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Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: August 5, 2017 20:36

Quote
Irix
Quote
georgie48

It's not (was never) Ernie's (and since the Braun deal of 3 years was finished decades ago, not Braun's either). It was and is owned by The Rolling Stones .....

Do you mean in terms of ownership?

If so, then yes - because Ernie Cefalu was "only" a employee of the CraigBraunInc. (or the subsidiaries like Sound Packaging or Rockreations) and Craig Braun itself was the licensee for Musidor, the licensing company for the Rolling Stones.


"LICKS ® BY ROCKREATIONS TM MUSIDOR N.V." stamped on back:

Yes Irix,
What you say and show is completely correct.
As far as designing rights are concerned, if someone created something all by him/herself from "scratch", that person could claim to be the designer, but still depends on his/her employer whether it will be recognized as such. When a designer is asked by his/her employer to add or modify something to or on an already exciting basic design (like f.i. a tongue to a mouth), the person is professionally still a designer, but can in no way claim to "have designed" the final outcome. Drawn, yes, but design?
How many designers do you guess (don't try please) have been involved with all the variations on the official Stones logo even since the early 80s? If all of them would speak out, well? Luckily the world is not only excisting of ego's who try anything to promote themselves cool smiley.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: August 5, 2017 20:37

Quote
Irix
Craig Braun's personal story about designing the Tongue&Lips-Logo (8-Dec-2016):

"I had decided that because it was the Rolling Stones' first release under their own label after leaving Decca Records (London in U.S.), to use this logo on the cover", Craig says. "Mick had commissioned a young art school student [John Pasche, who has since earned six figures for his sketches] in London to design a logo, but he had not completed a design. He'd only completed some sketches, rough sketches of it. And Marshall Chess [...] was in London, and I said to him, 'I want to put the design on the inner sleeve.' He said, 'Well, all I have is a rubber stamp from the sketch!' So I said for him to stamp it a few times, put it on a fax which, on a thermal fax machine, the quality is just shit, but I could see the silhouette of it, where the art student was going, very fuzzy, and about 3/4 of an inch, so I blew that up to about 12" and I had an illustrator working for me and I said, 'I want you to re-draft this for me.' After many a back-and-forth, trial-and-error fleshing-out with the illustrator, the Rolling Stones' tongue and lip logo as we now know it was being hatched."

More: [www.Amoeba.com] .

Right there, the "illustrator working for me", is proof that Ernie did it. Both Pasche and Cefalu aren't debating which came first. And this quote by Braun pretty much obliviates Braun's claims elsewhere that he did it alone. What we have are 2 different versions, both official and independent. Ever hear the story of how Compaq reverse engineered the IBM PC? A guy in the middle saw the design and described it to another, with the result being that the finished product was almost identical, without the second designer ever having seen the IBM, thus isolating him from lawsuits.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: August 5, 2017 21:00

Quote
roller99
Quote
Irix
Craig Braun's personal story about designing the Tongue&Lips-Logo (8-Dec-2016):

"I had decided that because it was the Rolling Stones' first release under their own label after leaving Decca Records (London in U.S.), to use this logo on the cover", Craig says. "Mick had commissioned a young art school student [John Pasche, who has since earned six figures for his sketches] in London to design a logo, but he had not completed a design. He'd only completed some sketches, rough sketches of it. And Marshall Chess [...] was in London, and I said to him, 'I want to put the design on the inner sleeve.' He said, 'Well, all I have is a rubber stamp from the sketch!' So I said for him to stamp it a few times, put it on a fax which, on a thermal fax machine, the quality is just shit, but I could see the silhouette of it, where the art student was going, very fuzzy, and about 3/4 of an inch, so I blew that up to about 12" and I had an illustrator working for me and I said, 'I want you to re-draft this for me.' After many a back-and-forth, trial-and-error fleshing-out with the illustrator, the Rolling Stones' tongue and lip logo as we now know it was being hatched."

More: [www.Amoeba.com] .

Right there, the "illustrator working for me", is proof that Ernie did it. Both Pasche and Cefalu aren't debating which came first. And this quote by Braun pretty much obliviates Braun's claims elsewhere that he did it alone. What we have are 2 different versions, both official and independent. Ever hear the story of how Compaq reverse engineered the IBM PC? A guy in the middle saw the design and described it to another, with the result being that the finished product was almost identical, without the second designer ever having seen the IBM, thus isolating him from lawsuits.

Nice try, roller99 cool smiley, but ..... the "illustrator working for me" was not Ernie, but Mr. V assisted by Braun and Mr. D. And it concerns the famous "USA" logo and ... it was done before Ernie joined. You can ask Ernie how many people were working for Braun's company. I wonder if he knows. Certainly "not only Ernie" ...

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: August 5, 2017 22:40

Quote
roller99

Right there, the "illustrator working for me", is proof that Ernie did it. Both Pasche and Cefalu aren't debating which came first. And this quote by Braun pretty much obliviates Braun's claims elsewhere that he did it alone. What we have are 2 different versions, both official and independent.

The Tongue&Lips-Logo as we know it from Sticky Fingers' 1st North American Edition 1971 was not designed by Ernie Cefalu nor by Craig Braun personally.

Ernie Cefalu: "For the record, I really didn't know that there was going to be a Lips and Tongue logo on the final album sleeve - the only time I saw any album art before it hit the stores was in Craig's office that Saturday when Marshall [Chess] showed me the comp and I had suggested that they use a real zipper. As for why they had a second version done for the final album art, it is a mystery to me. The logo that I did the finish on and that was used on all the merchandising was done by me well before the end of February of 1971." -- [rockpopgallery.typepad.com]

There're three official and quite independent Tongue&Lips-Logos: John Pasche's version (inner sleeve of Sticky Fingers' international Edition 1971), then Ernie Cefalu's version (for the Licks merchandise 1971 + other RS stuff later on) and last but not least the now most famous version as used on the inner sleeve of Sticky Fingers' 1st North American Edition 1971.

The question is: who had done (+ when) the version from the inner sleeve of Sticky Fingers' 1st North American Edition 1971 - and also: where does the striking resemblance to the 'Day Tripper'-Illustration (by Alan Aldridge, 1969) come from?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-05 23:00 by Irix.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: August 5, 2017 23:24

Quote
Irix
Quote
roller99

Right there, the "illustrator working for me", is proof that Ernie did it. Both Pasche and Cefalu aren't debating which came first. And this quote by Braun pretty much obliviates Braun's claims elsewhere that he did it alone. What we have are 2 different versions, both official and independent.

The Tongue&Lips-Logo as we know it from Sticky Fingers' 1st North American Edition 1971 was not designed by Ernie Cefalu nor by Craig Braun personally.

Ernie Cefalu: "For the record, I really didn't know that there was going to be a Lips and Tongue logo on the final album sleeve - the only time I saw any album art before it hit the stores was in Craig's office that Saturday when Marshall [Chess] showed me the comp and I had suggested that they use a real zipper. As for why they had a second version done for the final album art, it is a mystery to me. The logo that I did the finish on and that was used on all the merchandising was done by me well before the end of February of 1971." -- [rockpopgallery.typepad.com]

There're three official and quite independent Tongue&Lips-Logos: John Pasche's version (inner sleeve of Sticky Fingers' international Edition 1971), then Ernie Cefalu's version (for the Licks merchandise 1971 + other RS stuff later on) and last but not least the now most famous version as used on the inner sleeve of Sticky Fingers' 1st North American Edition 1971.

The question is: who had done (+ when) the version from the inner sleeve of Sticky Fingers' 1st North American Edition 1971 - and also: where does the striking resemblance to the 'Day Tripper'-Illustration (by Alan Aldridge, 1969) come from?

Don't worry Irix.
The answer to your questions is known. Some remark of yours about who did or didn't do certain things, is, let's say "not completely correct", but that isn't really important.
But there are a few very important people, we all love, who are the key to the revelation of the truth, so be patient. Some things can not be told "at the wrong time or place" in order to avoid some to take advantage of it for their own benefit.
By the way, I like the remark "The logo I did the finish on ..." by Ernie cool smiley

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: August 6, 2017 03:50

Quote
georgie48
Quote
roller99
Quote
Irix
Craig Braun's personal story about designing the Tongue&Lips-Logo (8-Dec-2016):

"I had decided that because it was the Rolling Stones' first release under their own label after leaving Decca Records (London in U.S.), to use this logo on the cover", Craig says. "Mick had commissioned a young art school student [John Pasche, who has since earned six figures for his sketches] in London to design a logo, but he had not completed a design. He'd only completed some sketches, rough sketches of it. And Marshall Chess [...] was in London, and I said to him, 'I want to put the design on the inner sleeve.' He said, 'Well, all I have is a rubber stamp from the sketch!' So I said for him to stamp it a few times, put it on a fax which, on a thermal fax machine, the quality is just shit, but I could see the silhouette of it, where the art student was going, very fuzzy, and about 3/4 of an inch, so I blew that up to about 12" and I had an illustrator working for me and I said, 'I want you to re-draft this for me.' After many a back-and-forth, trial-and-error fleshing-out with the illustrator, the Rolling Stones' tongue and lip logo as we now know it was being hatched."

More: [www.Amoeba.com] .

Right there, the "illustrator working for me", is proof that Ernie did it. Both Pasche and Cefalu aren't debating which came first. And this quote by Braun pretty much obliviates Braun's claims elsewhere that he did it alone. What we have are 2 different versions, both official and independent. Ever hear the story of how Compaq reverse engineered the IBM PC? A guy in the middle saw the design and described it to another, with the result being that the finished product was almost identical, without the second designer ever having seen the IBM, thus isolating him from lawsuits.

Nice try, roller99 cool smiley, but ..... the "illustrator working for me" was not Ernie, but Mr. V assisted by Braun and Mr. D. And it concerns the famous "USA" logo and ... it was done before Ernie joined. You can ask Ernie how many people were working for Braun's company. I wonder if he knows. Certainly "not only Ernie" ...
We have an expression here in the USA, "put up or shut up". If you have some info on this, put it out there. I'm having a good laugh at all the historians here who think they know what's what, when Ernie worked at Craig Braun's. Do any of you think your words will ever be taken more seriously than his? Not here, and certainly not in the real world, and certainly not when industry titans have vouched for him. Unless you are Mick or Marshall Chess, it ain't gonna happen, cause you weren't there. Rebut this all is you want, it's just wind from windbags. And at some point, I'll talk to Mick about this....

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: August 6, 2017 11:02

Quote
roller99
I'll offer an olive branch here, because we're all here for the same reason; love of The Rolling Stones. I'm just trying to decode a mystery, and I think we should all be able to discuss this without resorting to accusations or heated arguments. So, if I offended, I apologize.smileys with beer

What happened to the olive branch? It looks like you're back to zero with your latest mail. Don't get angry. I'm not a friend of Ernie, not of Craig either. I don't hate the guts out of Ernie nor Craig. I am not emotional on this subject, but .... not stupid either. Just like possibly/hopefully all of us who have followed this thread want to know the truth. Some apparently have a different purpose to use this thread ... wolves in sheep clothes?

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: August 6, 2017 17:53

Quote
georgie48
Quote
Irix
Quote
roller99

Right there, the "illustrator working for me", is proof that Ernie did it. Both Pasche and Cefalu aren't debating which came first. And this quote by Braun pretty much obliviates Braun's claims elsewhere that he did it alone. What we have are 2 different versions, both official and independent.

The Tongue&Lips-Logo as we know it from Sticky Fingers' 1st North American Edition 1971 was not designed by Ernie Cefalu nor by Craig Braun personally.

Ernie Cefalu: "For the record, I really didn't know that there was going to be a Lips and Tongue logo on the final album sleeve - the only time I saw any album art before it hit the stores was in Craig's office that Saturday when Marshall [Chess] showed me the comp and I had suggested that they use a real zipper. As for why they had a second version done for the final album art, it is a mystery to me. The logo that I did the finish on and that was used on all the merchandising was done by me well before the end of February of 1971." -- [rockpopgallery.typepad.com]

There're three official and quite independent Tongue&Lips-Logos: John Pasche's version (inner sleeve of Sticky Fingers' international Edition 1971), then Ernie Cefalu's version (for the Licks merchandise 1971 + other RS stuff later on) and last but not least the now most famous version as used on the inner sleeve of Sticky Fingers' 1st North American Edition 1971.

The question is: who had done (+ when) the version from the inner sleeve of Sticky Fingers' 1st North American Edition 1971 - and also: where does the striking resemblance to the 'Day Tripper'-Illustration (by Alan Aldridge, 1969) come from?

Don't worry Irix.
The answer to your questions is known. Some remark of yours about who did or didn't do certain things, is, let's say "not completely correct", but that isn't really important.
But there are a few very important people, we all love, who are the key to the revelation of the truth, so be patient. Some things can not be told "at the wrong time or place" in order to avoid some to take advantage of it for their own benefit.
By the way, I like the remark "The logo I did the finish on ..." by Ernie cool smiley

But your context of the remark that you like is incomplete; your comment should read as this:

"The logo I did the finish on and that was used on all the merchandising was done by me well before the end of February of 1971."



The 1970 meeting Jagger had with Pasche, he showed him the Kali thing he liked, of which the tongue looks nothing like the logo, and told him to "go away and do something". Pasche did some drawings that were similar to what ended up being the (original) logo, "variations of angles and tones". "I think it took about two weeks, in all". The copyright of the logo is 1970.

In regard to THE LOGO ie the official Rolling Stones logo, the original one and the 'new' one used on STICKY FINGERS and ever since - THE LOGO was created, finished and done by John Pasche and it was tweaked by Mr. V assisted by Braun and Mr. D (since someone's name was not mentioned, it's obvious it wasn't Cefalu).

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: August 6, 2017 18:58

Quote
georgie48
Quote
roller99
I'll offer an olive branch here, because we're all here for the same reason; love of The Rolling Stones. I'm just trying to decode a mystery, and I think we should all be able to discuss this without resorting to accusations or heated arguments. So, if I offended, I apologize.smileys with beer

What happened to the olive branch? It looks like you're back to zero with your latest mail. Don't get angry. I'm not a friend of Ernie, not of Craig either. I don't hate the guts out of Ernie nor Craig. I am not emotional on this subject, but .... not stupid either. Just like possibly/hopefully all of us who have followed this thread want to know the truth. Some apparently have a different purpose to use this thread ... wolves in sheep clothes?

Ok, so you have nothing to add. Let's us know when you do.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: August 6, 2017 19:25

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Hairball
Officially and contractually it appears that way, but there's much more to the story than a piece of paper.
And for the record, I'm open to all interpretations and not taking sides, just calling it like I see it.

Cefalu's work sucks. Even Ray Charles can see that. As you said, like you see it. And what Ray Charles sees is a 4th grader's work.

Here's your earlier post. Now that Cefalu is here, maybe you'd care to back it up to his face?

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: August 6, 2017 19:39

Quote
roller99
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Hairball
Officially and contractually it appears that way, but there's much more to the story than a piece of paper.
And for the record, I'm open to all interpretations and not taking sides, just calling it like I see it.

Cefalu's work sucks. Even Ray Charles can see that. As you said, like you see it. And what Ray Charles sees is a 4th grader's work.

Here's your earlier post. Now that Cefalu is here, maybe you'd care to back it up to his face?

I'm sure he'd be just fine with someone thinking his work sucks. To clarify - I don't like his Stones logo, which sucks. As for his album cover and poster work, there's some cool things.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: edog ()
Date: August 6, 2017 19:45

My Interview With World Famous Cartoonist TROG!

So here we are I am with the Iconic Art Director and friend, Ernie Cefalu famously known for penning the The Rolling Stones lips logo, let’s talk about some art n weed!!


Countless pieces that you worked on have become iconic, and you have done it time and time again, as artwork contains such an emotional attachment to the artist, how’s that feel?

Well Trog, to be perfectly honest, I never thought much about it. In fact it was only about seven years ago I gave it any thought at all. I never was one that chased trends or fads but rather focused on the brand, musician or product needs and created timelessness images for the finished product.

I never dwelled on the past achievements but rather concentrate on what was in front of me. With me it’s always more about what I am doing rather than what I have done. My job one has always been to create the visual and emotional connection between the musician, their music and the fans.

When I started seeing the process taking shape, once it all came together, released to the world and the buzz is wild between the DJ’s at the radio stations it was AWESOME!! It is, by far the best high ever. Remember there was no MTV, no internet no itunes, all there was the album and its packaging and if you were lucky enough to live in a major city, a tour.

It is very easy when you love what you do and I always have been extremely blessed to have that and timing on my side. As I look back on it now I realized that even at the start of my career in 1969, the images I and my team created have left a mark that will live on as long as there is music and people who want to listen to it.

Even back at the beginning of my creative journey, I was helping good people build great brands and today… it’s what I do best.


Back then you had that room to create record album covers that spoke to the fans, now days its small CD covers and little itunes online files, it’s a kind of lost art, what was it like then?

“The 60’s were a time of change, excitement and innocence, of diversity, freedom and experimentation, for finding one’s self and doing your own thing. It was the age of youth, the decade of love… and it was about to be our time.”

Pacific Eye & Ear was a small close-working, super creative force combining art, business and production expertise. We played a critical role and left a huge mark in what I’m calling the “Golden Age Of Custom Album Packaging” TM.
Everyone enjoyed it.

We all remember the large format albums with liner notes that were big enough to read and the Pop Art appeal of panties stretched over the record; a real zipper imbedded into the cover, or an over-sized wallet with a pull out Billion Dollar Bill.

We, the designers, illustrators and copy writers strived for originality and creativity, like the music we were packaging, and delivered it too the world via this newly found art form. Excited and challenging, we were creating the rules and blazing a trail. It was a great experience, fresh and fulfilling, which regrettably only lasted 15 years.
What’s your top 5 album covers you worked on?

This isn’t an easy one to answer Trog, because I have created so many covers 233 to be exact. I love each and every one of them, esch for so very many different reasons. Things like my personal relationship with the musician, the concept I delivered, the staff Illustrator whom I assigned my concept to for final execution and the exposure the cover got. All these distinctions only make’s narrowing it down to the top 5 very difficult and not really possible.

Now certainly not all images were as well-known as others but because each cover we did was customized specifically for the artist we were doing it for, each cover has a story and a special place in my heart. That being said, I’ve tried and tried to cut the list off at 5 covers but the very best I can do is get it down to my favorite “Top15” covers and they are as follows:

1. Jesus Christ Superstar
2. Alice Cooper’s “School’s Out”
3. Black Sabbath “Sabbath Bloody Sabbath”
4. Cheech & Chong’s “Big Bambu”
5. Kenny Rankin’s “Silver Morning”
6. Burton Cummings “Dream Of A Child”
7. The Bee Gee’s “Main Course”
8. Aerosmith’s “Toys In The Attic”
9. The Rolling Stone’s Tongue
10. Captain Beyond’s “Captain Beyond”
11. The Doors “Full Circle”
12. Alice Cooper’s “Greatest Hits”
13. Grand Funk Railroad’s “E-Plurbus-Funk
14. The Jefferson Airplane’s “Long John Silver”
15. Alice Cooper’s “Billion Dollar Babies”

Remembered in history, you will be remembered thru your art for decades, have you ever sat there by yourself and got stoned and thought about that?

How about every day and "It’s The Kiss Of Death each day!" But it is truly the fuel that feeds the creative flames, and most certainly separates the "wheat" from the chaff!" As a creative person I face that "stone cold" reality, every time I accept an assignment. In taking on a project "The Kiss Of Death" lurks around every turn, and behind every obstacle. Understanding and facing this is how I learned the "tricks and was able to grow my licks."

As for running my own business, ya it can be "The Kiss Of Death" as well but 99% of the time its exactly the opposite and that's what makes it GREAT. After working on Madison Avenue, for both big and small agencies... I once again squarely faced off with "The Kiss Of Death," I started my own businesses and ran them for over 34 years.

This was the "Best" because it took out the politics, ass kissing, bull shit and all the other fears of the agency world! Doing this gave me the ability to spread my wings and soar with the eagles rather than staying on the ground surrounded by turkeys!

But just when I didn't think it could get any better, I started my solo consultancy life and now 7 years later, in large part because of the internet… IT'S SO MUCH BETTER!! Remember, if it were easy and "The Kiss Of Death" wasn't a big factor, everyone would do it. It’s not for everyone nor for the faint of heart, but the rewards are great!

I feel certain that by me embracing this attitude and work ethic, it has allowed me to keep on creating history, instead of becoming it!

Who turned down the best artwork concept in your career?

This is a real no brainer and I don’t even have to think about it. The 1973 cover was for Cheech & Chong and was scheduled to be the next album after the “Big Bambu.” Cover we had just created. The new album was titled “The Cheech & Chong All American Drug Dealing Game”

We did three separate photo sessions the first was the front cover which was lots of police cars and cops with weapon drawn surrounding the house. The back cover was both Cheech & Chong running out the back door and across the yard with bags of money and drugs.

The inside spread was Global Drug Dealing Central with about fifty people dressed in clothing from their various countries, all buying and selling drugs across the global game board. The record came in a box with game pieces, money, scoring cards and a very cool playing board.

What was it like to work on a piece for Jefferson Airplane?

They were incredible to work with and together we created quite a few cool album covers for their label, Grunt Records. Grunt headquarters was in a great big Victorian house in the heart of the Height Ashbury in San Francisco. My partner and I would fly to there for briefings and presentations at least twice to three times a month.

On one trip to Grunt early in our relationship we met downstairs in their rehearsal studio/walk in safe, (their building was at one time a bank) where they kept some of the best pot I’ve ever smoked, Man, their shit was CrAzY aSs!

We got so blazed that my partner and I got lost day tripping in the city for over 3 hours and ended up missing our flight back to Los Angeles.
The funny thing about getting so lost is that, I grew up in Northern California spending 5 years of college in Oakland/San Francisco and I was still… so very lost!

So I actually listen to Alice Cooper from time to time on his radio show, now I always enjoy the story's behind the bands and music, tell me a story about Alice?

Alice Cooper’s “Welcome To My Nightmare” in 1975 was Alices first solo album and it was to be the last package that Drew and I did together, but it also became our most famous collaboration. Working with Alice and Shep was always a great experience, and this time was no exception. I love them both, and Shep is the best manager and human being in the business.

I spent a lot of time working with them both on every one of the 13 covers we’ve done so far. One of the greatest part of doing work for is that there is always so much to work with. We discussed the messaging behind the music and listened to some of the rough tracks.

Then I met with Joe Gannon who produced all of Alice’s tours, as he conveyed his needs and concerns for the stage show and what we has created fit in to the show. Finally I got with Drew and that’s when I created the nightmare “Ring Master” concept. With Drew’s sketches and my concept and lettering it all came to life, and the rest is what they refer to as… “Rock N’ Roll” History.

The "Welcome To My Nightmare" Album cover has been ranked by Rolling Stone Magazine as one of the top 100 album covers of all time. and I personally had 4 covers in that poll. This, in my opinion, is by far the best Drew Struzan illustration ever done and my personal favorite. It is the quintessential example of the Struzan style that first got him noticed in the movie poster business where he went on to become “the most collected Illustrator in the world.”

When we started working together Drew hadn’t developed any specific look yet and that’s why his early works were so varied in style and medium. It was his thirst for versatility and maximum control of a new medium that drove him, and it was contagious for all of us as well.

He would do one assignment in oils on canvas, the next with brush and Doc Martin dyes or India ink. Then the next piece would be a watercolor, and then he would jump on Carl Ramsey’s airbrush and after a few tips from Carl, he mastered it as well.

So you worked on the Sabbath Bloody Sabbath cover with Drew Struzen, which went on to become one of the most iconic albums ever, how long did that cover take to create, were their never released concepts for potential other covers?

Yes, I created the Black Sabbath concept after getting a private show of their up-coming tour. I was asked to come to the Beverley Hills mansion that the group had rented to live and rehearse in before their tour started.

Upon arrival, I was escorted to a ballroom where the entire stage show was up and the band was doing a dress run through. It Was Powerful!
I based my package concept on 2 English illustrations from the turn of the century that were given to me by my aunt on my first communion day. I conveyed my concept of a good man and evil man, both at the split second of their death to Drew and both the front and back cover 30” x 40” illustrations were completed in a week.

The PEE creative dream team constantly pushed the creative bar higher and higher – never satisfied with what we had just done but focused on how we could make the next one even better. It is how we, along with a hand full of others, over the years, through our art, like the music itself… left images for the world that will live on forever.

You created the famous Big Bambu cover art, can you remember the first time you ever met Cheech & Chong, describe that meeting?

Yes I can Trog, very well because I was a huge fan. It was in October of 19 and 71 I had been in Los Angeles for about 3 weeks setting up an art department and staffing it for a company I worked for out of New York. A lot of things were changing in the world and it seemed that music was most certainly was championing the way.

One of the promises that was made to myself and the companies vice president who also came out with me was that, there would be lots of work waiting for us when we got to los Angeles, but that never materialized. In anticipation of my trip to Los Angeles, I had read two interesting snippets in Billboard’s “Bubbling Under” column.

Both articles were about new albums being worked on one by Alice Cooper “School’s Out” (but that’s another story) and Cheech & Chong with no title to date. I would be remiss if I didn’t say, I was enamored by both so much so that before coming out from New York, I created a comp album cover for both in hopes that I might get a chance to get to one or the other.

I created a school desk for Alice and a bigger that life pack of cigarette papers for Cheech Marin and Tommy Chong. It's a good thing that I had done them because when the promised work didn’t happen (lots of lip service from our boss) I showed both comps to Tony Grabois the vice president of sales for the company and he flipped out over them.

That day he reached out to both Lou Adler Cheech and Tommy’s manager and owner of ODE Records and Alice’s manager Shep Gordon owner of Alive Entertainment. When Tony explained to each, who we were, what I had created in the past with Jesus Christ Superstar, The Rolling Stones tongue logo, Grand Funk Railroad and what we had to show them with no obligation on their part… they both agreed to see us.

Tony and I went to see Lou, Cheech and Tommy and showed them my comp. They were so “BLOWN AWAY” with it that not only did they buy the concept on the spot but went back into the studio and added a bit to the “B” side of the album about smoking the big joint that they got out of the new album package.

Just two years ago I was in Arizona at Alice’s Christmas Puddin’ Concert doing the “Old School” box set when I bumped into Cheech and he thanked me over and over for creating “the most awesome package and the extra 100,000 album they sold because of it.”

Upon hearing that and in the same week nailed The School’s Out” cover as well, I must be honest to this day it was the most “AMAZING WEEKS WORTH OF WORK” of my career! As the crowning event less than 2 weeks later Tony and I quit the company and started Pacific Eye & Ear on January first 1972.

Did they have good weed on them ?

No the first time we met it was at the Ode Records office on the A&M Records lot so no partying thgen. But… when we had subsequent meetings well that’s a whole different story. What I can say is, my pot was much better and superior to theirs when we partied like rock stars… but that’s another story as well, perhaps for another time.

Do you still own those original sketches or other Cheech & Chong sketches that never got released ?

Yes I do Trog, I have sketches from both the “Big Bambu” which was a huge album for them and I also have all the sketches and photography from “The Cheech & Chong All American Drug Dealing Game” that was never released.

It looks like my concept for that un-released package might be resurrected in a way that would be even more relevant toda/Users/ernie/Desktop/Screen Shot 2017-05-22 at 6.48.57 PM.pngy than back when I first presented the concept to them in 1973. I can’t really talk about it to much now because there is a “GREAT” chance it will be finally done.

This type of thing has been happening through out my career but a lot more lately. For me, the good news is that when the present discovers the past, and wants to know more (thanks to the internet) its all out there. It is where the rubber hits the road and that’s when the really strong discarded ideas get a second chance to move forward from good to “GREAT” and get their time in the sun!

Thank you my friend for allowing me the opportunity and space to tell my story but most of all for your friendship. - Ernie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-08 01:25 by edog.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: August 6, 2017 21:07

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roller99
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georgie48
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roller99
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Irix
Craig Braun's personal story about designing the Tongue&Lips-Logo (8-Dec-2016):

"I had decided that because it was the Rolling Stones' first release under their own label after leaving Decca Records (London in U.S.), to use this logo on the cover", Craig says. "Mick had commissioned a young art school student [John Pasche, who has since earned six figures for his sketches] in London to design a logo, but he had not completed a design. He'd only completed some sketches, rough sketches of it. And Marshall Chess [...] was in London, and I said to him, 'I want to put the design on the inner sleeve.' He said, 'Well, all I have is a rubber stamp from the sketch!' So I said for him to stamp it a few times, put it on a fax which, on a thermal fax machine, the quality is just shit, but I could see the silhouette of it, where the art student was going, very fuzzy, and about 3/4 of an inch, so I blew that up to about 12" and I had an illustrator working for me and I said, 'I want you to re-draft this for me.' After many a back-and-forth, trial-and-error fleshing-out with the illustrator, the Rolling Stones' tongue and lip logo as we now know it was being hatched."

More: [www.Amoeba.com] .

Right there, the "illustrator working for me", is proof that Ernie did it. Both Pasche and Cefalu aren't debating which came first. And this quote by Braun pretty much obliviates Braun's claims elsewhere that he did it alone. What we have are 2 different versions, both official and independent. Ever hear the story of how Compaq reverse engineered the IBM PC? A guy in the middle saw the design and described it to another, with the result being that the finished product was almost identical, without the second designer ever having seen the IBM, thus isolating him from lawsuits.

Nice try, roller99 cool smiley, but ..... the "illustrator working for me" was not Ernie, but Mr. V assisted by Braun and Mr. D. And it concerns the famous "USA" logo and ... it was done before Ernie joined. You can ask Ernie how many people were working for Braun's company. I wonder if he knows. Certainly "not only Ernie" ...
We have an expression here in the USA, "put up or shut up". If you have some info on this, put it out there. I'm having a good laugh at all the historians here who think they know what's what, when Ernie worked at Craig Braun's. Do any of you think your words will ever be taken more seriously than his? Not here, and certainly not in the real world, and certainly not when industry titans have vouched for him. Unless you are Mick or Marshall Chess, it ain't gonna happen, cause you weren't there. Rebut this all is you want, it's just wind from windbags. And at some point, I'll talk to Mick about this....

Watch and, more importantly, listen to what Pasche says. Cefalu had ZERO - Z-E-R-O - to do with THE LOGO or the 'new' LOGO. He did his own logo, obviously lifted from THE LOGO PT2 later, but it's not THE LOGO. Cefalu is not "famous for" the Stones LOGO.

[www.youtube.com]

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: edog ()
Date: August 6, 2017 22:53

When I created my original version of The Stones Tongue I didn't work for Craig and I was not an employee. I was a freelancer. That being said I own my version art and its rights. So again georgie, you don't know what your talking about. Not to worry though you by no means are alone in your lack of the true facts! - Ernie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-07 01:52 by edog.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: edog ()
Date: August 6, 2017 22:57

Hello gaslight street and thank you for calling me a liar and a thief, very harsh words and accusations. I have been called worse by people much better than you. As for myversion I don't think its ugly and either do The Stones, they keep using it. - Ernie

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: edog ()
Date: August 6, 2017 23:00

Hello roller99 and thank you for your insight to what John has said as I have received an Email form him last week saying the exact that. Again, whatever you do do not feel alone as there are many of us out there that share our correct conceptions. - Ernie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-07 01:54 by edog.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: edog ()
Date: August 6, 2017 23:07

Truth Be Told And I Have said This Many Times Before, I Much Perfer John's Version Better Than Mine Because Mine Is Stilff And Corporate While John's Is More Annimated Like The Stones. But At The End Of The Day The Stones Used Them Both At Exactly The Same Time! Thank You Belivers In The Truth Being Told And The Record Being Straightened Out. I Love Each & Everyone Of You For That. - Ernie

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: August 6, 2017 23:39

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edog
Hello gaslight street and thank you for calling me a liar and a thief, very harsh words and accusations.

Harsh? You call this harsh? Accusations?

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GasLightStreet
Ernie Cefalu's logo is ugly. He talks too much. He probably stole the idea and said it was originally his.

It would be an accusation if I said you did steal it, which, as you can see since I provided what you're talking about, I did not say, hence "probably". I have said, basically, that you're a loon, that you have gotten credited wrongly for it (that's the famous logo, the one everyone knows), and that you've never once, as far as I've ever seen, made that clear. But, obviously, at this point, whatever.


Quote
edog
I have been called worse by people much better than you.

Describe "better". There's a lot of loons and kooks here and everyone gets a bit kooky or loony at times, some way more than others.


Quote
edog
As for myversion I don't think its ugly and either do The Stones, they keep using it. - Ernie

They have used it... but not very much. And it is ugly. What if they like it being ugly? Maybe that's why they used it on those shirts back then.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: August 6, 2017 23:42

Quote
edog
Truth Be Told And I Have said This Many Times Before, I Much Perfer John's Version Better Than Mine Because Mine Is Stilff And Corporate While John's Is More Annimated Like The Stones. But At The End Of The Day The Stones Used Them Both At Exactly The Same Time!

Yet... the John Pasche design continues to be used for every release to this day. Yours has never been used on a release.

That's what the point of all of this is, THE LOGO that everyone knows. Since you've not said anything different from what has been "figured out", it's quite clear.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: edog ()
Date: August 7, 2017 01:47

Yes gasligntstreet who are you talking about when you say "The Logo Everyone Knows" there is a huge base of Stones fans that know my version as well. My version that was used in the very begining is used to this day as well, My logo was just released on a commeritive T-Shirt a few months ago... so what's your point. Also, what have you created except confusion? - Ernie

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: August 7, 2017 01:50

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GasLightStreet
Quote
edog
Hello gaslight street and thank you for calling me a liar and a thief, very harsh words and accusations.

Harsh? You call this harsh? Accusations?

Quote
GasLightStreet
Ernie Cefalu's logo is ugly. He talks too much. He probably stole the idea and said it was originally his.

It would be an accusation if I said you did steal it, which, as you can see since I provided what you're talking about, I did not say, hence "probably". I have said, basically, that you're a loon, that you have gotten credited wrongly for it (that's the famous logo, the one everyone knows), and that you've never once, as far as I've ever seen, made that clear. But, obviously, at this point, whatever.


Quote
edog
I have been called worse by people much better than you.

Describe "better". There's a lot of loons and kooks here and everyone gets a bit kooky or loony at times, some way more than others.


Quote
edog
As for myversion I don't think its ugly and either do The Stones, they keep using it. - Ernie

They have used it... but not very much. And it is ugly. What if they like it being ugly? Maybe that's why they used it on those shirts back then.

Who's the judge of ugly? Certainly not you although someone who expresses themselves like you can be considered ugly, so perhaps you are an authority on ugly. Maybe you spend a lot of time looking at ugly?

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: edog ()
Date: August 7, 2017 02:01

You know gaslight street I find you and your comments are extreamly ugly. Especially since you do not know personally only what you have gleened from others. Its easy to critize but rather to create, or provide a better solution I think, no I know that's something you will never experience. And for me knowing that about you by just your words and how you place them... is a very beautiful thing for me. - Ernie

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: August 7, 2017 03:44

Ernie, criticism of what you've done with your Stones logo is only that - a Stones fan thinks it stinks and was under the impression that you take credit for something you didn't do ie THE LOGO that you didn't do. So what if I don't like your logo. Roller99 is for some reason hurt by someone not liking your Stones logo. So what. What do you want me to do now that you're on here, tell you I was kidding and lie about it?

The logo everyone knows? Really? You have to ask that? THE LOGO. The one everyone knows - the John Pasche tweaked one The Rolling Stones use ALL THE TIME.


Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: August 7, 2017 03:59

Quote
GasLightStreet
Ernie, criticism of what you've done with your Stones logo is only that - a Stones fan thinks it stinks and was under the impression that you take credit for something you didn't do ie THE LOGO that you didn't do. So what if I don't like your logo. Roller99 is for some reason hurt by someone not liking your Stones logo. So what. What do you want me to do now that you're on here, tell you I was kidding and lie about it?

The logo everyone knows? Really? You have to ask that? THE LOGO. The one everyone knows - the John Pasche tweaked one The Rolling Stones use ALL THE TIME.


Hurt? I'm not hurt by anything you could say. You said it sucked first, now you say you don't like it. There's a big difference between the two statements. One is a personal opinion, the other is a blanket statement. I think you have no balls and no credibility. First you said his art SUCKS, then you pared your comment down to just the tongue, now you say "I don't like it". You're very good at backpedalling....

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: edog ()
Date: August 7, 2017 05:11

Hey Gaslightstreet or what ever your name is, opinions are like @#$%&, everyone has one and most of them stink! I really don't care if you like what I did or not. As a Creative Director /Graphic Designer for over 45 years I have learned to not pay attention to everyone's thoughts and opinions especially if the person hasen't done anything that's worth critizing. If you were a real person with a valid opnion you would use your real name just like I have always done, present yourself and what you have created which I would venture to say is "NOTHING!" So Say what you will about my work because I have completed thousands and thousands of projects that my clients and their consumers have loved and sometimes even call iconic. My work speaks volumes about who I am, what I stand for and what I have created. So unless you can come out from behind that phoney name your using and stand for who you really are and show me and everyone else here what you have created...you have nothing that would interest me and your comments are as hallow as you are. I have made my mark in time what have you done? So you and everyone else on this site will know, I am here to set the record straight not to waste time trying to convence you of anything, a small mind equals an even smaller presence. - Ernie



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-07 07:12 by edog.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: edog ()
Date: August 7, 2017 07:05

I Am The Man In The Arena... Which Of You, Will Stand With Me?

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasm, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows that in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

These words were spoken long ago by a very great man who I have tried to fashion my life after, which of you can say the same? Which of you is daring greatly? - Ernie



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-07 07:15 by edog.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: August 7, 2017 07:26

Quote
edog
I Am The Man In The Arena... Which Of You, Will Stand With Me?

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasm, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows that in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

These words were spoken long ago by a very great man who I have tried to fashion my life after, which of you can say the same? Which of you is daring greatly? - Ernie

Credit to Theodore Roosevelt.

I used to have that quote stapled up on the wall of my studio during graduate school.

thumbs up

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: August 7, 2017 07:40

Quote
roller99
Quote
GasLightStreet
Ernie, criticism of what you've done with your Stones logo is only that - a Stones fan thinks it stinks and was under the impression that you take credit for something you didn't do ie THE LOGO that you didn't do. So what if I don't like your logo. Roller99 is for some reason hurt by someone not liking your Stones logo. So what. What do you want me to do now that you're on here, tell you I was kidding and lie about it?

The logo everyone knows? Really? You have to ask that? THE LOGO. The one everyone knows - the John Pasche tweaked one The Rolling Stones use ALL THE TIME.


Hurt? I'm not hurt by anything you could say. You said it sucked first, now you say you don't like it. There's a big difference between the two statements. One is a personal opinion, the other is a blanket statement. I think you have no balls and no credibility. First you said his art SUCKS, then you pared your comment down to just the tongue, now you say "I don't like it". You're very good at backpedalling....

Pish posh, man. I'm not backpedalling. It's all about the logo. That's all it's about. On page 5 I said... "I know Cefalu did other things, which were great." All the other stuff is strictly about his tongue logo.



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Naturalust
An interesting quote from the SabotageTimes Marshall chess interview about the tongue. He basically admits auditioning a variety of artists for the job, perhaps there is even more than Pasche and Cefalu out there?

JW: Wasn’t one of your first moves to come up with the idea of the famous lips-and-tongue logo for the band?

MC: The Stones were in Amsterdam. I landed at Rotterdam airport. I was driving along to meet the band and saw a Shell petrol station with the classic yellow logo. It was so beautifully simplistic. I mention this later when I’m sitting around with The Stones, saying that we should come up with a design that is totally recognisable without having the band’s name on it. Out of that conversation came the idea of having the tongue and lips. As label manager it was my job to audition a variety of artists who came up with an extraordinary variety of tongues. As soon as we saw John Pasche’s now famous design, there was no doubt that was the one and we bought it outright.

October 9, 1970 the Stones played in Amsterdam.

So what some have suggested is that it's somehow possible that Marshall Chess saw Cefalu's tongue and had Pasche improve it even though Cefalu, who was an ocean away, says himself that he finished his in 1971 when Pasche finished his in October of 1970.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: edog ()
Date: August 7, 2017 07:46

Yes Theodore Roosevelt. A great man and visionary. I created my version of the logo at the begining of 1971 and both logos were used at the same exact time. - Ernie



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-08-07 07:50 by edog.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: August 8, 2017 01:05

Quote
edog
When I created my original version of The Stones Tongue I didn't work for Craig and I was not an employee. I was a freelancer. That being said I own my version art and its rights. So again georgie, you don't know what your talking about. Not to worry though you by no means are alone in your lack of the true facts! - Ernie

Wow, sorry, I was out for two days, so had to catch up with you guys. I guess what you mean with "my version" is the little mouth that appeared on an album you showed in the video interview. I am not going to argue about that. I'm sure you can prove your rights on that one. However, there is no tongue in it. There is no link whatsever with the Rolling Stones Tongue & Lips logo. I collected (as I mentioned before in this thread) several hundreds of mouth images WITH tongue, dating back to even 1949. If all those people would claim they were the first ones involved in the creation of the all time famous Rolling Stones logo, I am afraid I would have to ask BV to stop this link. But, to answer Roller99's question ... Mr. V and Mr. D will surface ... in time winking smiley
And to Gaslightstreet I like to say, take it easy ... please. There have been discussions on an Aussi site involving Ernie (and his friends) against Braun, that really turned (escalated) ugly. I made me sick in the stomach. We don't want to do this as true Rolling Stones fans. Your input, even from quite some time ago was very helpful to complete my "work" already in late 2015 and trust me, it is pretty hard for me not to speak out to the full as yet. But as roller99 knows by now, for me TRUST and being trusted in this matter is more important than anything else.
And ...
"October 9, 1970 the Stones played in Amsterdam.

So what some have suggested is that it's somehow possible that Marshall Chess saw Cefalu's tongue and had Pasche improve it even though Cefalu, who was an ocean away, says himself that he finished his in 1971 when Pasche finished his in October of 1970."

"Chess and Cefalu had a drink on an Amsterdam canal boat after the concert". If you beleave that, you believe anything. They didn't know eachother.

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