The iron curtain would have fallen down peacefully without the pope from the communist block, without any pope at all actually. The system was totally economically exhausted and the USSR no longer had the power to keep control over his colonies, which we used to be.
Don’t underestimate the pope in this matter.Unfurtunatelly, totalitarian regimes aren’t destroyed by ideas.
Sure, somewhere the fall of communism had a strong religious element, as in Poland, somewhere not at all, and the results were the same. It was not thanks to the diplomacy the system fell.

25.000.000 - 100.000 = 24.900.000.

Mathijs

Child Of Clay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it's dangerous to have sex with the Pope, he won't
> wear a condom


hohoho .... he won't have sex either ... !!

Mathijs anyone can have a theroy - just odd how you always seem to migrate to the dumbass ones, IMO.

P.S. being a nice guy has little relevance to this thread....even a nice guy can be dumb as stump. I'm living proof...

Sorry, skippy....your post should say dumb as a stump.....It is proof. LMAO!!!!

All in fun.

skippy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs anyone can have a theroy - just odd how
> you always seem to migrate to the dumbass ones,
> IMO.
>

The nice things about theories is that one can have a discussion. This far I haven't seen your thoughts!

Mathijs

Mathijs, totally agree with you, as for Pope, and as for 9/11 too. It is necessary to read a lot of books in order to make sense of all these facts. Discussion is creative: the result implies dialectical communication. Maybe Ratzinger should be an image from Plato. The world is disenchanted, with or without Ratzinger, and I think world will become even more desacred thanks to this kind of person. As for me, I'm a nostalgic from the enlighted reason, but today, there's only one reason: the reason of commodities, market reason, technological reason. We must think we are lucky for living in the first world, at least we have something to eat. Catholic religion support the late capitalism, whose corolary implies poverty, unequality, terrorism and the globalization of violence. That's not the better of the worlds, as Leibniz used to believe. That's an postmodern world, and Ratzinger is just a foreseen product.
Regards.

Mathijs may seem to court controversy but that doesn't necessarily make his arguments invalid. Limiting discussion to just the Pope issue, I am in general agreement with him. The 25 million figure is not sensible to throw at John Paul as it is the overall total of Aids deaths. The actual amount of Catholics who died (& continue to die) who could have been saved by a simple condom is far smaller than this. However even a conservative estimate of these fatalities would probably be a few million especially considering the swathes of African Catholics amongst the dead. The Vatican in general and the Pope in particular do I think have blood on their hands on a huge scale as they did have the power to influence most of these people. If JP could have put his famous compassion over his rigid religious dogma and said contraceptives are now acceptable, in fact encouraged by the Catholic Church, millions of people could still be alive. How this man can possibly be considered for sainthood in the light of this crime against humanity beggars belief and shows up organised religion for the appalling and absurd circus it really is.

Oh he didn't single-handedly end the cold war either: I think you'll find Mr Gorbachev (yes that godless atheist) contributed rather more to the process than the Pope.

This statement by Mathijs is perhaps the most stupid one so far, on par with Manhattans post in the quite recent thread about the death of John Paul II:


"The Vatican, and the Vatican alone, is responsible for 25 million people dying of AIDS."


Call the police.

Mathijs as for a dialoge on the list of examples, we have had those discussion before. I have nothing new to add and from your "short story" post I didn't see where you did either.

For a scientist you seem to have trouble deducing. As for my thoughts, I would think it quite clear my stating that your positions on said issues, had lead me to believe that you are a dunce, would be self-explanitory.

I would add that my preferences tend to cause me to lean toward sources that support my predetermined stances. Perhaps your prejudist against religion and the United States may have some influence on the sources of knowlege you seek as well.

There needs to be a balance between reason and faith, and thats where most of the one-sided people go wrong. They shut themselves off from the other side of the debate. Only the narrow-minded ones (scientists...and/or extreme fundamentalists) are missing the whole point of the mysteries of life. They can't even see or appreciate the other side of the coin without a heated arguement. When one claims to be holier than thou, or more scientifically knowledgable than the other, thats when I tune them out and shut them off.

Pope Darth Vader-
nope! Dun think he
likes the Stones.
No way.

It's interesting to observe that many of you disagree with Mathijs' views. Why not bring in some advocacy in your answers?

The Pope:
Of course, this is a rather loose statement. But if you reflect on the issue - old rules, which do NOT fit into the modern world of today, contribute to a more unsecure life and a significant number of ill people and deaths. Disagree?

9/11:
"They deserved what they got" is stretching it a bit too far, but foreseeing some hostile action is another matter - disagree?

US economy:
This is a well-known fact, supported by leading economists, as Mathijs points out - disagree? If you do - do some research and come back.

Pol Pot:
Nothing wrong with Mathijs' statement here - like it or not. He's a bit arrogant about it, but the essence is correct. The same goes for Bin Laden and Hussein. It's all about trusting the wrong people at an earlier stage. Disagree? Check the facts.

Mathijs,

Religions were founded to allay the fears of the masses due to things they didn't understand (like a volcanic eruption for example). Religious leaders,
soon after, recognized they could be used as a tool to supress contradictory opinion, so your assessment is essentially on the mark. Religions were largely founded on distorted interpretations of world phenomina.

Having said that, religion as followed by moderate, level-headed people all over the world is the primary stabilzer of society on earth. People who go to church and embrace family values or community service keep societies all over the earth from anarchy. I don't practice a religion, but I respect people who do.

Religious fanatics perpetuate chaos. Bitter people who rant against the existence religion perpetuate chaos. The stable folks who embrace family and community values keep society from falling apart.

<The stable folks who embrace family and community values keep society from falling apart.>

Let's not forget that there are many non-religious people in this category too

Family and community values have nothing to do with religion?

BOBM, I don't see how you connect embracing family and communicity values to religion. I am deeply anti-religious, but embrace family values. In fact, as I have been born and raised in a Christian society (be it very liberal) I can hardly call myself a non-Christian. But, I don't see the need of a religion to be a have a "good character" or to be a "good person". My parents taught me all the values of respect and being a good person, without any religion involved. In fact, I would go further and say that religion preaches values that are wrong in these times. All the issues of abortion, divorce, euthanasia, homosexuality, women's rights, circumstition of women (don't know the English phrase) and blood revange are in many societies "dictated" and judge by the local religion, most of them being 1000's years old. I see more problems in religious families than in non-religious families (like a friend of min had to tell his parents he's gay. The answer of mom and dad was to throw him out of the house and pray for him). Luckily for me I live in a country where religion plays a minor factor (but due to the growth of Muslim immigrants the issue again is getting bigger).

I respect anyone who practices a religion, and even I do find all the mystic and rites of the Vatican interesting to see. But, as I said before, my problem lies with the influence of the Vatican in countries that are not as free as Western-Europe or the US. We can judge for ouselves whether we obey the pope, but when you are 15 years old and live in Brazil you don't have the choice! You don't have the choice to be informed about AIDS, so you can make up your own mind about having unprotected sex. In Brazil, when you get pregnent or sick THEN you are informed that something like AIDS exists, and that you recieved it through that hot-shot from 10-th grade who screwes 4 chicks a week. Instead, what do the cardinals say? "a condomn doesn,t work against aids, as the virus will leak though little holes". This is true by the way, this is the official statement of the Vatican.

That, to me, is a bloody crime. Truly a bloody crime.

Mathijs
ps Dandelion: one day, when I am as old as you are, I hope to be able to write a little less blunt and arrogant. I know very well that my statements can sound very bold and blunt, but I do mean what I write.

ps 2: again again again: I am not anti-American. BUT, as the US is the biggest power in this world with THE leading economy, and Holland can be regarded as a very liberal state of the US, it's only natural that the arrows are pointed towards the US. If Monaco would have been the biggest power, I would have ranted towards them.

BOBM wrote:
"Having said that, religion as followed by moderate, level-headed people all over the world is the primary stabilzer of society on earth. People who go to church and embrace family values or community service keep societies all over the earth from anarchy. I don't practice a religion, but I respect people who do."
-------------------------------------------------------

Well, well, I don't see why people who doesn't go to church but embrace family values or community services is not included in your statement, BOBM. I mean, the condition to keep societies from anarchy would be embracing family values or servicing community, not going to church, don't you think.

And about the Catholic Church (and being spaniard I quite know what does living in a majority-catholic country mean) I don't understand why
1.- Using a condom to prevent AIDS,
2.- Having sexual relations without intending to procreate,
3.- Allowing homosexual people to get married,
4.- Letting women participate in the Catholic Church decisions,
5.- And so on..

all these things are treated like an threat to the society.

I believe Catholic Church has kept sooooooo far away from the society that most of young people in the so-called Catholic countries are very far away from the church. At least here in Spain. Our italian and french friends here in the board could comment, but I think people from "non-catholic-countries" are generally more religious than people in what you could believe are more religious countries.

[There'll be no wedding today...]

Dandelion:

Absolutely. There are many non-religious people in that category, including me.

Religion often serves as the vehicle for interaction. The moderates I speak of benefit from the postive aspects of religion but don't let it control their lives.

I believe some people who practice religion are skeptical of the existence of God, and some people who believe in God don't practice religion.

I was just listening to "Los Angeles is Burning" by Bad Religion. It's such a simple tune and yet so darn effective.

<ps Dandelion: one day, when I am as old as you are, I hope to be able to write a little less blunt and arrogant. I know very well that my statements can sound very bold and blunt, but I do mean what I write.>

I'll check if you've calmed down a bit in 2 or 3 years then

I just looove the new Pope. He thinks that moral values should never be dealt with in a haphazard way. I respect him for not being an opportunist, anyway. Too bad I got this sudden urge for unprotected hardcore sex right now.......

Mathijs:

I think I will have to speak only for the United States. I can tell you that many, many Americans who practice religion do so out of a sense of tradition, a sense of order, and a sense of community. They don't take the tenets to heart for the most part (especially in the northen half of the U.S.). I was raised a Catholic and when I got married many years ago my fiance and I had to be personally interviewed by the Priest, who made us swear not to practice birth control. Of course, we already were practicing it. I say I should speak only for the U.S., because the other posts in these threads make me think Religion to those who practice it is much more serious than in the U.S. I am ignornant of the facts, so I don't want to express an opinion.

As far as how you view the American people, what can I say. I am one of them.
Many times I have wanted to convince you how wrong you are about us. I am a moderate to conservative American, and if you could ask my opinion on a thousand details, you would be surprised how much I see things the same way you do.

Not to change the subject, but you should reconsider ending FTS, at least until you record all the Stones songs I want to hear live but they won't play.

Alot of organized religion is based upon fear, ignorance and
superstition. I think we'll see catholicism increasingly
become a third world developing nation focused
authoritarian movement until they catch up
with us in two or three hundred years
and then it will disappear/ become
irrelevant there too. As will too
hopefully most of the others,
Christian, Muslim what have
you.

I survived growing up catholic, and have
no more time for all that. Good riddance.
New Pope Darth Vader, Rottweiler of the
Faith just seals tight it's irrelevance-
too bad in one way perhaps; god and
spirituality are alright, it's just
religion I can't stand. But then
they don't have to be one and
the same and when one cuts oneself
free from all the b.s it can have a
liberating effect. So perhaps the spirit
does move in mysterious way. I can't see
him having anything but an alienating/
divisive effect......................................

If everyone would do as the Vatican says and only practise sex with your spouse then there would be no AIDS. The AIDS-problem exists because of people NOT living as the Vatican says. In other words, the pope is right in this matter. We need more conservatism and less liberalism in the family politics.

Bars wrote:
>>>"The AIDS-problem exists because of people NOT living as the Vatican says"

Not only extra-marital sex is the way to get AIDS...

>>>"We need more conservatism and less liberalism in the family politics"

WTF?????????????????????????? We need more condoms!!!!!! People won't stop having sex despite what the Vatican says...

[There'll be no wedding today...]

The Pope has some cool hats, maybe Keith can borrow one to cover his bald spot. Is this Pope.com or a Stones board?

It's a Vibrato board, sometimes

[There'll be no wedding today...]

Bruno,

no sex before marriage = no AIDS

Only sex within marriage = no AIDS

In this ideal world, which is not far from the Vaticans ideal world, there would be no AIDS.

If the Vatican would encourage young kids to practise sex and then prohibit aborts, condoms and information, then I would be really upset. I quite sure though that the Vatican does NOT encourage teenagers to live a promiscuous life in the third world.

Bars, mate, we're in the 21st century.

99% young people today:
No sex before marriage = you're desperately looking forward to have it yet...

I don't have an opinion about if it is sane or insane, but I believe it's quite close to the reality.

[There'll be no wedding today...]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-04-22 19:39 by bruno.

Bärs - your arguments are not valid in our reality.

People simply do have sex before marriage, some people don't marry at all as you probably know. You call it the ideal world if nobody has sex before marriage - I guess that was a joke.
The role of the catholic church should be to help finding answers to the problems of the modern society, not to insist on outdated moral ideas.