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treaclefingers

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kleermaker

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
IMO, solos WAS Ronnie's thing in 75/76. He changed style in 77/78 when he and Keith started with the weaving-thing.

Funnily, Keith was the one who broke out of that, but Ronnie remained a teamplayer guitar-wise.

When Ronnie plays blues with Mick Taylor, his extended solos are back, and he plays beautifully, imo.

He never was more than a blues/funk player, though, while Mick Taylor had much more styles in him, including the classic rock guitar god approach.

Well, I think the stuff Woody did in 75/76 was a part of his job description; he was basically just filling Taylor's shoes - he continued there from where Taylor had left them - and as a great all-around guitar player he was capable to do that easily. I think that is Ronnie's forte: he can do any task needed, and he is the best man they ever got in that sense. I guess that talent of his made the 'ancient art of weaving' possible, since he was able also take care of Keith's duties. But I still wouldn't call playing extended solos as "his thing" in the same sense as Taylor having extraordinary talent in that. If some think that Wood is as great or even better than Taylor in that department, one needs to be a helluva Woodist with a particular idiosyncratic taste, and nothing wrong with that.

The way I see those Taylor years, and the classical rhythm/solo guitar split coming more and more visible as the years and tours go by, is that of natural evolution. Both guitarists stuck into what they did best. It was natural that having a player like Taylor in the band to use his best qualities. And at the same time Richards mastered the rhythm/riff art. If Woody later would offer Keith a template to 'free' more of his playing, Taylor in his years 'forced' Keith to really master his trademark 'riffmaster' stuff. In a way I also see the 'ancient art of weaving' being a result of a natural evolution, being pretty much based on Woody's personal qualities as a player.

- Doxa

As I said before I heard Ronnie play in 1976, but it wasn't a shadow of Taylor's playing in 1973. It was mediocre at best and I know a well known poster here who attended the same show and left after a short time and I can understand that. The Stones had lost their magic.

I'm really amazed by the strange theory that an average player made the Stones better. Of course it's a false theory.

Let's face it: Ronnie's solos with the Stones don't tell any story, don't have a soul or any feel in them. They're bad Taylor copies or, if they are 'new', are pointless. Yes Ronnie was there to let Richards take over, but that wasn't an improvement, because Keith is a riffmaster and a great rhythm guitarist but just a mediocre soloist. One sometimes feels embarrassed when hearing him play a solo. People often underestimate the special talent one must have to craft a creative solo. Taylor was more than able to do so, Ronnie wasn't and isn't. A bad and wrong choice after all. The theory that he kept the Stones together is just ridiculous. Without the Stones Jagger and Richards are nobodies as solo musicians and not interesting for that matter to the masses at all and they know it. Even now during those 2013/2014 tours it's obvious that both Jagger and Richards realize what the band lost when Taylor left: quality music on stage.

...and they can't bring themselves to have him onstage for a few more songs?

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MadMax
Worried About You Buenos Aires 2006. Brilliant!

Streets Of Love 2nd, "outro decoration", Paris 2006. Plays EXACTLY the notes I want to hear. Did it ONLY this show. Compare with later shows or earlier he does not use the 9th to enhance the solo, the Austin show later in the autumn is a good example.

Blinded By Rainbows.

Beast Of Burden Miami '94. Best version ever.

Hand Of Fate, Cirkus Stockholm 2003. Like heaven. Just Beautiful.

Taylor is great but to slag Ronnie?? Enjoy them both. I thank God Ronnie is in the band. Hadn't it been for him the boys would NEVER have been together as long as they have been. God bless Ronnie.

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TooTough
YCAGWYW Leeds, 82 - great solo with a different touch.

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ryanpow

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TooTough
YCAGWYW Leeds, 82 - great solo with a different touch.

I agree. this is an interesting version of the song.

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DandelionPowderman
They don't weave much anymore. Try 1978. By 1989, Keith was the lead guitar player.

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Powerage
Taylor was a really motivation for Keith's playing. Ronnie has never been...

In response to flamboyant Taylor's playing (solo and rhythm) Keith replied with his riffs.

This fantastic dynamic has been missing for years.

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kleermaker



I'm really amazed by the strange theory that an average player made the Stones better. Of course it's a false theory.

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Mathijs
If there ever was weaving it was from from 1975 to 1978, and during these years Keith was at his ever best.

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electricmud

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Mathijs
If there ever was weaving it was from from 1975 to 1978, and during these years Keith was at his ever best.

..and I would include 1981/82...


In 1975 Ronnie was just a replacement for the TOA. He had to learn tons of songs in a short time. I ever had the feeling that Ronnie kept Mick Taylor`s style of playing long /harmonic solos. You can`t change everything when there is someone new in the band and you wanna go on tour. Perhaps that`s the reason why some people here liked Ronnie`s playing in 75/76 so much.

I think that they found their own style as a band with Ron Wood when they had time in the studio for Some Girls. That created a new fresh sound and style in a way they never could have with Mick Taylor.

I deeply love Mick Taylor for his playing till today. Never missed a solo gig in my town. But I truly love Ronnie`s skills, very risky , sometimes crap, sometimes fantastic, never boring and bringing in Lapsteel or pedal steel guitar.

And seeing them onstage together is just wonderful.

Tom

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electricmud

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Mathijs
If there ever was weaving it was from from 1975 to 1978, and during these years Keith was at his ever best.

..and I would include 1981/82...


In 1975 Ronnie was just a replacement for the TOA. He had to learn tons of songs in a short time. I ever had the feeling that Ronnie kept Mick Taylor`s style of playing long /harmonic solos. You can`t change everything when there is someone new in the band and you wanna go on tour. Perhaps that`s the reason why some people here liked Ronnie`s playing in 75/76 so much.

I think that they found their own style as a band with Ron Wood when they had time in the studio for Some Girls. That created a new fresh sound and style in a way they never could have with Mick Taylor.

I deeply love Mick Taylor for his playing till today. Never missed a solo gig in my town. But I truly love Ronnie`s skills, very risky , sometimes crap, sometimes fantastic, never boring and bringing in Lapsteel or pedal steel guitar.

And seeing them onstage together is just wonderful.

Tom

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Doxa

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electricmud

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Mathijs
If there ever was weaving it was from from 1975 to 1978, and during these years Keith was at his ever best.

..and I would include 1981/82...


In 1975 Ronnie was just a replacement for the TOA. He had to learn tons of songs in a short time. I ever had the feeling that Ronnie kept Mick Taylor`s style of playing long /harmonic solos. You can`t change everything when there is someone new in the band and you wanna go on tour. Perhaps that`s the reason why some people here liked Ronnie`s playing in 75/76 so much.

I think that they found their own style as a band with Ron Wood when they had time in the studio for Some Girls. That created a new fresh sound and style in a way they never could have with Mick Taylor.

I deeply love Mick Taylor for his playing till today. Never missed a solo gig in my town. But I truly love Ronnie`s skills, very risky , sometimes crap, sometimes fantastic, never boring and bringing in Lapsteel or pedal steel guitar.

And seeing them onstage together is just wonderful.

Tom

A pretty similar picture as I have. There surely were traits of what will come later already in 1975/76, a big ship like that doesn't turn so easily, but to me the 'real' weaving years were 1978-82, when they really mastered the art (I don't know why Mathijs exludes 1981/82, but I guess he has his own well-argued reasons for that).

What you say of SOME GIRLS sessions being essential for that new sound to born - which I agree with - bring the question how much Jagger had a role in creating the new animal. He played a lot of guitar in those sessions, resulting with a thing sometimes called a 'three-guitar attack'. Also the punk-inspired down-to-earth-rockers he came up with offered a new template for Keith and Ronnie to do their thing, and many times him - Jagger - providing the basic rhythm guitar foundations. A witty Taylorite could say that was Jagger's tactical move to get some decent lead guitar from the guitar department - "I take care of the rhythm - try you guys together come up with something more interesting, there is two of you, one of you need to come up with something..."

- Doxa

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RobertJohnson
There are some great solos by Ronnie in the later years such as the solos on Gimme Shelter in 89/90 or on Beast of Burden 94/95 (on some versions at least). But the boys were on top in respect of their guitar playing in 75/76. Never they sounded as good as in those years. Keith and Ronnie were in perfect balance. And out of the perfect weaving arose some great solos like in SFTD - on both sides. One absolutely great example of a another perfect Ronnie solo is the one in Heartbreaker on LA Friday ...

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DandelionPowderman


One more element, about the weaving, is that standard tuning became the tuning of choice for Keith in this period - when writing and developing songs.

From the late 70s till the early 80s, there were very few open G-songs.

Before They Make Me Run
Too Tough
It Must Be Hell
Wanna Hold You

I think that's all, although a few TY-tracks were played in open G in the mid 70s.

ER must be the only album in this era completely without Keith's open G-guitar? Only one track on SG (Mick played open G on the title track, though).

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Doxa

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electricmud

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Mathijs
If there ever was weaving it was from from 1975 to 1978, and during these years Keith was at his ever best.

..and I would include 1981/82...


In 1975 Ronnie was just a replacement for the TOA. He had to learn tons of songs in a short time. I ever had the feeling that Ronnie kept Mick Taylor`s style of playing long /harmonic solos. You can`t change everything when there is someone new in the band and you wanna go on tour. Perhaps that`s the reason why some people here liked Ronnie`s playing in 75/76 so much.

I think that they found their own style as a band with Ron Wood when they had time in the studio for Some Girls. That created a new fresh sound and style in a way they never could have with Mick Taylor.

I deeply love Mick Taylor for his playing till today. Never missed a solo gig in my town. But I truly love Ronnie`s skills, very risky , sometimes crap, sometimes fantastic, never boring and bringing in Lapsteel or pedal steel guitar.

And seeing them onstage together is just wonderful.

Tom

A pretty similar picture as I have. There surely were traits of what will come later already in 1975/76, a big ship like that doesn't turn so easily, but to me the 'real' weaving years were 1978-82, when they really mastered the art (I don't know why Mathijs exludes 1981/82, but I guess he has his own well-argued reasons for that).

What you say of SOME GIRLS sessions being essential for that new sound to born - which I agree with - bring the question how much Jagger had a role in creating the new animal. He played a lot of guitar in those sessions, resulting with a thing sometimes called a 'three-guitar attack'. Also the punk-inspired down-to-earth-rockers he came up with offered a new template for Keith and Ronnie to do their thing, and many times him - Jagger - providing the basic rhythm guitar foundations. A witty Taylorite could say that was Jagger's tactical move to get some decent lead guitar from the guitar department - "I take care of the rhythm - try you guys together come up with something more interesting, there is two of you, one of you need to come up with something..."

- Doxa

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kleermaker

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Doxa

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electricmud

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Mathijs
If there ever was weaving it was from from 1975 to 1978, and during these years Keith was at his ever best.

..and I would include 1981/82...


In 1975 Ronnie was just a replacement for the TOA. He had to learn tons of songs in a short time. I ever had the feeling that Ronnie kept Mick Taylor`s style of playing long /harmonic solos. You can`t change everything when there is someone new in the band and you wanna go on tour. Perhaps that`s the reason why some people here liked Ronnie`s playing in 75/76 so much.

I think that they found their own style as a band with Ron Wood when they had time in the studio for Some Girls. That created a new fresh sound and style in a way they never could have with Mick Taylor.

I deeply love Mick Taylor for his playing till today. Never missed a solo gig in my town. But I truly love Ronnie`s skills, very risky , sometimes crap, sometimes fantastic, never boring and bringing in Lapsteel or pedal steel guitar.

And seeing them onstage together is just wonderful.

Tom

A pretty similar picture as I have. There surely were traits of what will come later already in 1975/76, a big ship like that doesn't turn so easily, but to me the 'real' weaving years were 1978-82, when they really mastered the art (I don't know why Mathijs exludes 1981/82, but I guess he has his own well-argued reasons for that).

What you say of SOME GIRLS sessions being essential for that new sound to born - which I agree with - bring the question how much Jagger had a role in creating the new animal. He played a lot of guitar in those sessions, resulting with a thing sometimes called a 'three-guitar attack'. Also the punk-inspired down-to-earth-rockers he came up with offered a new template for Keith and Ronnie to do their thing, and many times him - Jagger - providing the basic rhythm guitar foundations. A witty Taylorite could say that was Jagger's tactical move to get some decent lead guitar from the guitar department - "I take care of the rhythm - try you guys together come up with something more interesting, there is two of you, one of you need to come up with something..."

- Doxa

I have the feeling Jagger always has missed Taylor's playing a lot on stage.

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kleermaker

I have the feeling Jagger always has missed Taylor's playing a lot on stage.

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Doxa

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kleermaker

I have the feeling Jagger always has missed Taylor's playing a lot on stage.

He has said something to the effect that Taylor "helped him" as a singer, which I guess is something to do with Taylor's melodic leads with which Jagger could duet with or take cues from. Even today, when Taylor occasionally joins them, one can see how much Taylor is playing for singer, or with singer as his clue, including times when the singer is playing harp. It is a bit different inter-action between Taylor and Jagger as it with the two other guitar players having with Jagger. Taylor is 'positioned' differently as the other two in regards to Jagger.

But frankly I don't think he really misses Taylor, if he ever did, in that sense. The modern Stones is arranged in a way, which doesn't ask that kind of support from the guitar department. There are back up singers help him there, there is a 'musical director' Leavell with his piano providing him enough clues, etc. The result is that Jagger sings more in a key, and according to melodies than the wild frontman from the seventies ever did (of course, having his vocals coached has a role as well). My impression is that if Jagger missed Taylor it was during those golden weaving days. But I wouldn't too sure about that either. The rhythm, groove-oriented raw Keith/Ronnie axis was I suppose a good vehicle for punk-kicked and disco-inspired Jagger in 1978. It was a bit later - 1981/82 - when he seemingly started to have seconds-thoughts about how well the band worked by consitution, and according to some reports, he was was fed up actually. He didn't want to do the European leg initially (not enough money to motivate) and like I mentioned above, he wanted re-record the performances of STILL LIFE in studio. Transforming the band into a modern stadium act seemed to have certain problems taking their - especially their guitarists' - habits and routines...

- Doxa

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman


One more element, about the weaving, is that standard tuning became the tuning of choice for Keith in this period - when writing and developing songs.

From the late 70s till the early 80s, there were very few open G-songs.

Before They Make Me Run
Too Tough
It Must Be Hell
Wanna Hold You

I think that's all, although a few TY-tracks were played in open G in the mid 70s.

ER must be the only album in this era completely without Keith's open G-guitar? Only one track on SG (Mick played open G on the title track, though).

I recall Keith saying in LIFE that Taylor affected to him as a song-maker, and he started to write songs Taylor in mind. Probably that meant sticking more to riffs and his OpenG routines, which gave a distinguished room for Taylor to add his thing - reflecting the traditional rhythm/lead guitar split. I take a song like "All Down The Line" being a paradigm example of that.

- Doxa

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Doxa

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kleermaker



I'm really amazed by the strange theory that an average player made the Stones better. Of course it's a false theory.

I don't claim that that actually happened when Woody joined in, but theoretically that is possible. Having a great team player instead of a shining star might affect on the others positively; they work harder and probably take more responsibilities into their shoulders. That sometimes happens, for example, in football when a team loses its biggest star, and against all the expectations, the team might play even better before, That kind of group dynamics are interesting phenomenon.


- Doxa

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kleermaker

Who says Taylor was a shining star and not a team player (as well)?