the song", etc.......... So we can hear that "Had It With You" includes about the greatest rhythmn guitar ever played by anyone, even though 99.999% of the people ever listening to it do not hear anything else but a very ordinary rock rhythm guitar part, which anyone knowing anything of guitar can play. That Richards plays it more straight and strict - that is: normally, very standardly - and unlike his typical, more idiosynchratic style, seems to be a virtue... The same phenomenen seems to concern anything rhythmn-oriented, "funky" playing by Ronnie Wood. You don't hear those guitar parts put in the universe of great rhythm/funky guitar, and to be evaluated critically there. But with Taylor's lead guitar... gosh, the man is always under a critical examination, and is supposed to do something striking and distinguished everytime he touches the guitar.... not that the standards for 'great rhythm guitar' are seemingly lower than for 'great lead guitar', that actually alone says something of Taylor's actual greatness as a player, shared both by his admirers and, without they realizing it, by pure "Woodists"...>grinning smiley<

- Doxa

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 19, 2013 12:57

It's about aquired taste, Doxa. However, you just grabbed something from a discussion, and you're using it for something else. My point was that Edward appreciates this, and I appreciate something else. That should be respected.

If it's the most beautiful piece of lead guitar you've ever heard - fine, more power to you! To me it's nothing special - a fill-in, with a fussy rock sound all the other 70s bands had at the time. I absolutely adore the guitar on Moonlight Mile, but that's how art works - we interpret it differently.

Yes, I think a few seconds of the boogie in Had It With You is the tightest I've ever heard, and I love it, in all my nerdiness! I love Keith's guitar sound there as well. I'm perfectly aware of the fact that 99% disagree with me on this one, but that's how it is - so what?

PS: You don't need to whisper, Doxa, I can take it, and I hear you grinning smiley

If you want more of similar guitar motifs, try Thin Lizzy...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-19 12:58 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 19, 2013 13:12

Dandie, I am so used to that some of my sayings - many times really irrelevant - are taken out of their context, that I have taken the right to do that myself, too.... Besides you do mean what you say, don't you?

Thin Lizzy, jeez... eye popping smiley

- Doxa

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: kleermaker ()
Date: September 19, 2013 13:34

Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
You don't have to get everything, just like I won't get your enormous appreciation for Winter, with its strings, standard guitar motifs and even more unstructured build-up as this one have.

Where the hell I can find more of those "standard guitar motifs"? That guitar is probably the most beautiful piece of lead guitar I have ever heard in my life. That fluidity, timing and finding exactly the right notes... Oh god! Pure guitar art!

A side observation: by among certain posters here - call them, say, "Woodists" - a typical feature I've seen is that with Mick Taylor - and with Brian Jones sometimes as well - pejoritive terms like "standard" (or the term then having a pejorative sense) or "simple", "easy to play", "nothing extraordinary", mainly referred to the technical side of playing, or a lack of genuine innovativity, are used, but whereas when Richards or Wood do something that sort of thing - simplicity, obviousness - that is a worth of praisal. "Straight to the point", "fits to the song", etc.......... So we can hear that "Had It With You" includes about the greatest rhythmn guitar ever played by anyone, even though 99.999% of the people ever listening to it do not hear anything else but a very ordinary rock rhythm guitar part, which anyone knowing anything of guitar can play. That Richards plays it more straight and strict - that is: normally, very standardly - and unlike his typical, more idiosynchratic style, seems to be a virtue... The same phenomenen seems to concern anything rhythmn-oriented, "funky" playing by Ronnie Wood. You don't hear those guitar parts put in the universe of great rhythm/funky guitar, and to be evaluated critically there. But with Taylor's lead guitar... gosh, the man is always under a critical examination, and is supposed to do something striking and distinguished everytime he touches the guitar.... not that the standards for 'great rhythm guitar' are seemingly lower than for 'great lead guitar', that actually alone says something of Taylor's actual greatness as a player, shared both by his admirers and, without they realizing it, by pure "Woodists"...>grinning smiley<

- Doxa

Here's some nice standard guitar motifs to hear: Taylor playing with Preston during the 1973 European Stones tour as a support act. They do some Beatles-tunes that are not very well structured but sound rather well:



Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 19, 2013 13:54

Quote
kleermaker
Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
You don't have to get everything, just like I won't get your enormous appreciation for Winter, with its strings, standard guitar motifs and even more unstructured build-up as this one have.

Where the hell I can find more of those "standard guitar motifs"? That guitar is probably the most beautiful piece of lead guitar I have ever heard in my life. That fluidity, timing and finding exactly the right notes... Oh god! Pure guitar art!

A side observation: by among certain posters here - call them, say, "Woodists" - a typical feature I've seen is that with Mick Taylor - and with Brian Jones sometimes as well - pejoritive terms like "standard" (or the term then having a pejorative sense) or "simple", "easy to play", "nothing extraordinary", mainly referred to the technical side of playing, or a lack of genuine innovativity, are used, but whereas when Richards or Wood do something that sort of thing - simplicity, obviousness - that is a worth of praisal. "Straight to the point", "fits to the song", etc.......... So we can hear that "Had It With You" includes about the greatest rhythmn guitar ever played by anyone, even though 99.999% of the people ever listening to it do not hear anything else but a very ordinary rock rhythm guitar part, which anyone knowing anything of guitar can play. That Richards plays it more straight and strict - that is: normally, very standardly - and unlike his typical, more idiosynchratic style, seems to be a virtue... The same phenomenen seems to concern anything rhythmn-oriented, "funky" playing by Ronnie Wood. You don't hear those guitar parts put in the universe of great rhythm/funky guitar, and to be evaluated critically there. But with Taylor's lead guitar... gosh, the man is always under a critical examination, and is supposed to do something striking and distinguished everytime he touches the guitar.... not that the standards for 'great rhythm guitar' are seemingly lower than for 'great lead guitar', that actually alone says something of Taylor's actual greatness as a player, shared both by his admirers and, without they realizing it, by pure "Woodists"...>grinning smiley<

- Doxa

Here's some nice standard guitar motifs to hear: Taylor playing with Preston during the 1973 European Stones tour as a support act. They do some Beatles-tunes that are not very well structured but sound rather well:


Unstructured can be good indeed smileys with beer

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Posted by: Edward Twining ()
Date: September 19, 2013 15:20

Quote
DandelionPowderman


If it's the most beautiful piece of lead guitar you've ever heard - fine, more power to you! To me it's nothing special - a fill-in, with a fussy rock sound all the other 70s bands had at the time. I absolutely adore the guitar on Moonlight Mile, but that's how art works - we interpret it differently.

Dandelion, i don't agree with you fundamentally. However, i do feel 'Moonlight Mile' does have a more pronounced musical structure, where all the pieces are well mapped out in advance. 'Winter' strikes me a little more as a bare bones type of song in terms of its written structure and in terms of the music - with a sort of put everything into the pot, mix it up, and see what floats to the surface, sort of attitude. I think that may also be the case with a number of the other GOATS HEAD SOUP tracks as well, namely '100 years Ago', 'Can You Hear The Music?' and even perhaps the more sparse sounding 'Hide Your Love' too. That's maybe why the critics have always been a little less inclined to rate it as highly as the big four.

However, the Stones still had their faculties intact, even if their musical inspiration wasn't quite so focused. I fully agree with Doxa about the end result with regards to the Taylor solo, the strings, and all the other musical touches - it's very beautiful, very atmospheric, maybe even eclipsing 'Moonlight Mile', to a degree in some ways. Ultimately, though, 'Moonlight Mile' does seem a more 'definitive' song, if you understand my point.

Re: The Last Great Stones Song?
Date: September 19, 2013 15:33

Quote
Edward Twining
Quote
DandelionPowderman


If it's the most beautiful piece of lead guitar you've ever heard - fine, more power to you! To me it's nothing special - a fill-in, with a fussy rock sound all the other 70s bands had at the time. I absolutely adore the guitar on Moonlight Mile, but that's how art works - we interpret it differently.

Dandelion, i don't agree with you fundamentally. However, i do feel 'Moonlight Mile' does have a more pronounced musical structure, where all the pieces are well mapped out in advance. 'Winter' strikes me a little more as a bare bones type of song in terms of its written structure and in terms of the music - with a sort of put everything into the pot, mix it up, and see what floats to the surface, sort of attitude. I think that may also be the case with a number of the other GOATS HEAD SOUP tracks as well, namely '100 years Ago', 'Can You Hear The Music?' and even perhaps the more sparse sounding 'Hide Your Love' too. That's maybe why the critics have always been a little less inclined to rate it as highly as the big four.

However, the Stones still had their faculties intact, even if their musical inspiration wasn't quite so focused. I fully agree with Doxa about the end result with regards to the Taylor solo, the strings, and all the other musical touches - it's very beautiful, very atmospheric, maybe even eclipsing 'Moonlight Mile', to a degree in some ways. Ultimately, though, 'Moonlight Mile' does seem a more 'definitive' song, if you understand my point.

That was my point as well. There is a degree of improvisation in MM that is non-existing in Winter, though. It comes across to the listener that the music is being explored and developed on the spot. I don't get that feeling with Winter, which sounds more arranged to me. It is Mick's vocals that is unstructured - by that I mean there isn't really a chorus and a bridge in the song, and everything is up to him (a job he does very well, I must add). I just don't find the themes (which are all similar, btw) with the strings and the guitar very exciting or up-building. For me, they are the let-downs of the song.

We don't HAVE to agree, Edward - these are just my thoughts (and I know I'm probably in the minority here) smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-09-19 15:34 by DandelionPowderman.

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