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Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: July 14, 2013 21:49

I've seen that pin in Wyman's book, about 1974 maybe, the ugly logo.

The double gleam version may have been as simple as Mick saying to John Pasche 'Why don't you do that on the other side as well?' or something. I doubt it's very difficult. It just seems beyond obvious the second tongue is clearly done by Pasche as a sleeker design for the sake of having it sleeker.

That's just my thoughts though. Perhaps some day the truth will officially come out.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: July 17, 2013 13:03

We Stones fans always wanna know "for sure".
I googled on "red lips" as well as "lips & tongue" and it's amazing to see how many images there are. Round lips with very shiny lipstick in fact sometimes show a whitish glance, which must have caught John Pasche's too at some point. His modern two-demensional approach with the two eyes in the upper lip was quite unique, though.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: tornnfrayed ()
Date: July 17, 2013 14:16

The first logos were classic, whoever designed them. Unfortunately the logo has been cheapened over the years by the countless variations on the countless tours.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: July 22, 2013 23:59

Hi Deltics,

I went over Ernie Cefalu's spoken interview several times. It puzzles me, because he says that John Pasche came after his version of february 1971. At the same time Ernie is not quite sure about the dates. FACT is that JP's original creation is medio 1970 and NOT 1971 (and so not created after Ernie's result). Also Ernie talks about a guy named Chuch (a roadie). There is only one Chuch that can be "linked" to that merchandise shirt (2002/2003 tour) and that would be late Chuch Magee (friend of Ronnie Wood) and he only became involved in the world of the Stones, after Ronnie Wood had joined the band. So Chuch could have nothing to do with the "misterious" final (red) Stones logo, which apparently is not JP's!
We'll get there one day ....

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: July 23, 2013 05:16

Quote
georgie48
Hi Deltics,

I went over Ernie Cefalu's spoken interview several times. It puzzles me, because he says that John Pasche came after his version of february 1971. At the same time Ernie is not quite sure about the dates. FACT is that JP's original creation is medio 1970 and NOT 1971 (and so not created after Ernie's result). Also Ernie talks about a guy named Chuch (a roadie). There is only one Chuch that can be "linked" to that merchandise shirt (2002/2003 tour) and that would be late Chuch Magee (friend of Ronnie Wood) and he only became involved in the world of the Stones, after Ronnie Wood had joined the band. So Chuch could have nothing to do with the "misterious" final (red) Stones logo, which apparently is not JP's!
We'll get there one day ....

The "mysterious final Stones logo" appeared in 1971 as well as the original. Obviously by John Pasche. This Ernie is just a windbag. Anyone can make a claim, get some poor nim to "interview" and put it on youtube.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: July 31, 2013 19:49

Does anyone in the USA or Canada have an original image of the logo as it is printed on the backside of the Some Girls 1978 vinyl album?
The European version shows the two lines vise verse (mirror) with regard to the official one. Also the tongue is somewhat thicker.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: July 31, 2013 23:45

Quote
georgie48

Does anyone in the USA or Canada have an original image of the logo as it is printed on the backside of the Some Girls 1978 vinyl album?


Original images could be on www.discogs.com.








Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-01 09:10 by Irix.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: August 1, 2013 01:56

Quote
Irix
Quote
georgie48

Does anyone in the USA or Canada have an original image of the logo as it is printed on the backside of the Some Girls 1978 vinyl album?


Original images could be on www.discogs.com.





Thanks Irix!
I found an image of the backside of an original US Some Girls LP 1978 and that one also has the "messed up" tongue & Lip logo. Also there the stripes on the tongue (not the eyes on the lip) are mirror printed ! So it's not a local "error".

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Innunout ()
Date: August 1, 2013 09:23

I reckon it was ripped off from a red lips oil on canvas painting done by
Tom Wesselmann in 1966 which was hanging in the Guggenheim in New York last
December. Might still be there.
There's no rules. The Stones ripped off "The Last Time" from the Staples Singers
and the tongue and lips logo was merely a variation of a theme.

[tomwesselmannestate.org]

The version in the Guggenheim does not have the cigarette and is painted at a
different angle but this one shows the arrogance and swagger that was the hallmark
of the Stones in those early days.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: August 10, 2013 15:12

Alan Aldridge once designed a "guitared" tiger for the Rolling Stones Rock 'n' Roll Circus project. It apparently was never used. Does anyone know about possible other stuff Aldridge did for the Stones?

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: August 13, 2013 00:40

Musidor B.V. has filed these days a lawsuit against the german fashion store chain 'New Yorker' because of this Tongue & Lips logo, used to support the sale:



The sale has nothing to do with the Rolling Stones at all. 'New Yorker' says, the tongue has been designed by themselves and is not similar to the Stones-tongue, because the 'New Yorker'-tongue is yellow .....

Here a translation of the german newspaper article:

"12th August 2013

Rolling Stones sue fashion chain ‚New Yorker’.

A protruding tongue has the clothing company ‚New Yorker’ [Braunschweig/Brunswick, Germany] brought trouble with the rock band Rolling Stones.

A protruding tongue ensures dispute: The advertising campaign of the clothing chain ‚New Yorker’ in Brunswick has called the lawyers of the Rolling Stones on the plan. The charge: the design used for the campaign is the famous tongue of the Stones, the "Lips & Tongue logo", to be similar. As the company in Brunswick confirmed it was therefore sued by the lawyers of the Amsterdam Musidor company that manages the brand portfolio of the british rockband.

The fashion chain ‚New Yorkers’ has already all 3000 posters removed in their 800 stores around Europe, confirmed company spokeswoman Katharina Aimée Frede. There will be no new campaign. The financial damage of the matter is not yet clear.

The "Bild" newspaper had reported on Monday charges of EUR 250.000 for the lawyers of the Rolling Stones as well as a possible penalty in the amount of EUR 20.000, which might be faced by the company in Brunswick. However, these figures would not confirmed by ‚New Yorker’.

At the same time, the Brunswick clothing chain announced resistance. „A impudence the whole matter. My lawyers are already on" stated Friedrich Knapp, owner of ‚New Yorker’. The plagiarism allegation is also not tenable: "The posters made our creative department itself. I will let not prohibit my tongue by the Stones." said Knapp.

An expert from the region sees little chances of success: "If a graphic design student would have shown me something like that, I would have never suspected a trademark infringement" said Bernd Meier, Honorary Professor of Marketing at the University of Fine Arts in Brunswick. The shape of the lips and tongue of the ‚New Yorker’-tongue were too different to the Rolling Stones logo. In addition, the Brunswick-tongue is yellow - this is a significant difference from the tongue of the Stones. Meier therefore assumes that ‚New Yorker’ will win the lawsuit.

Not so clearly sees Matthias Pierson the case, a Professor of Copyright in the Faculty of Law of the ‚Ostfalia’ in Wolfenbüttel: "The question is asked whether it is actually a trademark violation." This will readily always be the case if a identical trademark will be used without the consent for the identification of identical goods and services.
"It is more difficult, however, even at slight variations - then it comes down to whether, in view of the similarity to the public, there is a likelihood of confusion." In addition, it must be examined whether justifying the use of the distinctive character or the repute of the domestic brands sign without reason is exploited or affected in an unfair manner.
"



Update on 1st November 2013 by [www.Braunschweiger-Zeitung.de] :

"The Rolling Stones probably won't sue New Yorkers after all. The band's lawyers have not been in touch after injunctions.

The dispute between the Rolling Stones and New Yorker is probably not as serious as expected. In August, the lawyers from the Amsterdam company Musidor, which manages the band's brand portfolio, approached the Braunschweig company. The accusation: the sticking out tongue with which the company drew attention to price reductions in the summer sales was too similar to the Rolling Stones' "Tongue & Lips logo". The amount in dispute was EUR 250.000. New Yorker was threatened with a contractual penalty of EUR 20.000."




Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-18 17:55 by Irix.

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: August 13, 2013 03:29

"If a graphic design student would have shown me something like that, I would have never suspected a trademark infringement" said Bernd Meier, Honorary Professor of Marketing at the University of Fine Arts in Brunswick. The shape of the lips and tongue of the ‚New Yorker’-tongue were too different to the Rolling Stones logo. In addition, the Brunswick-tongue is yellow - this is a significant difference from the tongue of the Stones. Meier therefore assumes that ‚New Yorker’ will win the lawsuit.

Sounds like they have BP's lawyers working for them. What a crock!

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: georgie48 ()
Date: August 19, 2013 16:54

when did the Stones come up with their first variation on the "classic" red tongue&lip version? Was it in connection with the Steel Wheels tour or even earlier?

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: blivet ()
Date: August 19, 2013 19:45

Quote
georgie48
when did the Stones come up with their first variation on the "classic" red tongue&lip version? Was it in connection with the Steel Wheels tour or even earlier?

At least as far back 1980. Take a look at the sleeve for the single of "She's So Cold".

John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: February 15, 2015 00:01

I can't believe that this misinformation is still being spread around:

At the end of 1970, Cefalu joined forces with Craig Braun, Inc. in New York, where he designed the iconic tongue logo for The Rolling Stones[citation needed] and worked on the 'Sticky Fingers' album...

[en.wikipedia.org]

It's a fact that John Pasche came up with the logos as everyone knows them...



... and not Ernie Cefalu, which translates to ERnie Cefalu did not come up with The Rolling Stones Lapping Tongue & Lips logo.

More complete rubbish here:

The results have become rock icons - the tongue logo for The Rolling Stones and the rule-breaking Sticky Fingers album.

[rockpopgallery.typepad.com]

Re: John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: February 15, 2015 00:15


Hindu goddess 'Kali' (Year 600 CE)



Carmen McRae (1954) - [Music.Apple.com]



Tom Wesselmann, Expo Mouth #10, 1967 - [iorr.org]



Alan Aldridge - Beatles Illustrated Lyrics (1969)



Rubber-Stamp-Logo for the Rolling-Stones-Records letterhead (London, 1970)



Craig Braun, Inc. (NYC, 1971) - [iorr.org] - SF inner sleeve (American version)



Ernie Cefalu - Dolls Alive (1970) - [iorr.org]



Ernie Cefalu - Licks Memorabilia (NYC, 1971)



John Pasche (London, 1971)



John Pasche (London, 1971) - Sticky Fingers (inner sleeve, UK & international version)



More about the Lips&Tongue logo also here: [www.iorr.org].



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-28 13:55 by Irix.

Re: John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: February 15, 2015 00:21

It just burns me for some reason!

Re: John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: February 15, 2015 01:09

Sounds to me like they had several guys working on the same theme. Yes, Pasche's art was used for sticky Fingers, but he was probably given the very specific theme to work on.

Ernie Cefalu acknowledges that it was Pasche's art but tells a pretty convincing story about some guy at Craig Braun? looking at his lips on a different 1970 record label, sketching a tongue on the lips and saying, do something like this. It's not inconceivable that they both came up with similar art, especially since an art agency was involved.

The only thing that doesn't quite jive is that Ernie says he did his in February 1971 and John did his a couple months later. The Pasche original artwork with sold for big bucks at auction was claimed to be done in 1970. It would certainly be in Pasche's best interest to claim it was a 1970 piece and thus get the big bucks for the "original".

The real question is: Did Pasche see Ceflau's artwork first or did some guy at the art agency see Pasche's artwork first and give the idea to Ceflau? Since Pasche was working with Mick and Ceflau working with Marshall Chess, it's easy to see who would win the contract. peace

Re: John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: February 15, 2015 01:35

Quote
Naturalust

The real question is: Did Pasche see Ceflau's artwork first or did some guy at the art agency see Pasche's artwork first and give the idea to Ceflau?

Or: When exactly has Mick visited John Pasche and has shown him the picture of Kali?

Re: John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: February 15, 2015 01:46

It's been made clear that Jagger and Pasche talked and Pasche came up with the logo. Ernie Cefalu just needs to go away.

Re: John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: February 15, 2015 02:00

Quote
GasLightStreet
It's been made clear that Jagger and Pasche talked and Pasche came up with the logo. Ernie Cefalu just needs to go away.

Cefalu's art was used for a bunch of promo stuff during that time, he's still valid for that. Besides there is obviously more to the story with an art agency and Marshall Chess being involved. So there were two artists doing the logo, no worries. I'll even concede that Pasche was first used by the Stones. But they obviously used both at some time. peace

Re: John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: February 15, 2015 02:19

Quote
Naturalust
Quote
GasLightStreet
It's been made clear that Jagger and Pasche talked and Pasche came up with the logo. Ernie Cefalu just needs to go away.

Cefalu's art was used for a bunch of promo stuff during that time, he's still valid for that. Besides there is obviously more to the story with an art agency and Marshall Chess being involved. So there were two artists doing the logo, no worries. I'll even concede that Pasche was first used by the Stones. But they obviously used both at some time. peace

Pasche's logo is the one everyone knows. The world doesn't care about this Ernie fella, who's clearly out of his mind.

Re: John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: Koen ()
Date: February 15, 2015 02:42

The world doesn't care about Pasche either. Only some die-hard Stones fans do. smoking smiley

Re: John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: PTownshend ()
Date: February 15, 2015 02:54

John Pasche came up with the logo. period

Re: John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: February 15, 2015 02:57

Quote
PTownshend
John Pasche came up with the logo. period

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

Re: John Pasche, Not Ernie Cefalu
Posted by: BBrew ()
Date: February 15, 2015 16:43

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
PTownshend
John Pasche came up with the logo. period

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know what you GasLightStreet have against this guy because you are bashing him on this site, but would it be the first time someones work had been credited to other?!? Are you 100% sure that Pasche is the only one who was involved in creating the tongue, can you proove it?? Cefalu sad that Pasche did the final version, but not the first one.It's the same Jagger/Richards get credits for every song Stones made even though it's well known that some songs were made or involved by others..
Check out the tongue on the pictures below:






Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: February 15, 2015 18:04

Look on page 1 now that BV has joined this thread with the other tongue thread. It says:

Jagger reportedly approached the Royal College of Art in 1969 looking to commission images for the band... John created his first poster artwork for the Rolling Stones in 1970 during his final year at the Royal College of Art. He was then commissioned directly by Mick Jagger to produce a logo for the band.

[www.belgraviagallery.com]

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: February 15, 2015 20:17

Quote
GasLightStreet
Look on page 1 now that BV has joined this thread with the other tongue thread. It says:

Jagger reportedly approached the Royal College of Art in 1969 looking to commission images for the band... John created his first poster artwork for the Rolling Stones in 1970 during his final year at the Royal College of Art. He was then commissioned directly by Mick Jagger to produce a logo for the band.

[www.belgraviagallery.com]

This doesn't change the fact that Cefalu also created tongue logo's around the same time. They were used by the Stones for merchandise and actually worn by the band members on shirts as shown above.

The guy is a good artist and has designed over 200 album covers, probably didn't write that wiki article so no sense bashing him.

Maybe if we changed one word in the wiki sentence it would be more accurate and solve your dilemma about it:

"At the end of 1970, Cefalu joined forces with Craig Braun, Inc. in New York, where he designed an iconic tongue logo for The Rolling Stones[citation needed] and worked on the 'Sticky Fingers' album..".

peace

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: BBrew ()
Date: February 15, 2015 20:30

The fact is that more than one design was made, and that the Pasche's one was the final one, but not his idea. And there is also that design from Alan Aldridge from 1969...

Re: First designer of Stones Tongue & Lips logo???
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: February 15, 2015 20:37

Quote
Bitches Brew
The fact is that more than one design was made, and that the Pasche's one was the final one, but not his idea. And there is also that design from Alan Aldridge from 1969...

Considering it is still being modified and (over)used I'm not sure "final one" has much meaning here. smiling smiley peace

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