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Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 8, 2015 21:01

Quote
blivet
It's Craig Braun's redrawing of Pasche's design that looks so much like the girl's mouth in Alan Aldridge's illustration. Pasche's design is similar, and he may have been influenced by Aldridge's drawing, but Braun's version looks like he deliberately decided to make a copy of Aldridge's work in Pasche's style.

I have had direct contact with Craig Braun. The issue is that he trolls the internet looking for any mention of "Ernie Cefalu" and immediately pounces on anything. Why? Why is he so bitter and negative? Answer: Because Ernie left the employ of Craig Braun after being jerked around by him to create Pacific Eye And Ear. He went on to run a very successful agency and designed over 200 album covers, and Craig Braun has been pissed at him ever since. Craig was challenged on his claims and went completely silent.

I've sat with Ernie at his place. He has all of this artwork around, just all pinned up. To think that "oh, the stuff over there, that's all real, but the Stones thing on the left is faked" is just ludicrous. I've seen letters from Shep Gordon refuting Craig Brauns claims over Alice Cooper as well.

I wouldn't believe a shred of what Craig Braun says, he just needs to get over it and move on in life.

I was going to just shelve the story. Ernie and I both agreed that "who cares" about all this, "it was something I did over 40 years ago. Neither John Pasche nor I give a crap about it. Only Craig seems to want to create this controversy".

Here's a link to my part I story with Ernie. It's not even about the tongue logo, there's a one-line reference. This is what Craig Braun went off on....

Conversations with Ernie Cefalu - Part I

What happened to the tongue logo argument?
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 8, 2015 06:20

Did it get deleted? I have the final proof as to who was responsible for it. Straight from "Supermensch" Shep Gordon.

Re: What happened to the tongue logo argument?
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: September 8, 2015 06:30

Irrelevant. Everyone knows it was John Pasche.

Re: What happened to the tongue logo argument?
Posted by: Plink ()
Date: September 8, 2015 07:03

Roller99 - good get thumbs up I'm definitely interested in what Supermesnch Shep has to say on the subject and I assume others are as well. Will you kindly post the info here?

Re: What happened to the tongue logo argument?
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 8, 2015 07:43

Apparently you don't speak for "everyone" and don't know the true story.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-09-08 07:44 by roller99.

Re: What happened to the tongue logo argument?
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: September 8, 2015 08:23

Here is the thread you are looking for. Of course we are interested in what Shep Gorgon has to say about it! Especially if it is truly new information.

My conclusion was that both artists worked in parallel on the project, Pasche's art used for the SF record and Ceflau's used for other merch at the time.

[www.iorr.org]

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: blivet ()
Date: September 9, 2015 00:44

Quote
roller99
Craig was challenged on his claims and went completely silent.

I don't understand. He doesn't seem to be claiming to have done anything beyond have someone on his team redraw Pasche's design based on a small, unclear facsimile copy sent from London.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: September 9, 2015 02:31

Quote
blivet
Quote
GasLightStreet
Ernie Cefalu's logo is ugly. He talks too much. He probably stole the idea and said it was originally his.

One thing he said struck a chord with me. He mentioned that the company he did the design for had the rights to use it for about 18 months (something like that -- I'm to lazy to review the video), and they produced a lot of t-shirts, patches and stickers. I remember those products from when I was a kid, with the "ugly" variant of the Stones' logo with each tooth outlined and no reflections on the upper lip. I always sort of assumed it was some kind of knock-off that was just different enough to avoid any legal issues, but if Cefalu is telling the truth, it was actually the original version of the logo before Pasche improved it.

We've really got no reason to doubt Cefalu, his stories are pretty detailed and as roller points out, he as had tons of other success with rock and roll artwork. Besides his stories name, people, companies, times and places which I doubt someone would do if they were lying.

But I don't know if Ceflau ever says his version was done before Pasche's just when and how he came up with it. It's clear Cefalu never saw Pasche's version beforehand to me and bit less clear if Pasche ever saw Cefau's version, imo.

Marshall Chess will probably take the secret to his grave. There was probably some business interests/benefits involved with getting Pasche's copyrighted and owned and declaring it the first.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: September 9, 2015 06:27

How there can be any controversy about who did what first is absurd. It's only on iorr.org that it exists. It's been well documented that John Pasche came up with the logo. Cefalu did a variation on it later.

There's nothing to argue.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 9, 2015 15:25

Quote
GasLightStreet
How there can be any controversy about who did what first is absurd. It's only on iorr.org that it exists. It's been well documented that John Pasche came up with the logo. Cefalu did a variation on it later.

There's nothing to argue.

Really? Where's your proof? Fact checking? Did you speak to any of the people involved?

Know what you're talking about before you post.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 9, 2015 15:29

Marshall may take the secret to his grave, but he really doesn't care, and the fact is he was high most of the time. His wife however won't take the secret to her grave, you should see her posts on FB. I'll withold opinion here. The funny thing is that Ernie and John have been in contact and agree on this. Only gaslightstreet and Craig Braun seem to differ.

Funny seeing as gaslightstreet is just some fan who has no involvement in this. At least I've talked to many of the people involved.

Gaslightstreet is probably Craig Braun. Whomever he is, he seems bitter and misinformed. Pity.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 9, 2015 15:35

Quote
Naturalust
Quote
blivet
Quote
GasLightStreet
Ernie Cefalu's logo is ugly. He talks too much. He probably stole the idea and said it was originally his.

One thing he said struck a chord with me. He mentioned that the company he did the design for had the rights to use it for about 18 months (something like that -- I'm to lazy to review the video), and they produced a lot of t-shirts, patches and stickers. I remember those products from when I was a kid, with the "ugly" variant of the Stones' logo with each tooth outlined and no reflections on the upper lip. I always sort of assumed it was some kind of knock-off that was just different enough to avoid any legal issues, but if Cefalu is telling the truth, it was actually the original version of the logo before Pasche improved it.

We've really got no reason to doubt Cefalu, his stories are pretty detailed and as roller points out, he as had tons of other success with rock and roll artwork. Besides his stories name, people, companies, times and places which I doubt someone would do if they were lying.

But I don't know if Ceflau ever says his version was done before Pasche's just when and how he came up with it. It's clear Cefalu never saw Pasche's version beforehand to me and bit less clear if Pasche ever saw Cefau's version, imo.

Marshall Chess will probably take the secret to his grave. There was probably some business interests/benefits involved with getting Pasche's copyrighted and owned and declaring it the first.

Once again, Naturalust is correct. A very informed theory. It's all about owning the copyright. I don't know why others have such a vitriolic and seemingly protective opinion on this. One guy did it, as an employee of a firm, and then the firm handed it to another guy, so they wouldn't have to pay royalties to the first guy. And they ended up passing it to a third guy so nobody ever got royalties.

Gee, that's never happened in business before, right? The Stones were just some group of clueless musicians who had no idea about business dealings, right?

You and I don't always agree on everything Naturalust, but I always say that your opinions are well-informed, well-written, and you seem to know a lot about not only the Stones, but music in general.

Kudos to you for having an open mind and a solid understanding of how things work in this world!

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 9, 2015 15:43

Here's a letter from Shep Gordon regarding Craig Braun's shameless attempt at stealing credit for an Alice Cooper album cover. It's such a pity that people like gaslightstreet have bought Craig's bitter diatribes over the years. Oh well, I guess some people think they know better than the actual people who were involved. Ernie was right when he said that some of these people are just trolls.


Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 9, 2015 15:46

Quote
GasLightStreet
How there can be any controversy about who did what first is absurd. It's only on iorr.org that it exists. It's been well documented that John Pasche came up with the logo. Cefalu did a variation on it later.

There's nothing to argue.

Sure Mr. "bold my text so you know I mean business"...

That's why there are pictures of the actual members of the Stones wearing shirts with Ernie's design BEFORE the second design had been released/before Sticky Fingers had made it to pressing. But go ahead and ignore that fact too. Sleep well in your complete and blissful ignorance of the facts.

Night night.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: September 9, 2015 15:47

Quote
Irix
Direct comparison:



Left: Alan Aldridge Illustration 1969 - Right: Tongue&Lips logo, Sticky Fingers 1st US-Edition 1971

smoking smiley

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: September 9, 2015 17:00

Einstein


Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: September 9, 2015 18:05

Quote
roller99

That's why there are pictures of the actual members of the Stones wearing shirts with Ernie's design BEFORE the second design had been released/before Sticky Fingers had made it to pressing. [...]

This may be - but Ernie Cefalu stated clearly that he has done his version in 1971, while the Victoria and Albert Museum (London, UK) stated that the version by John Pasche was done in 1970 .... confused smiley


Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 9, 2015 18:50

Quote
Irix
Quote
roller99

That's why there are pictures of the actual members of the Stones wearing shirts with Ernie's design BEFORE the second design had been released/before Sticky Fingers had made it to pressing. [...]

This may be - but Ernie Cefalu stated clearly that he has done his version in 1971, while the Victoria and Albert Museum (London, UK) stated that the version by John Pasche was done in 1970 .... confused smiley


That's bad punctuation, he didn't create it in 1971, he tried to retrieve it in 1971.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: September 9, 2015 19:00

Quote
roller99

That's bad punctuation, he didn't create it in 1971, he tried to retrieve it in 1971.

We should believe this? Seriously .... confused smiley

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: blivet ()
Date: September 9, 2015 19:09

Quote
roller99
Marshall may take the secret to his grave, but he really doesn't care, and the fact is he was high most of the time. His wife however won't take the secret to her grave, you should see her posts on FB.

Could you provide a link to these posts? You are referring to things as if they are well known, but this is all brand new to me.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: September 9, 2015 20:17

Thanks for your kind words roller. It's cool that you have researched this issue a bit deeper. At one time I read everything I could find on the issue and came up with a similar conclusion about what likely happened with the two designs.

I've also pointed out that since Cefalu was working for an agency and directed by Marshall Chess and Pasche seemed to be working directly with Jagger, it's likely Pasche had an advantage in the whole chain of command concerning band decisions.

Not sure why GSL is so determined to discredit Cefalu here. Both artist deserve credit for their work. I think it's likely Pasche holds on to the issue more than Cefalu since he seems like the less accomplished of the two artists, certainly in terms of album and rock and roll art. No doubt at this point he will hold on to his assertion that he was first and we will likely never find the truth about the copyright date and other business considerations which certainly effected the story and outcome.

I do like Pasche's tongue art a bit better but Cefalu has done some other stuff which is pretty damn amazing. I notice Ernie posted a sweet comment on your blog site, that was nice! Obviously you made a good impression on him and it was indeed a nice article. Good work.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 9, 2015 20:54

Quote
Naturalust
Thanks for your kind words roller. It's cool that you have researched this issue a bit deeper. At one time I read everything I could find on the issue and came up with a similar conclusion about what likely happened with the two designs.

I've also pointed out that since Cefalu was working for an agency and directed by Marshall Chess and Pasche seemed to be working directly with Jagger, it's likely Pasche had an advantage in the whole chain of command concerning band decisions.

Not sure why GSL is so determined to discredit Cefalu here. Both artist deserve credit for their work. I think it's likely Pasche holds on to the issue more than Cefalu since he seems like the less accomplished of the two artists, certainly in terms of album and rock and roll art. No doubt at this point he will hold on to his assertion that he was first and we will likely never find the truth about the copyright date and other business considerations which certainly effected the story and outcome.

I do like Pasche's tongue art a bit better but Cefalu has done some other stuff which is pretty damn amazing. I notice Ernie posted a sweet comment on your blog site, that was nice! Obviously you made a good impression on him and it was indeed a nice article. Good work.

You should be a writer Naturalust, you have a way with words. I am kind of close to the topic, and I think you shed a perfectly unbiased opinion on this, and your words are very much appreciated. Thank you so much. Ernie and John Pasche actually have a laugh over all of this. It boils down to two different designs, nobody "copied" or ripped off anyone, and if you talk to Ernie, he's like "who cares, this is the way it works in the art world". He does have over 200 album covers to his credit.

Thanks again for your comments. Swiss was right, you are a nice guy!

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 9, 2015 21:16

Quote
blivet
Quote
roller99
Marshall may take the secret to his grave, but he really doesn't care, and the fact is he was high most of the time. His wife however won't take the secret to her grave, you should see her posts on FB.

Could you provide a link to these posts? You are referring to things as if they are well known, but this is all brand new to me.

Here are a few links:

http://www.undercover.fm/news/16685-who-designed-the-rolling-stones-lips-logo

http://rockpopgallery.typepad.com/rockpop_gallery_news/2009/07/uncovered-interview-part-2-rolling-stones-lips-logo-by-ernie-cefalu.html

And my story on the role of the creative director in the album cover art world:

[thelosangelesbeat.com]

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: September 9, 2015 21:19

It's the specific design -- not the concept of an illustrated tongue and lips -- that's what makes the Stones' logo design unique and copyrighted.

Let's suppose that Mick Jagger had proposed his idea of designing a cool symbol using a tongue and lips, he could easily have had more than one designer working up comps simultaneously... to choose which one he liked best.

Who drew a tongue with lips first is not really that important.



Can you pick out which is the Rolling Stones logo?


A


B


C

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: September 9, 2015 21:24

Another tongue and lips design... No relation to the Stones logo... Just a coincidence...


McDonald's coupon

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: blivet ()
Date: September 9, 2015 22:17

Quote
roller99
Quote
blivet
Quote
roller99
Marshall may take the secret to his grave, but he really doesn't care, and the fact is he was high most of the time. His wife however won't take the secret to her grave, you should see her posts on FB.

Could you provide a link to these posts? You are referring to things as if they are well known, but this is all brand new to me.

Here are a few links:

http://www.undercover.fm/news/16685-who-designed-the-rolling-stones-lips-logo

http://rockpopgallery.typepad.com/rockpop_gallery_news/2009/07/uncovered-interview-part-2-rolling-stones-lips-logo-by-ernie-cefalu.html

And my story on the role of the creative director in the album cover art world:

[thelosangelesbeat.com]

Thanks so much. Diane Chess is certainly being very mysterious about it for some reason, but Ernie Cefalu's description of how the design came about at Craig Braun's offices, and who did what when, seems pretty straightforward. I guess Jagger liked what he saw but wanted a more polished version, which got sent back to Braun, who had it redrawn again.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: NICOS ()
Date: September 9, 2015 22:30



__________________________

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: September 9, 2015 22:44

Waaa!

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: September 10, 2015 00:20

Quote
blivet
Quote
roller99
Quote
blivet
Quote
roller99
Marshall may take the secret to his grave, but he really doesn't care, and the fact is he was high most of the time. His wife however won't take the secret to her grave, you should see her posts on FB.

Could you provide a link to these posts? You are referring to things as if they are well known, but this is all brand new to me.

Here are a few links:

http://www.undercover.fm/news/16685-who-designed-the-rolling-stones-lips-logo

http://rockpopgallery.typepad.com/rockpop_gallery_news/2009/07/uncovered-interview-part-2-rolling-stones-lips-logo-by-ernie-cefalu.html

And my story on the role of the creative director in the album cover art world:

[thelosangelesbeat.com]

Thanks so much. Diane Chess is certainly being very mysterious about it for some reason, but Ernie Cefalu's description of how the design came about at Craig Braun's offices, and who did what when, seems pretty straightforward. I guess Jagger liked what he saw but wanted a more polished version, which got sent back to Braun, who had it redrawn again.

Yes, correct. I can't comment publicly on Ms. Chess's comments, but the rest is pretty straight forward. Basically Ernie did the design, and was sitting in a room with Marshall Chess. Chess took the design upstairs and gave it to Pasche and told him to give it "more animation". If you talk to Ernie, he'll tell you that he likes Pasche's version better than his own. So the powers that be wanted to both modify his version, and wanted a bit of obfuscation on who had done it. None of this is a big deal to the artists. The only reason Craig Braun pops up trying to throw garbage on this is because he's still pissed off at Ernie for leaving his company to start Pacific Eye and Ear and becoming a huge success. I may just post the email he sent me on my article.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: September 10, 2015 01:00

Quote
roller99

Basically Ernie did the design, and was sitting in a room with Marshall Chess. Chess took the design upstairs and gave it to Pasche and told him to give it "more animation". [...]

According to the Uncovered Interview this must have been from February 1971 on:

"I remember it was a really cold rainy Friday at the beginning of February 1971, and Jack had set up a 2:00pm meeting for me at the Concept Packaging offices at 53rd and Madison. As I headed uptown, I felt like a kid that was on his way to the first day at a new school, ready to encounter new people and surroundings. All I was told by Jack was that Craig knew who I was, what I had done with Superstar and that they were excited about meeting with me."

But John Pasche has been contacted by the Stones already in April 1970:


Detailed object description: Victoria and Albert Museum

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