For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.
Quote
Doxa
Hmm.. on the second thought, I am not happy at all of that description "role in the band" (by elunse), For me it is more like a question of dynamics within the band: the whole band is like a field of force, driven by different tendencies; if you put some odd a force there - like Taylor now - it affects to everything. Before those numbers - starting with "Midnight Rambler" - I couldn't believe that adding one 'new' player there, could have so much affect to the whole sound and dynamics of the band.
My guess - based on on experience - that is Jagger who is not happy shaking the boat too much now. The whole "Vegas" boat, with its predictable features, is pretty much his brain-child. He wants to keep it safe and sure.
Maybe Richards as well during those strongest Vegas days, when he took his second frontman role, many times just freeriding the music, a bit too seriously. But that Richards the show man, the performer, is gone. I think his approach to music is different now. To me that has been the biggest musical surprise within the core band during this new tour. Keith "blames" Charlie for having more responsibilities to his and Ronnie's shoulders, and I love to think he is right (that Charlie is also a bit tired of the old concept). Keith is a shadow of his past as a player, but I really appreciate his dedication to the job now. It is the music that comes first, not the show (or even ego). It is the "old" Keith with teh philosophy of "I shine when the band shines". Jagger - by contrast - is the same as always (even though having fine-tuned his own act). But even the idea of going more to the core, guitar-based sound is in itself a move out of the safe and sure formula they've used for years. (And I have the picture that it was Jagger who wanted to get rid of that back in the 80's when the formula was created).
So you add to the already more strenghtened and powerful and responsible guitar section a powerhouse called Mick Taylor, then what happens? It's no Vegas no longer, baby! That Mick could "control" Keith and Ronnie, and keep them in a safe and sure track, wasn't any longer possible when the duo was strengthened with Taylor.
So my concern - if anything I speculate here has any point - is how Jagger reacts to the new "revolution" happening within the band, which might lead the group to a wild guitar-lead - music comes first - rock and roll band, to be odds with many show-aspects, choreographies, lights etc of the show. How far Jagger lets that go? Like said, I am happy if this three number comes a standard, and I don't need much more, but I have the feeling that there are people in the very band who would like to go it further.
It's now what I understand with Keith saying of him and Ronnie "needing Taylor". It's not that they can't fill their own post by their recent conditions, but that of having Taylor would make the band more to go according to their visions how to the band should sound like. They re-discovered the musicians in themselves.
- Doxa
Quote
alimenteQuote
Doxa
Hmm.. on the second thought, I am not happy at all of that description "role in the band" (by elunse), For me it is more like a question of dynamics within the band: the whole band is like a field of force, driven by different tendencies; if you put some odd a force there - like Taylor now - it affects to everything. Before those numbers - starting with "Midnight Rambler" - I couldn't believe that adding one 'new' player there, could have so much affect to the whole sound and dynamics of the band.
My guess - based on on experience - that is Jagger who is not happy shaking the boat too much now. The whole "Vegas" boat, with its predictable features, is pretty much his brain-child. He wants to keep it safe and sure.
Maybe Richards as well during those strongest Vegas days, when he took his second frontman role, many times just freeriding the music, a bit too seriously. But that Richards the show man, the performer, is gone. I think his approach to music is different now. To me that has been the biggest musical surprise within the core band during this new tour. Keith "blames" Charlie for having more responsibilities to his and Ronnie's shoulders, and I love to think he is right (that Charlie is also a bit tired of the old concept). Keith is a shadow of his past as a player, but I really appreciate his dedication to the job now. It is the music that comes first, not the show (or even ego). It is the "old" Keith with teh philosophy of "I shine when the band shines". Jagger - by contrast - is the same as always (even though having fine-tuned his own act). But even the idea of going more to the core, guitar-based sound is in itself a move out of the safe and sure formula they've used for years. (And I have the picture that it was Jagger who wanted to get rid of that back in the 80's when the formula was created).
So you add to the already more strenghtened and powerful and responsible guitar section a powerhouse called Mick Taylor, then what happens? It's no Vegas no longer, baby! That Mick could "control" Keith and Ronnie, and keep them in a safe and sure track, wasn't any longer possible when the duo was strengthened with Taylor.
So my concern - if anything I speculate here has any point - is how Jagger reacts to the new "revolution" happening within the band, which might lead the group to a wild guitar-lead - music comes first - rock and roll band, to be odds with many show-aspects, choreographies, lights etc of the show. How far Jagger lets that go? Like said, I am happy if this three number comes a standard, and I don't need much more, but I have the feeling that there are people in the very band who would like to go it further.
It's now what I understand with Keith saying of him and Ronnie "needing Taylor". It's not that they can't fill their own post by their recent conditions, but that of having Taylor would make the band more to go according to their visions how to the band should sound like. They re-discovered the musicians in themselves.
- Doxa
I can't quite see an earthshake-like "turn to gold" of the Stones-sound as a whole. I'd love to be proven wrong, but there's still the danger that the clocks will be turned back for the upcoming shows. "Sway" was the "vote" - so it would be no surprise at all if we won't hear it again. "CYHMK" is a more likely candidate for a setlist constant - as a replacement for Emotional Rescue. Then we have Midnight Rambler plus Satisfaction (where Taylor is not really audible at all). Even with all four songs on board, it's still just four songs - for the rest of the show everything would stay the same - Taylor not being able to breathe new life into those songs because he simply does not play on them.
The problem I see is best documented in Sway: It still does not sound convincing, there are wrong chords, missed cues and a somewhat phoned-in sounding lead vocal by Mick. But, of course, there's Taylor's strong solo. But it's not like the icing on top of an already delicious cake, it's more like the icing on top of a, let's be honest here, pile of shit. It clearly shows that even Taylor's presence cannot save a lot when the rest of the band failed to do their homework. I can listen to Taylor's solo and say "wow! great!". But I can't listen to the song as a whole because there's still too many fuckups.
Consequently, I am a bit hesitant to read too much into the current events: There's no revolution going on that Jagger should be afraid of. Las Vegas ist still alive, it's just that Taylor's adding some nice touches far. But for a radical change of the Stones live sound in general, it needs more. A lot more.
Quote
roby
Love in Vain with Taylor and with a crazy Keith...
Quote
Doxa
I admit I am a bit romantical fool here, or an idealist, ánd see more there than actually there is, but let's say that I personally am - or was - so sick and tired for the Vegas concept that I welcome any change for better - musically more intersting and challenging - with a hurray.
But with Taylor it all realized - the idea of the Stones being guitar-driven band. Taylor sounded like he is never heard of that concept. He is simply way too wild, too unpredicable musician to go "the show first, the music second", teh latter being a some kind of safe and sure soundtrack to the event. And I think that affected to the whole band, and to my eyes - first time for I don't know how long - the band suddendly started to sound like a group of musicians, not just performers.
But like said, the actual difference to a "typical" Vegas number is not probably so radical, but for me it is. For me the plain presence of Taylor bring some electricity or even magic to the band. Like they trusting more to their musicianship. Just feeling it.
- Doxa
Quote
liddasQuote
Doxa
I admit I am a bit romantical fool here, or an idealist, ánd see more there than actually there is, but let's say that I personally am - or was - so sick and tired for the Vegas concept that I welcome any change for better - musically more intersting and challenging - with a hurray.
But with Taylor it all realized - the idea of the Stones being guitar-driven band. Taylor sounded like he is never heard of that concept. He is simply way too wild, too unpredicable musician to go "the show first, the music second", teh latter being a some kind of safe and sure soundtrack to the event. And I think that affected to the whole band, and to my eyes - first time for I don't know how long - the band suddendly started to sound like a group of musicians, not just performers.
But like said, the actual difference to a "typical" Vegas number is not probably so radical, but for me it is. For me the plain presence of Taylor bring some electricity or even magic to the band. Like they trusting more to their musicianship. Just feeling it.
- Doxa
Doxa,
I don't think it is a matter of being romantic, foolish or whatever. Music is about emotions, after all, and when you describe emotions it is every easy to pass from seeing the same glass half full to half empty without any reason that can be rationally explained.
If you keep the sentiments out of the discussion for a moment, you will see that during the so called Vegas Era there have been many similar stellar moments. Only that those who are into Mick Taylor's style of playing (not necessarily Taylorites) tend to dismiss or neglect them. For them, the glass will be always half empty.
Nevertheless the band never stopped to give us (me) so many great great music also after 1989.
Just to make an example, the Knocking that I saw in 2003 at the MSG was just as good and adventurous (musically speaking) as the one with Taylor. If you ask me, of course I even prefer Ron Wood's take of the song. But that's me. And that is what makes me see the glass (completely) full.
I am the first to see the strict format imposed to all stones shows since 1989 as a limitation. A necessary limitation, yet a limitation. To see Keith play along a recorded conga track always makes me sad.
Now for you and many others the antidote is Taylor.
I am the first to be enthusiastic for Taylor being back. I never saw him perform in the days, in 1969 I was one year old, but Ya Yas, and the Leeds, Perth and Brussells boots are pillars of my musical formation. In London it was great to have him on stage again, and have a taste of what used to be.
But I fear that in the best scenario Taylor can only bring back something similar to what the band was in HIS days.
I used the word "fear" because for one, like me, who is madly in love with the Brian Jones era with the 78 - 82 live shows being a close second, seeing the only true wild cat of the bunch - Ron Wood - even lower in the mix is very bad news ...
I'm digressing now.
What I really wanted to point out to everybody who hated and hates the vegas years, now that after repeated listens of a vegas era product you are a little more acquainted with the vegas sound, go back and dig your vegas era boots. You might find more than one surprise!
C
Quote
His Majesty
That Monkey Man doesn't give me the chills, to me it is partly the music because they generally lack the bite of their pre Steel Wheels eras. True though that in a smaller environment and without some of the stadium show gloss such things would be something special to witness.
Now, imagine the above good performance with some of the edge and improvised unpredictability Taylor is currently bringing to the stage.
Quote
DandelionPowderman
To me, this performance is wonderful, albeit a little light on guitars.
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
To me, this performance is wonderful, albeit a little light on guitars.
Hmm... for that problem I know a cure...
But for us happy for having Mick "the musician" Taylor there, and at least keeping the spot he has achieved by now, there is a nice recent quote by Jagger in Independent (thanks to proudmary in other thread):
"I thought about this yesterday, how strange it will be to turn around on stage at Hyde Park and see Mick Taylor there again. But it's nice. He's playing very well."
It doesn't look bad from boss' side either.
- Doxa
Quote
bv
I am NOT one of those who want Mick Taylor to replace Ronnie. Still you can hear the moment Mick Taylor is on stage he is there, because his style and playing is unique.
[...]
Having Mick Taylor as a guest on a few selected songs where he can shine and give us his special style is just fantastic, a true treat for Stones fans, but I want Ronnie on stage for all of the show. Ronnie is as important for the Stones as Mick, Keith and Charlie.
Bjornulf
Quote
RobertJohnsonQuote
roby
Love in Vain with Taylor and with a crazy Keith...
Thanks for posting, but this isn't Mick Taylor, but Ronnie Wood on the Barbarians tour 1979. Nice version, although the sound quality isn't quite good.
Quote
emotionalbarbecue
MT alone did not succeeded.The whole band in stage succeeded.
This is not a MT issue in itself. This new stage belongs to the whole band and I hope Mick, Keith, Ron and Charlie let it flow and face the challange.
The mere 50th anniversary celebration has scalated to a new and likely not forecasted dimension: the musical dimension. They surprinsingly have a lot of work ahead of them....
Quote
RobertJohnsonQuote
roby
Love in Vain with Taylor and with a crazy Keith...
Thanks for posting, but this isn't Mick Taylor, but Ronnie Wood on the Barbarians tour 1979. Nice version, although the sound quality isn't quite good.
Quote
71Tele
Doxa, get with the program. The Vegas Era is over. We are now in the Three Weavers Era (courtesy of Thrylan).
Quote
71Tele
The Vegas Era is over. We are now in the Three Weavers Era (courtesy of Thrylan).