Tell Me :
Talk
Anyone is entitled to their opinion or their personal taste, including Mathijs, who is otherwise a very knowledgeable guy. But when someone makes claims that many of us consider outrageous in support of his argument, or seems to demonstrate an unreasonable personal bias, it is perfectly appropriate to respond. As he has done so again in this thread ("Taylor can't play rhythm") I responded. Sorry you don't like it.
I've mentioned the rhythm om Live With Me. Vicious.
JJFlash - perfect two guitar balanced rhythm. Neither is 'memorable'. It's the balanced whole that counts.
If you think that one rhythm part has to be more memorable than the other then you are missing the point of rhythmic weave which you appear to support so strongly.
By the way - the weakness of Love You Live is Ronnie's weak and sloppy rhythm guitar playing, a la Faces. In 75-76 you have Keith wanting to get back to some lead playing but his rhythmic support from Ronnie is often weak and pitiful.
Infact, in the Stones, I'd be hard pushed to think of any strong and convincing rhythm playing by Ronnie, e.g. of the calibre that Taylor showed on Bitch.
The strength of the Keith\Ronnie dual approach is their interlocking lead guits, not rhythm. eg Down in the Hole and things like Imagination from the 81-82 tour.
But from 89 onwards, with exception of some tracks like Gimme Shelter and Momkeyman, they both assume a lead and rhythm approach. Start Me Up, Satisfaction - really just about everything - and it is Ronnie's lead that's his strength and not his rhythm - for the very large part.
I think Saint of Me might be Waddy...or perhaps that was another song?
I don't think anyone is criticising Taylor for deciding to overplay. Everybody knows that Mick and Keith call the shots.
In this period, though, Keith was mostly wasted - resulting in him taking the easy route with open G, capos and sticking to rhythm.
Thinking he became a better guitarist by that doesn't make sense for me, that's all. And it effected the band's sound greatly. It became too predictable for some fans. If people like that distinction between lead and rhythm (I'm not just talking about solos here) the most - more power to them. But I'm pretty sure it didn't make Keith better.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 10:53 by DandelionPowderman.
Waddy Wachtel on Saint Of Me. Keith on Let Me Go
I don't include you, but I think you're wrong about Keith's best rhythm ever. Keith's easiest rhythm ever would be more precise, imo.
If you listened to the Worried About You and All Down The Line-videos I posted (from 2013) you'll find that there's nothing wrong with how Ronnie expresses himself. More than that, he's doing it brilliantly, imo.
I don't think Mathijs belittled Taylor at all. He was merely isolating Taylor's abilities as a solo guitarist. From one guitar player's point of view, I don't disagree with him about Taylor's rhythm guitar style. I'm saying style, not skills - because what one fancies about how a mean rhythm guitar should be all comes down to aquired taste.
Ronnie can still play great solos, if you like his style - which hasn't really changed much since his Faces-days. His sound did, however, but he got that fat tone back for the 50&counting with his Les Paul now.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 12:11 by DandelionPowderman.
I agree 100%.
Ronnie's rhythm playing in 1975/1976 is sometimes ok but often weak, pointless and distracting. Lazy even. Taylor is underrated when it comes to rhythm.
Ronnies fills and licks were great though. Maybe that's his role. Too be a little jumpy, a feather like creature in sight AND sound. Hey Negrita is brilliant. His playing on the Zemiathis was great but the solo on YCAGWYW was horrible. Brown Sugar on LYL is fantastic. And he was truly great at the Mocambo, both rhythm and solo.
I'm as guilty as the next poster in these debates, but you're right of course
Here's some more good Ronnie-stuff:
Now, where's the fun in that?
Thanks DP, for those last few videos, I'd never heard the first two. Great stuff.
I'd also like to know what's up with this. If it was just a question of Mathijs attacking Taylor's musical abilities, that would be one thing, but I've been reading this board long enough to remember him also devoting considerable time to proving that the Stones don't actually owe Taylor any royalties, spreading rumours that Taylor is a cocaine addict (without producing any evidence whatsoever) and so forth. It's a shame because Mathijs, far from being a generic troll, is otherwise a knowledgeable and worthwhile IORR contributor - which makes his fairly obvious personal vendetta against Taylor all the more bizarre.
Yeah, I get that. If everybody got along and didn't argue, then this board would be way less interesting. I just wanted to throw some bait out and see what kind of responses showed up.
1. To the contrary, people have contsantly criticized Taylor for overplaying, or have assumed the split to more strict lead/rhythm roles was somehow Taylor's doing.
2. Again, I said he made the Stones a better band. He still does, every time he steps onstage. Wyman has said it, Charlie has said it, even Keith has said it in more lucid moments. Mick has tacitly agreed by saying he can't say it!
3. As to making Keith better. I maintain that Keith had to retain a sharper focus with Taylor in the band then, um, later. I don't know what kind of shape he was in in 1973, but his rhythm playing is as sharp as a tack. With Wood in the band they became the boys club, often running around grinning and lighting cigarettes (at their worst) and the musicality suffered. Now, some people seem to prefer that. OK for them.
the notion that keith and mick t were getting better - as guitar players or in any other way - in the early 70s, or having positive influences on one another, is bunk.
they were both descending further into junkiedom and as a result also getting lazy about indulging their other weaknesses - in keith's case, sloppy and simple playing, and mick taylor's case, interminable soloing over the rest of the band.
they were heroin addicts going deeper and deeper into the hole.
perhaps this is why today both keith and mick t. are faint glimmers of what they once were. just like most 70-something ex junkies.
With Ronnie in the band they became The Smoking Stones.
Wha, conform the format of the Woody Stones I suppose.
They have a good cover of Ventilator Blues on Youtube.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: April 24, 2014 23:33
Quote
kahoosier
Well after all my years on this board I would never have dreamed that one day I would agree with or come to the defense of Mathijs, but I will. I don't think he is anti-Taylor at all. He is just trying to de-mythologize him. In the late 60s and early 70s when many of the BIG BRIT stars wanted to turn the blues into their own rapid fire volume drenched solo driven music , Taylor was the man the Stones needed. But that scene imploded, as the Stones nearly did, and Ronnie has been the man needed ever since. In that era at one point it was declared Clapton was GOD, and since then he has had enough sense for his career ( and suffer the barbs of those who can't let go of 5 minute long screaming solos) to pull the plug and concentrate on crafting songs over pushing solos. Who plays the better guitar depends on the ear of the listener, Ron certainly seems willing to play a larger variety of instruments. While no platinum seller, Ron does have more solo success, indeed more success with other groups in history then Mick Taylor. Does that mean he is better? I can't tell you that but he is obviously more commercial. Anyhow, neither this thread, nor Mathijs in it, started out as another of the endless , as well as redundant and pointless Wood VS Taylor battles. All it was was an appreciation of Ronnie, a positive affirmation of what people enjoy about him. Why couldn't people just leave it there? If you don't like what you hear with Ron, don't post or go post to the zillion other threads you could be negative and continue this ridiculous " I'm right, no...I'm right" prattle. Christ there are people on this board who have still not accepted Taylor over Brian Jones, at least they have not jumped on board. I don't have a problem with people that want to proselytize their musical taste and tell the rest of us we are wrong , after all I live next door to people that listen only to classical music and bitch about my Stones all the time, but it does get tiring to listen to all the time. How about this, THIS THREAD ID TO TALK ABOUT THE SOLOS OF RONNIE WOOD THAT WE APPRECIATE, IF THERE ARE NONE THAT YOU APPRECIATE, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SAY!
Anyone is entitled to their opinion or their personal taste, including Mathijs, who is otherwise a very knowledgeable guy. But when someone makes claims that many of us consider outrageous in support of his argument, or seems to demonstrate an unreasonable personal bias, it is perfectly appropriate to respond. As he has done so again in this thread ("Taylor can't play rhythm") I responded. Sorry you don't like it.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
Deluxtone
()
Date: April 25, 2014 01:25
Quote
MathijsQuote
Deluxtone
Just all-round tighter and more forceful.
Keith at his all-time peak.
JJ Flash - dual rhythm.
Queenie.
Carol.
stray cat
Rambler
Sympathy - when not soloing
Whole approach is generally dual rhythm.
Tha Live With Me has never been bettered. Fierce Taylor rhythm to counterpoint Keith's lead riff motif.
Yeah, but in the Faces Ronnie did both Keith's and Taylor's duties.
wasn't he wonderful then?!
On Ya-Ya's there's not one rythm part of Taylor that is memorable. They even overdubbed Taylor's rhythm parts on Carol and Queenie.
Mathijs
I've mentioned the rhythm om Live With Me. Vicious.
JJFlash - perfect two guitar balanced rhythm. Neither is 'memorable'. It's the balanced whole that counts.
If you think that one rhythm part has to be more memorable than the other then you are missing the point of rhythmic weave which you appear to support so strongly.
By the way - the weakness of Love You Live is Ronnie's weak and sloppy rhythm guitar playing, a la Faces. In 75-76 you have Keith wanting to get back to some lead playing but his rhythmic support from Ronnie is often weak and pitiful.
Infact, in the Stones, I'd be hard pushed to think of any strong and convincing rhythm playing by Ronnie, e.g. of the calibre that Taylor showed on Bitch.
The strength of the Keith\Ronnie dual approach is their interlocking lead guits, not rhythm. eg Down in the Hole and things like Imagination from the 81-82 tour.
But from 89 onwards, with exception of some tracks like Gimme Shelter and Momkeyman, they both assume a lead and rhythm approach. Start Me Up, Satisfaction - really just about everything - and it is Ronnie's lead that's his strength and not his rhythm - for the very large part.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
DoomandGloom
()
Date: April 25, 2014 01:56
By the way - the weakness of Love You Live is Ronnie's weak and sloppy rhythm guitar playing I can't believe anybody went there, years ago I read a early Guitar Player interview with Steve Stills. He said one thing that carries me through whenever I play. quote was something like this "The notion of lead or rhythm guitarist is absurd, first and foremost you are a guitarist." Personally I've never known or seen a great lead player that wasn't a great rhythm one as well. Ritchie Blackmore, David Gilmore, Steve Stills, Jorma, Chuck great is great, guitar is not two instruments it is one
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 01:57 by DoomandGloom.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 01:57 by DoomandGloom.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
nomis
()
Date: April 25, 2014 02:44
hey, there's a solo on Saint of Me. I assume it's Ronnie. Or maybe it's a little of both Keith and Ronnie, I'm not sure. Then there's the solo on Let Me Go from the Emotional Rescue LP... this sounds like Ronnie. I nomimate these two as his best.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: April 25, 2014 03:23
I don't know if they are "solos", but the pedal steel breaks and bends Wood does on Whip and Before They Make Me Run on the bridges are personal favorites of mine.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
SweetThing
()
Date: April 25, 2014 05:06
Quote
nomis
hey, there's a solo on Saint of Me. I assume it's Ronnie. Or maybe it's a little of both Keith and Ronnie, I'm not sure. Then there's the solo on Let Me Go from the Emotional Rescue LP... this sounds like Ronnie. I nomimate these two as his best.
I think Saint of Me might be Waddy...or perhaps that was another song?
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 25, 2014 10:05
<Personally I've never known or seen a great lead player that wasn't a great rhythm one as well.>
This will make BB King very happy...
This will make BB King very happy...
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 25, 2014 10:10
Quote
71TeleQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
71TeleQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
71TeleQuote
MadMax
I never understood the ‘Taylor’ vs. Wood debate. Of course Taylor is a much better lead guitarist –on his peak in 1972 and 1973 Taylor was incredible, with fantastic melodic solo’s executed mesmerizing precisely. I do not recall one solo by Wood that has the same kind of emotion, melodic sense en technical prowess that can match any Taylor solo.
That said: I guitar solo is just that, a guitar solo. It’s 12 bars or 20 seconds in a piece of music of 5 minutes. And a great solo doesn’t make a mediocre piece of music any better. And that’s why I prefer the 1975 to 1982 period over the 1969 to 1973 period: I find the BAND much better in those latter, Ron Wood years. Yes I love the energy and shear excitement of 1972, yes I like the raw approach of that tour, but I find Charlie to be a much better drummer in 1975 and 1978, and Bill was at his absolute best in 1981. Richards was quite a boring rhythm player in 1973, and a fantastic lead and riff player in 1975 and 1978, and at his peak in 1981.
I just like the twin guitar attack of Wood and Richard s much better than the individual approach of Taylor and Richards, Years ago when I was in a Stones band, we found out that copying the Taylor years was much more easy than copying the Wood years. With the Taylor years it was easy to split the guitar parts and copy it precisely. With the Wood years that is much harder, and laying a good When the Whip Comes Down or Imagination turned out much more difficult than laying a 1973 version of Tumbling Dice down.
You took the Words from my mouth! Spot on! Thank God you are around Mathijs, I agree 110%. The Stones is a band, Taylor is a Beautiful legato-style solo player but we are all so lucky we've had so much fun outta both Brian, Taylor and Ronnie.
Sigh. The only thing here that's true is that you don't understand the Taylor-Wood debate. The preference for Taylor is NOT just about solos. It is about musicality, as well as how his playing made Keith and the others play better (or differently), whereas with Wood it was more of a boys club, have a good time feel (which is fine, sometimes). To only focus on solos is missing the point, in my opinion.
Please, Tele, you know better than stating that Keith became a better player by sticking to strumming out open G-chords...
But I didn't state that, DP. You should know better than to put words in my mouth.
Hm... "made Keith and the others play better (or differently)..."
At least, you're dancing on a very thin line here
I think you brought up an interesting point - Keith deciding to focus on open-G rhythm - but it wasn't the point I was making. But since you mentioned it: The Taylor-bashers often point to 1973 as an example of what they don't like: too much soloing and rhythm-lead split. This was, and always has been, Keith's band. If Keith decided to focus on opne-G, what exactly was Taylor supposed to do except play more lead? This was, in fact, driven by Keith, which is why so much of what he said later in regard to his preference for a one-guitar sound, "weaving", etc. is crap. It was Keith who brought the guitars into more separate roles, not Taylor. Just compare Ya Yas with Brussells.
I don't think anyone is criticising Taylor for deciding to overplay. Everybody knows that Mick and Keith call the shots.
In this period, though, Keith was mostly wasted - resulting in him taking the easy route with open G, capos and sticking to rhythm.
Thinking he became a better guitarist by that doesn't make sense for me, that's all. And it effected the band's sound greatly. It became too predictable for some fans. If people like that distinction between lead and rhythm (I'm not just talking about solos here) the most - more power to them. But I'm pretty sure it didn't make Keith better.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 10:53 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 25, 2014 10:15
Quote
nomis
hey, there's a solo on Saint of Me. I assume it's Ronnie. Or maybe it's a little of both Keith and Ronnie, I'm not sure. Then there's the solo on Let Me Go from the Emotional Rescue LP... this sounds like Ronnie. I nomimate these two as his best.
Waddy Wachtel on Saint Of Me. Keith on Let Me Go
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 25, 2014 10:19
I think it's funny reading the Ronnie-bashers in this thread. They have NOT taken their time to listen to, or debate, the songs I and other posters posted. Instead, they keep on nagging about Ronnie copying Taylor. Where does he do that? On the contrary, he is paying homage to Taylor, by letting important pieces of his solos remain in his own, ON A VERY FEW SONGS like ADTL and (fill inn, because I don't know the rest...).
So, WHY don't you like the 2013 solo in Worried About You, the funky break in Undercover from 1989 and GS from LA 1975 for starters?
Copying Taylor is not an allowed answer - because he doesn't do that
Let's get this thread back to what it was supposed to be!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 10:20 by DandelionPowderman.
So, WHY don't you like the 2013 solo in Worried About You, the funky break in Undercover from 1989 and GS from LA 1975 for starters?
Copying Taylor is not an allowed answer - because he doesn't do that
Let's get this thread back to what it was supposed to be!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 10:20 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
Deluxtone
()
Date: April 25, 2014 11:25
DP,
I hope you don't include me as a Ronnie basher.
It is his lead style that distinguishes him in the Stones.
His rhythm approach distinguished him in the Faces.
Mathjis apparently made this a Ronnie Stones solo thread but still couldn't resist putting Taylor down as a band player and also putting him down as a rhythm player.
It is Mathjis thesis (that Taylor is only a soloist and not a true integral band player) but the Stones certainly did not become a better band when Ronnie joined after Taylor had left. Their live revolution - taking it to a new level - began in 1969 - after a shakey start apparently. They were at their peak 1969 - 73. As someone said - Taylor can hardly be blamed for his promotion to mainly lead work by '73. The upside was that we got some of Keith's best Rhythm ever.
We can praise and enjoy both aspects of both players without having to put the other down. It's pretty obvious that Ron's best rhythm work was with the Faces. That's not a put-down.
POTENTIALLY - Keith and Ronnie's styles meshing can sound great - when it happens it's great. There are instances on record and live. The Kilburn shows showed that potential. But live in the Stones it is rarely achieved - and both guitarists have been out of sync on most major recent tours - except this one eg the O2 shows - but still with Jagger and Levell at the helm most of the warhorse numbers don't give any opportunity for free interplay. It's mostly scripted. Keith has more licence it seems - and eg on JJFlash Ronnie just plays the same chiming, record-style role that he has played since '89. On Sympathy he's a non-entity. A far cry from '69 or from '81 for that matter. It' not a put-down of Ronnie. It's how they have elected to present certain numbers - playing it safe. He is called to do a lead on YCAGWYW. Often very good. Very, very good infact.
But Ronnie as an all-round guitar palyer cannot fully express himself in Stones context any longer. No reason to cry. It's a marvel that they are still at it.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 20:47 by Deluxtone.
I hope you don't include me as a Ronnie basher.
It is his lead style that distinguishes him in the Stones.
His rhythm approach distinguished him in the Faces.
Mathjis apparently made this a Ronnie Stones solo thread but still couldn't resist putting Taylor down as a band player and also putting him down as a rhythm player.
It is Mathjis thesis (that Taylor is only a soloist and not a true integral band player) but the Stones certainly did not become a better band when Ronnie joined after Taylor had left. Their live revolution - taking it to a new level - began in 1969 - after a shakey start apparently. They were at their peak 1969 - 73. As someone said - Taylor can hardly be blamed for his promotion to mainly lead work by '73. The upside was that we got some of Keith's best Rhythm ever.
We can praise and enjoy both aspects of both players without having to put the other down. It's pretty obvious that Ron's best rhythm work was with the Faces. That's not a put-down.
POTENTIALLY - Keith and Ronnie's styles meshing can sound great - when it happens it's great. There are instances on record and live. The Kilburn shows showed that potential. But live in the Stones it is rarely achieved - and both guitarists have been out of sync on most major recent tours - except this one eg the O2 shows - but still with Jagger and Levell at the helm most of the warhorse numbers don't give any opportunity for free interplay. It's mostly scripted. Keith has more licence it seems - and eg on JJFlash Ronnie just plays the same chiming, record-style role that he has played since '89. On Sympathy he's a non-entity. A far cry from '69 or from '81 for that matter. It' not a put-down of Ronnie. It's how they have elected to present certain numbers - playing it safe. He is called to do a lead on YCAGWYW. Often very good. Very, very good infact.
But Ronnie as an all-round guitar palyer cannot fully express himself in Stones context any longer. No reason to cry. It's a marvel that they are still at it.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 20:47 by Deluxtone.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
Come On
()
Date: April 25, 2014 11:48
I think Ronnie is a truly brilliant addition when it comes to guitar playing besides Keith Richards, and has been in all year, almost 40 to be precise. Mick Taylor also has changed and developed his guitar playing much outside of the Rolling Stones. We can not sit and listen to our 40-year-old discs and think that time stands still ...
2 1 2 0
2 1 2 0
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 25, 2014 12:07
Quote
Deluxtone
DP,
I hope you don't include me as a Ronnie basher.
It is his lead style that distinguishes him in the Stones.
His rhythm approach distinguished him in the Faces.
Mathjis apparently made this a Ronnie Stones solo but still couldn't resist putting him down as a band player and also putting him down as a rhythm player.
It is Mathjis thesis and the Stones certainly did not become a better band when Ronnie joined after Taylor had left. their live revolution - taking it to a new level began in 1969 - after a shakey start apparently. They were at their peak. As someone said - Taylor can hardly be blamed for his promotion to mainly lead work by '73. The upside was that we got some of Keith's best Rhythm ever.
We can praise and enjoy both aspects of both players without having to put the other down. It's pretty obvious that Ron's best rhythm work was with the Faces. That's not a put-down.
POTENTIALLY - Keith and Ronnie's styles meshing can sound great - when it happens it's great. There are instances on record and live. The Kilburn shows showed that potential. But live in the Stones it is rarely achieved - and both guitarists have been out of sync on most major recent tours - except this one eg the O" shows - but still with Jagger and Levell at the helm most of the warhorse numbers don't give any opportunity for free interplay. It's mostly scripted. Keith has more licence it seems - and eg on JJFlash Ronnie just plays the same chiming, record-style role he has played since '89. On Sympathy he's a non-entity. A far cry from '69 or from '81 for that matter. It' not a put-down of Ronnie. It's how they have elected to present certain numbers - playing it safe. He is called to do a lead on YCAGWYW. Often very good. Very, very good infact.
But Ronnie as an all-round guitar palyer cannot fully express himself in Stones context any longer. No reason to cry. It's a marvel that they are still at it.
I don't include you, but I think you're wrong about Keith's best rhythm ever. Keith's easiest rhythm ever would be more precise, imo.
If you listened to the Worried About You and All Down The Line-videos I posted (from 2013) you'll find that there's nothing wrong with how Ronnie expresses himself. More than that, he's doing it brilliantly, imo.
I don't think Mathijs belittled Taylor at all. He was merely isolating Taylor's abilities as a solo guitarist. From one guitar player's point of view, I don't disagree with him about Taylor's rhythm guitar style. I'm saying style, not skills - because what one fancies about how a mean rhythm guitar should be all comes down to aquired taste.
Ronnie can still play great solos, if you like his style - which hasn't really changed much since his Faces-days. His sound did, however, but he got that fat tone back for the 50&counting with his Les Paul now.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 12:11 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: April 25, 2014 12:12
Quote
Deluxtone
By the way - the weakness of Love You Live is Ronnie's weak and sloppy rhythm guitar playing, a la Faces. In 75-76 you have Keith wanting to get back to some lead playing but his rhythmic support from Ronnie is often weak and pitiful.
Infact, in the Stones, I'd be hard pushed to think of any strong and convincing rhythm playing by Ronnie, e.g. of the calibre that Taylor showed on Bitch.
The strength of the Keith\Ronnie dual approach is their interlocking lead guits, not rhythm. eg Down in the Hole and things like Imagination from the 81-82 tour.
But from 89 onwards, with exception of some tracks like Gimme Shelter and Momkeyman, they both assume a lead and rhythm approach. Start Me Up, Satisfaction - really just about everything - and it is Ronnie's lead that's his strength and not his rhythm - for the very large part.
I agree 100%.
Ronnie's rhythm playing in 1975/1976 is sometimes ok but often weak, pointless and distracting. Lazy even. Taylor is underrated when it comes to rhythm.
Ronnies fills and licks were great though. Maybe that's his role. Too be a little jumpy, a feather like creature in sight AND sound. Hey Negrita is brilliant. His playing on the Zemiathis was great but the solo on YCAGWYW was horrible. Brown Sugar on LYL is fantastic. And he was truly great at the Mocambo, both rhythm and solo.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
HonkeyTonkFlash
()
Date: April 25, 2014 13:27
This whole thread could be replaced by some simple statement like, "Some people prefer the Stones with Mick Taylor; some prefer them with Ron Wood; same applies to each guy's guitar solos." Why do people have to fight back and forth? Taste is subjective. Nobody has to be "right."
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 25, 2014 13:50
Quote
HonkeyTonkFlash
This whole thread could be replaced by some simple statement like, "Some people prefer the Stones with Mick Taylor; some prefer them with Ron Wood; same applies to each guy's guitar solos." Why do people have to fight back and forth? Taste is subjective. Nobody has to be "right."
I'm as guilty as the next poster in these debates, but you're right of course
Here's some more good Ronnie-stuff:
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
latebloomer
()
Date: April 25, 2014 14:06
Quote
HonkeyTonkFlash
This whole thread could be replaced by some simple statement like, "Some people prefer the Stones with Mick Taylor; some prefer them with Ron Wood; same applies to each guy's guitar solos." Why do people have to fight back and forth? Taste is subjective. Nobody has to be "right."
Now, where's the fun in that?
Thanks DP, for those last few videos, I'd never heard the first two. Great stuff.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
Stoneburst
()
Date: April 25, 2014 14:17
Quote
71Tele
Mathijs has been peddling this rather bizarre hypothesis for years now: Taylor can't play rhythm, Taylor "hardly played" on Exile, any guitarist could have done what Taylor did in the Stones, etc. It's not just that he prefers Wood, it's that he has some sort of anti-Taylor agenda, trying to minimize accomplishments that are obvious to anyone with the LPs and a set of ears.
Fortunately we all have Ya Yas, Brussells, Exile, GHS, and all the other evidence that easily refutes these contentions. Mathijs should just come clean and tell us all what his real problem with Taylor is. Did Taylor refuse an autograph at some point, or what? It's really strange.
I'd also like to know what's up with this. If it was just a question of Mathijs attacking Taylor's musical abilities, that would be one thing, but I've been reading this board long enough to remember him also devoting considerable time to proving that the Stones don't actually owe Taylor any royalties, spreading rumours that Taylor is a cocaine addict (without producing any evidence whatsoever) and so forth. It's a shame because Mathijs, far from being a generic troll, is otherwise a knowledgeable and worthwhile IORR contributor - which makes his fairly obvious personal vendetta against Taylor all the more bizarre.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
HonkeyTonkFlash
()
Date: April 25, 2014 15:12
Quote
latebloomerQuote
HonkeyTonkFlash
This whole thread could be replaced by some simple statement like, "Some people prefer the Stones with Mick Taylor; some prefer them with Ron Wood; same applies to each guy's guitar solos." Why do people have to fight back and forth? Taste is subjective. Nobody has to be "right."
Now, where's the fun in that?
Yeah, I get that. If everybody got along and didn't argue, then this board would be way less interesting. I just wanted to throw some bait out and see what kind of responses showed up.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
DoomandGloom
()
Date: April 25, 2014 18:35
Actually BB was a great comper. His little game of not playing chords is just part of his show where he trades licks with his vocals... He is more than capable of making music all by himself. I spent some time with BB and once broke his Lucille.. another tale..Quote
DandelionPowderman
<Personally I've never known or seen a great lead player that wasn't a great rhythm one as well.>
This will make BB King very happy...
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
IrelandCalling4
()
Date: April 25, 2014 18:41
I thought Ronnie was amazing on the releases we have from 1975, 1976 and 1978 - his playing style meshed so perfectly with Keith's, and the band had a wonderfully raunchy, loose style. Different to the Taylor style, but just as mesmerising for those mid to late 70s tours.
Listening to Ronnie on the 'Live in Texas' DVD 1978, he plays wonderfully; last night I had "LA Friday" going and again, Ronnie was brilliant throughout the show.
Listening to Ronnie on the 'Live in Texas' DVD 1978, he plays wonderfully; last night I had "LA Friday" going and again, Ronnie was brilliant throughout the show.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: April 25, 2014 19:00
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DandelionPowdermanQuote
71TeleQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
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MadMax
I never understood the ‘Taylor’ vs. Wood debate. Of course Taylor is a much better lead guitarist –on his peak in 1972 and 1973 Taylor was incredible, with fantastic melodic solo’s executed mesmerizing precisely. I do not recall one solo by Wood that has the same kind of emotion, melodic sense en technical prowess that can match any Taylor solo.
That said: I guitar solo is just that, a guitar solo. It’s 12 bars or 20 seconds in a piece of music of 5 minutes. And a great solo doesn’t make a mediocre piece of music any better. And that’s why I prefer the 1975 to 1982 period over the 1969 to 1973 period: I find the BAND much better in those latter, Ron Wood years. Yes I love the energy and shear excitement of 1972, yes I like the raw approach of that tour, but I find Charlie to be a much better drummer in 1975 and 1978, and Bill was at his absolute best in 1981. Richards was quite a boring rhythm player in 1973, and a fantastic lead and riff player in 1975 and 1978, and at his peak in 1981.
I just like the twin guitar attack of Wood and Richard s much better than the individual approach of Taylor and Richards, Years ago when I was in a Stones band, we found out that copying the Taylor years was much more easy than copying the Wood years. With the Taylor years it was easy to split the guitar parts and copy it precisely. With the Wood years that is much harder, and laying a good When the Whip Comes Down or Imagination turned out much more difficult than laying a 1973 version of Tumbling Dice down.
You took the Words from my mouth! Spot on! Thank God you are around Mathijs, I agree 110%. The Stones is a band, Taylor is a Beautiful legato-style solo player but we are all so lucky we've had so much fun outta both Brian, Taylor and Ronnie.
Sigh. The only thing here that's true is that you don't understand the Taylor-Wood debate. The preference for Taylor is NOT just about solos. It is about musicality, as well as how his playing made Keith and the others play better (or differently), whereas with Wood it was more of a boys club, have a good time feel (which is fine, sometimes). To only focus on solos is missing the point, in my opinion.
Please, Tele, you know better than stating that Keith became a better player by sticking to strumming out open G-chords...
But I didn't state that, DP. You should know better than to put words in my mouth.
Hm... "made Keith and the others play better (or differently)..."
At least, you're dancing on a very thin line here
I think you brought up an interesting point - Keith deciding to focus on open-G rhythm - but it wasn't the point I was making. But since you mentioned it: The Taylor-bashers often point to 1973 as an example of what they don't like: too much soloing and rhythm-lead split. This was, and always has been, Keith's band. If Keith decided to focus on opne-G, what exactly was Taylor supposed to do except play more lead? This was, in fact, driven by Keith, which is why so much of what he said later in regard to his preference for a one-guitar sound, "weaving", etc. is crap. It was Keith who brought the guitars into more separate roles, not Taylor. Just compare Ya Yas with Brussells.
I don't think anyone is criticising Taylor for deciding to overplay. Everybody knows that Mick and Keith call the shots.
In this period, though, Keith was mostly wasted - resulting in him taking the easy route with open G, capos and sticking to rhythm.
Thinking he became a better guitarist by that doesn't make sense for me, that's all. And it effected the band's sound greatly. It became too predictable for some fans. If people like that distinction between lead and rhythm (I'm not just talking about solos here) the most - more power to them. But I'm pretty sure it didn't make Keith better.
1. To the contrary, people have contsantly criticized Taylor for overplaying, or have assumed the split to more strict lead/rhythm roles was somehow Taylor's doing.
2. Again, I said he made the Stones a better band. He still does, every time he steps onstage. Wyman has said it, Charlie has said it, even Keith has said it in more lucid moments. Mick has tacitly agreed by saying he can't say it!
3. As to making Keith better. I maintain that Keith had to retain a sharper focus with Taylor in the band then, um, later. I don't know what kind of shape he was in in 1973, but his rhythm playing is as sharp as a tack. With Wood in the band they became the boys club, often running around grinning and lighting cigarettes (at their worst) and the musicality suffered. Now, some people seem to prefer that. OK for them.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
sonomastone
()
Date: April 25, 2014 19:08
Quote
71TeleQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
71TeleQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
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DandelionPowdermanQuote
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MadMax
I never understood the ‘Taylor’ vs. Wood debate. Of course Taylor is a much better lead guitarist –on his peak in 1972 and 1973 Taylor was incredible, with fantastic melodic solo’s executed mesmerizing precisely. I do not recall one solo by Wood that has the same kind of emotion, melodic sense en technical prowess that can match any Taylor solo.
That said: I guitar solo is just that, a guitar solo. It’s 12 bars or 20 seconds in a piece of music of 5 minutes. And a great solo doesn’t make a mediocre piece of music any better. And that’s why I prefer the 1975 to 1982 period over the 1969 to 1973 period: I find the BAND much better in those latter, Ron Wood years. Yes I love the energy and shear excitement of 1972, yes I like the raw approach of that tour, but I find Charlie to be a much better drummer in 1975 and 1978, and Bill was at his absolute best in 1981. Richards was quite a boring rhythm player in 1973, and a fantastic lead and riff player in 1975 and 1978, and at his peak in 1981.
I just like the twin guitar attack of Wood and Richard s much better than the individual approach of Taylor and Richards, Years ago when I was in a Stones band, we found out that copying the Taylor years was much more easy than copying the Wood years. With the Taylor years it was easy to split the guitar parts and copy it precisely. With the Wood years that is much harder, and laying a good When the Whip Comes Down or Imagination turned out much more difficult than laying a 1973 version of Tumbling Dice down.
You took the Words from my mouth! Spot on! Thank God you are around Mathijs, I agree 110%. The Stones is a band, Taylor is a Beautiful legato-style solo player but we are all so lucky we've had so much fun outta both Brian, Taylor and Ronnie.
Sigh. The only thing here that's true is that you don't understand the Taylor-Wood debate. The preference for Taylor is NOT just about solos. It is about musicality, as well as how his playing made Keith and the others play better (or differently), whereas with Wood it was more of a boys club, have a good time feel (which is fine, sometimes). To only focus on solos is missing the point, in my opinion.
Please, Tele, you know better than stating that Keith became a better player by sticking to strumming out open G-chords...
But I didn't state that, DP. You should know better than to put words in my mouth.
Hm... "made Keith and the others play better (or differently)..."
At least, you're dancing on a very thin line here
I think you brought up an interesting point - Keith deciding to focus on open-G rhythm - but it wasn't the point I was making. But since you mentioned it: The Taylor-bashers often point to 1973 as an example of what they don't like: too much soloing and rhythm-lead split. This was, and always has been, Keith's band. If Keith decided to focus on opne-G, what exactly was Taylor supposed to do except play more lead? This was, in fact, driven by Keith, which is why so much of what he said later in regard to his preference for a one-guitar sound, "weaving", etc. is crap. It was Keith who brought the guitars into more separate roles, not Taylor. Just compare Ya Yas with Brussells.
I don't think anyone is criticising Taylor for deciding to overplay. Everybody knows that Mick and Keith call the shots.
In this period, though, Keith was mostly wasted - resulting in him taking the easy route with open G, capos and sticking to rhythm.
Thinking he became a better guitarist by that doesn't make sense for me, that's all. And it effected the band's sound greatly. It became too predictable for some fans. If people like that distinction between lead and rhythm (I'm not just talking about solos here) the most - more power to them. But I'm pretty sure it didn't make Keith better.
1. To the contrary, people have contsantly criticized Taylor for overplaying, or have assumed the split to more strict lead/rhythm roles was somehow Taylor's doing.
2. Again, I said he made the Stones a better band. He still does, every time he steps onstage. Wyman has said it, Charlie has said it, even Keith has said it in more lucid moments. Mick has tacitly agreed by saying he can't say it!
3. As to making Keith better. I maintain that Keith had to retain a sharper focus with Taylor in the band then, um, later. I don't know what kind of shape he was in in 1973, but his rhythm playing is as sharp as a tack. With Wood in the band they became the boys club, often running around grinning and lighting cigarettes (at their worst) and the musicality suffered. Now, some people seem to prefer that. OK for them.
the notion that keith and mick t were getting better - as guitar players or in any other way - in the early 70s, or having positive influences on one another, is bunk.
they were both descending further into junkiedom and as a result also getting lazy about indulging their other weaknesses - in keith's case, sloppy and simple playing, and mick taylor's case, interminable soloing over the rest of the band.
they were heroin addicts going deeper and deeper into the hole.
perhaps this is why today both keith and mick t. are faint glimmers of what they once were. just like most 70-something ex junkies.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: April 25, 2014 19:26
Quote
71TeleQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
71TeleQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
71TeleQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
71TeleQuote
MadMax
I never understood the ‘Taylor’ vs. Wood debate. Of course Taylor is a much better lead guitarist –on his peak in 1972 and 1973 Taylor was incredible, with fantastic melodic solo’s executed mesmerizing precisely. I do not recall one solo by Wood that has the same kind of emotion, melodic sense en technical prowess that can match any Taylor solo.
That said: I guitar solo is just that, a guitar solo. It’s 12 bars or 20 seconds in a piece of music of 5 minutes. And a great solo doesn’t make a mediocre piece of music any better. And that’s why I prefer the 1975 to 1982 period over the 1969 to 1973 period: I find the BAND much better in those latter, Ron Wood years. Yes I love the energy and shear excitement of 1972, yes I like the raw approach of that tour, but I find Charlie to be a much better drummer in 1975 and 1978, and Bill was at his absolute best in 1981. Richards was quite a boring rhythm player in 1973, and a fantastic lead and riff player in 1975 and 1978, and at his peak in 1981.
I just like the twin guitar attack of Wood and Richard s much better than the individual approach of Taylor and Richards, Years ago when I was in a Stones band, we found out that copying the Taylor years was much more easy than copying the Wood years. With the Taylor years it was easy to split the guitar parts and copy it precisely. With the Wood years that is much harder, and laying a good When the Whip Comes Down or Imagination turned out much more difficult than laying a 1973 version of Tumbling Dice down.
You took the Words from my mouth! Spot on! Thank God you are around Mathijs, I agree 110%. The Stones is a band, Taylor is a Beautiful legato-style solo player but we are all so lucky we've had so much fun outta both Brian, Taylor and Ronnie.
Sigh. The only thing here that's true is that you don't understand the Taylor-Wood debate. The preference for Taylor is NOT just about solos. It is about musicality, as well as how his playing made Keith and the others play better (or differently), whereas with Wood it was more of a boys club, have a good time feel (which is fine, sometimes). To only focus on solos is missing the point, in my opinion.
Please, Tele, you know better than stating that Keith became a better player by sticking to strumming out open G-chords...
But I didn't state that, DP. You should know better than to put words in my mouth.
Hm... "made Keith and the others play better (or differently)..."
At least, you're dancing on a very thin line here
I think you brought up an interesting point - Keith deciding to focus on open-G rhythm - but it wasn't the point I was making. But since you mentioned it: The Taylor-bashers often point to 1973 as an example of what they don't like: too much soloing and rhythm-lead split. This was, and always has been, Keith's band. If Keith decided to focus on opne-G, what exactly was Taylor supposed to do except play more lead? This was, in fact, driven by Keith, which is why so much of what he said later in regard to his preference for a one-guitar sound, "weaving", etc. is crap. It was Keith who brought the guitars into more separate roles, not Taylor. Just compare Ya Yas with Brussells.
I don't think anyone is criticising Taylor for deciding to overplay. Everybody knows that Mick and Keith call the shots.
In this period, though, Keith was mostly wasted - resulting in him taking the easy route with open G, capos and sticking to rhythm.
Thinking he became a better guitarist by that doesn't make sense for me, that's all. And it effected the band's sound greatly. It became too predictable for some fans. If people like that distinction between lead and rhythm (I'm not just talking about solos here) the most - more power to them. But I'm pretty sure it didn't make Keith better.
1. To the contrary, people have contsantly criticized Taylor for overplaying, or have assumed the split to more strict lead/rhythm roles was somehow Taylor's doing.
2. Again, I said he made the Stones a better band. He still does, every time he steps onstage. Wyman has said it, Charlie has said it, even Keith has said it in more lucid moments. Mick has tacitly agreed by saying he can't say it!
3. As to making Keith better. I maintain that Keith had to retain a sharper focus with Taylor in the band then, um, later. I don't know what kind of shape he was in in 1973, but his rhythm playing is as sharp as a tack. With Wood in the band they became the boys club, often running around grinning and lighting cigarettes (at their worst) and the musicality suffered. Now, some people seem to prefer that. OK for them.
With Ronnie in the band they became The Smoking Stones.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 25, 2014 20:20
The Smoking Stones are posters on this board, kleerie
They're a good band, too.
They're a good band, too.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: April 25, 2014 20:27
Quote
DandelionPowderman
The Smoking Stones are posters on this board, kleerie
They're a good band, too.
Wha, conform the format of the Woody Stones I suppose.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 25, 2014 20:38
Quote
kleermakerQuote
DandelionPowderman
The Smoking Stones are posters on this board, kleerie
They're a good band, too.
Wha, conform the format of the Woody Stones I suppose.
They have a good cover of Ventilator Blues on Youtube.
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
Deluxtone
()
Date: April 25, 2014 21:09
Actually I think that Mick Jagger is a better rhythm player in the Stones than Ronnie but he's never given the chance on stage!
(Stop Breaking Down, Sway, Crazy Mama, Sad Sad Sad to mention a few).
Mick J on lead - now that Wood be interesting though!
I know, I know, separate thread. 'Sorry'.
I think that if Mathijs had been younger and become fan of the Stones in the Taylor years and seen them live then first - ie his seminal Stones live moment - then that would have stuck with him so strongly that he wold not have difficulty accepting Taylor as a genuine Stones band guitarist.
For those who first saw the band with Ronnie in 75-76, '78, '81-82 and so on - they'll always accept Ronnie as the main 2nd man - it's such a personal thing your first Stones live show. And so to then retrospectively accept Taylor who was before your first 'conversion' experience is very difficult. Rather like having to change faith in a way. Hmmm..... a bit heavy, but you get my drift.
But taylor can play Rhythm! Broken Hands anyone?!
(Stop Breaking Down, Sway, Crazy Mama, Sad Sad Sad to mention a few).
Mick J on lead - now that Wood be interesting though!
I know, I know, separate thread. 'Sorry'.
I think that if Mathijs had been younger and become fan of the Stones in the Taylor years and seen them live then first - ie his seminal Stones live moment - then that would have stuck with him so strongly that he wold not have difficulty accepting Taylor as a genuine Stones band guitarist.
For those who first saw the band with Ronnie in 75-76, '78, '81-82 and so on - they'll always accept Ronnie as the main 2nd man - it's such a personal thing your first Stones live show. And so to then retrospectively accept Taylor who was before your first 'conversion' experience is very difficult. Rather like having to change faith in a way. Hmmm..... a bit heavy, but you get my drift.
But taylor can play Rhythm! Broken Hands anyone?!
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
HonkeyTonkFlash
()
Date: April 25, 2014 21:20
Why not get this thread back on topic - great Ron Wood solos:
Imagination (live)
Summer Romance
SFTD (Love You Live)
Brown Sugar (Love You Live)
Hot Stuff (LYL)
Neighbours
Black Limousine
Undercover
Tie You Up
Out of Tears
Blinded by Rainbows
Happy (LYL)
Shattered (Still Life)
Pre-Stones
I Wish it Would Rain (Faces Live)
It's All Over Now (Faces Live)
Jealous Guy (Faces Live)
....and so many more.....
Imagination (live)
Summer Romance
SFTD (Love You Live)
Brown Sugar (Love You Live)
Hot Stuff (LYL)
Neighbours
Black Limousine
Undercover
Tie You Up
Out of Tears
Blinded by Rainbows
Happy (LYL)
Shattered (Still Life)
Pre-Stones
I Wish it Would Rain (Faces Live)
It's All Over Now (Faces Live)
Jealous Guy (Faces Live)
....and so many more.....
Re: The Greatest Ron Wood Solos
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 25, 2014 21:32
Tie You Up is Keith. Ronnie on bass only.
Hot Stuff on LYL is excellent!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 23:51 by DandelionPowderman.
Hot Stuff on LYL is excellent!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-04-25 23:51 by DandelionPowderman.
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