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Mathijs


Well, at that time I had so many guitars and amps I wanted to clean out the gear I mainly had from a collectors point of view, and only wanted to keep the stuff I really used in the bands I was in. Now most is gone, but there is some gear I regret I sold. The Conqueror is one fo them, as a '63 Humingbird and a 60's Tele that was really, really good. Oh well.

Mathijs

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flilflam
I think it is terrible. That era, with the ridiculous garb and attempts to copy the sounds of the Beatles' Sergeant Pepper, is the lost era of the Stones, as far as I am concerned. I can only snicker when I force myself to listen to it. I counted 3 chords in the entire song.

Oh well, to each his own.

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tomk
So y'all think the bell-like effect is a guitar? I always thought it was a celesta, recorded pretty hot.

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mstmst

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flilflam
I think it is terrible. That era, with the ridiculous garb and attempts to copy the sounds of the Beatles' Sergeant Pepper, is the lost era of the Stones, as far as I am concerned. I can only snicker when I force myself to listen to it. I counted 3 chords in the entire song.

Oh well, to each his own.

Seriously, Dude, if having more than three chords in a song is important to you, you may be on the wrong site ...

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His Majesty

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tomk
So y'all think the bell-like effect is a guitar? I always thought it was a celesta, recorded pretty hot.

Gly Johns: "Er, Keith? Are you still doing that ping?
Keith Richard: "Yeah!"

So it seems it is coming from the guitar, if so, how it is being achieved is the question that remains un answered... for now.

It must be another instrument!

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tomk


Another instrument? A celesta?
If it's a guitar, the only thing I can think of is a harmonic. On one of those Hendrix Octavia boxes maybe? The word "ping" suggests it's a guitar, I suppose, unless that idea was shelved for something else. I haven't heard the boots you're talking about (not all of them).

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His Majesty

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tomk

It pays to listen more before commenting.

Just trying to make conversation. If that's your attitude, well...best to ya.

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tomk

Just trying to make conversation. If that's your attitude, well...best to ya.

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His Majesty

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tomk

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His Majesty

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tomk

It pays to listen more before commenting.

Just trying to make conversation. If that's your attitude, well...best to ya.

Huh? That was directed at myself.

As in, I ought to have listened more before babbling about the ping being from the guitar.

Oh, okay. Cheers, mate.

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wupperstein
I am waiting for a live performance of "Citadel", "2000 Man" and "In Another Land".

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flilflam
I think it is terrible. That era, with the ridiculous garb and attempts to copy the sounds of the Beatles' Sergeant Pepper, is the lost era of the Stones, as far as I am concerned. I can only snicker when I force myself to listen to it. I counted 3 chords in the entire song.

Oh well, to each his own.

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Mathijs
Been listening to all 146 outtakes of Citadel, and there’s some hints…

From Request and Requires:

Take 5 is the first one with mellotron and the ping sound. Take 5e has Richards adjusting the volume of the guitar, and an adjustment to the ping sound seems to be made. Take 6 has the ping and hard struck E chord so on time, the sound does seem to be induced by the guitar signal. On the intro of take 16 it seems like the ping sound is responding to the drums, not to the guitar. Just before take 22 Johns ask Keith something I can’t understand, the response is ‘yeah’ and he opens the volume of the guitar, which seems to induce the ping sound.

From Satanic Box:
In take 20 (actually 19), at 1.05 Keith makes a timing mistake on the guitar. The ping makes the exact same mistake. At 1.33 (take 20) the same double mistake happens and the ping is gone for some time. At 2.39 Glyn Johns ask ‘Keith, are you still doing that ping?’. Keith: ‘yeah’, then strikes guitar lightly and the ping sound is there again.

So, Keith does the ping for sure. Another indication is the timing of the ping: it coincides so exact with the timing of Richards, including mistakes, that it seems impossible for another musician to induce the ping sound. Then, the ping mostly coincides with Richards’ downstrokes on the 2 and 4, but whenever a more difficult part is played by Richards, the ping starts to miss the beat several times. At the start of take 25, Charlie says to Keith ‘you gotta start the kick now’ and keith answers ‘yeah’ with a ping.

Concerning the sound of the ping: it sounds like a dampened glockenspiel, but does a Glockenspiel have such high E? And, the sound of the ping is exactly the same on all takes –same length, same attack, same presence. Only the volume changes. This might rule out a manually struck instrument. Then, on Keith’s guitar there’s tremolo and slap delay. The ping has the same slap delay. Most likely the tremolo is from the Conqueror, the slap delay from the studio board. The slap delay from guitar and ping is exactly the same in timing (about 25 ms). So either the ping is picked up through the same microphone as the guitar, or both the guitar and ping sound are routed through the same delay machine.

My conclusion so far is that the ping sound is induced by the guitar signal. It is not played ‘manually’ by anyone, there’s evidence that the ping comes from Keith. I have no idea what the effect is that is being used –there where sound generators already, there where tape machines like the mellotron. How it works is unclear to me, but it might be controlled by the volume of the guitar, added with some basic settings like on a tape delay at the time: in fourths or eights, or in milliseconds.

But I am quite positive that it is not any real instrument like a glockenspiel played by anyone other than Richards.

Mathijs

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His Majesty
So much focusing on the ping.

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DandelionPowderman

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Mathijs
Been listening to all 146 outtakes of Citadel, and there’s some hints…

From Request and Requires:

Take 5 is the first one with mellotron and the ping sound. Take 5e has Richards adjusting the volume of the guitar, and an adjustment to the ping sound seems to be made. Take 6 has the ping and hard struck E chord so on time, the sound does seem to be induced by the guitar signal. On the intro of take 16 it seems like the ping sound is responding to the drums, not to the guitar. Just before take 22 Johns ask Keith something I can’t understand, the response is ‘yeah’ and he opens the volume of the guitar, which seems to induce the ping sound.

From Satanic Box:
In take 20 (actually 19), at 1.05 Keith makes a timing mistake on the guitar. The ping makes the exact same mistake. At 1.33 (take 20) the same double mistake happens and the ping is gone for some time. At 2.39 Glyn Johns ask ‘Keith, are you still doing that ping?’. Keith: ‘yeah’, then strikes guitar lightly and the ping sound is there again.

So, Keith does the ping for sure. Another indication is the timing of the ping: it coincides so exact with the timing of Richards, including mistakes, that it seems impossible for another musician to induce the ping sound. Then, the ping mostly coincides with Richards’ downstrokes on the 2 and 4, but whenever a more difficult part is played by Richards, the ping starts to miss the beat several times. At the start of take 25, Charlie says to Keith ‘you gotta start the kick now’ and keith answers ‘yeah’ with a ping.

Concerning the sound of the ping: it sounds like a dampened glockenspiel, but does a Glockenspiel have such high E? And, the sound of the ping is exactly the same on all takes –same length, same attack, same presence. Only the volume changes. This might rule out a manually struck instrument. Then, on Keith’s guitar there’s tremolo and slap delay. The ping has the same slap delay. Most likely the tremolo is from the Conqueror, the slap delay from the studio board. The slap delay from guitar and ping is exactly the same in timing (about 25 ms). So either the ping is picked up through the same microphone as the guitar, or both the guitar and ping sound are routed through the same delay machine.

My conclusion so far is that the ping sound is induced by the guitar signal. It is not played ‘manually’ by anyone, there’s evidence that the ping comes from Keith. I have no idea what the effect is that is being used –there where sound generators already, there where tape machines like the mellotron. How it works is unclear to me, but it might be controlled by the volume of the guitar, added with some basic settings like on a tape delay at the time: in fourths or eights, or in milliseconds.

But I am quite positive that it is not any real instrument like a glockenspiel played by anyone other than Richards.

Mathijs

Very interesting - thanks, Mathijs.

Now, I'm gonna get this Satanic-boot. Dunno why I never downloaded it...

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2000 LYFH

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DandelionPowderman

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Mathijs
Been listening to all 146 outtakes of Citadel, and there’s some hints…

From Request and Requires:

Take 5 is the first one with mellotron and the ping sound. Take 5e has Richards adjusting the volume of the guitar, and an adjustment to the ping sound seems to be made. Take 6 has the ping and hard struck E chord so on time, the sound does seem to be induced by the guitar signal. On the intro of take 16 it seems like the ping sound is responding to the drums, not to the guitar. Just before take 22 Johns ask Keith something I can’t understand, the response is ‘yeah’ and he opens the volume of the guitar, which seems to induce the ping sound.

From Satanic Box:
In take 20 (actually 19), at 1.05 Keith makes a timing mistake on the guitar. The ping makes the exact same mistake. At 1.33 (take 20) the same double mistake happens and the ping is gone for some time. At 2.39 Glyn Johns ask ‘Keith, are you still doing that ping?’. Keith: ‘yeah’, then strikes guitar lightly and the ping sound is there again.

So, Keith does the ping for sure. Another indication is the timing of the ping: it coincides so exact with the timing of Richards, including mistakes, that it seems impossible for another musician to induce the ping sound. Then, the ping mostly coincides with Richards’ downstrokes on the 2 and 4, but whenever a more difficult part is played by Richards, the ping starts to miss the beat several times. At the start of take 25, Charlie says to Keith ‘you gotta start the kick now’ and keith answers ‘yeah’ with a ping.

Concerning the sound of the ping: it sounds like a dampened glockenspiel, but does a Glockenspiel have such high E? And, the sound of the ping is exactly the same on all takes –same length, same attack, same presence. Only the volume changes. This might rule out a manually struck instrument. Then, on Keith’s guitar there’s tremolo and slap delay. The ping has the same slap delay. Most likely the tremolo is from the Conqueror, the slap delay from the studio board. The slap delay from guitar and ping is exactly the same in timing (about 25 ms). So either the ping is picked up through the same microphone as the guitar, or both the guitar and ping sound are routed through the same delay machine.

My conclusion so far is that the ping sound is induced by the guitar signal. It is not played ‘manually’ by anyone, there’s evidence that the ping comes from Keith. I have no idea what the effect is that is being used –there where sound generators already, there where tape machines like the mellotron. How it works is unclear to me, but it might be controlled by the volume of the guitar, added with some basic settings like on a tape delay at the time: in fourths or eights, or in milliseconds.

But I am quite positive that it is not any real instrument like a glockenspiel played by anyone other than Richards.

Mathijs

Very interesting - thanks, Mathijs.

Now, I'm gonna get this Satanic-boot. Dunno why I never downloaded it...

Same here Mathijs, thanks for the investigation. I also need to get my hands on these boots. I guess I'm in the minority, but TSMR has always been one of my favorite albums by the Stones. Coming off the road after 3 long years of touring and being able to relax and explore new sounds, IMHO just fascinating.

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Mathijs
Been listening to all 146 outtakes of Citadel, and there’s some hints…

From Request and Requires:

Take 5 is the first one with mellotron and the ping sound. Take 5e has Richards adjusting the volume of the guitar, and an adjustment to the ping sound seems to be made. Take 6 has the ping and hard struck E chord so on time, the sound does seem to be induced by the guitar signal. On the intro of take 16 it seems like the ping sound is responding to the drums, not to the guitar. Just before take 22 Johns ask Keith something I can’t understand, the response is ‘yeah’ and he opens the volume of the guitar, which seems to induce the ping sound.

From Satanic Box:
In take 20 (actually 19), at 1.05 Keith makes a timing mistake on the guitar. The ping makes the exact same mistake. At 1.33 (take 20) the same double mistake happens and the ping is gone for some time. At 2.39 Glyn Johns ask ‘Keith, are you still doing that ping?’. Keith: ‘yeah’, then strikes guitar lightly and the ping sound is there again.

So, Keith does the ping for sure. Another indication is the timing of the ping: it coincides so exact with the timing of Richards, including mistakes, that it seems impossible for another musician to induce the ping sound. Then, the ping mostly coincides with Richards’ downstrokes on the 2 and 4, but whenever a more difficult part is played by Richards, the ping starts to miss the beat several times. At the start of take 25, Charlie says to Keith ‘you gotta start the kick now’ and keith answers ‘yeah’ with a ping.

Concerning the sound of the ping: it sounds like a dampened glockenspiel, but does a Glockenspiel have such high E? And, the sound of the ping is exactly the same on all takes –same length, same attack, same presence. Only the volume changes. This might rule out a manually struck instrument. Then, on Keith’s guitar there’s tremolo and slap delay. The ping has the same slap delay. Most likely the tremolo is from the Conqueror, the slap delay from the studio board. The slap delay from guitar and ping is exactly the same in timing (about 25 ms). So either the ping is picked up through the same microphone as the guitar, or both the guitar and ping sound are routed through the same delay machine.

My conclusion so far is that the ping sound is induced by the guitar signal. It is not played ‘manually’ by anyone, there’s evidence that the ping comes from Keith. I have no idea what the effect is that is being used –there where sound generators already, there where tape machines like the mellotron. How it works is unclear to me, but it might be controlled by the volume of the guitar, added with some basic settings like on a tape delay at the time: in fourths or eights, or in milliseconds.

But I am quite positive that it is not any real instrument like a glockenspiel played by anyone other than Richards.

Mathijs

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His Majesty
Ace!!!

Where did you get the info from? Is that a quote and someone elses diagram or yours?

If that was how the sound was achieved I reckon it might be a Vox thing as according to an early 1967 Beat Instrumental Keith and Brian visited their factory and were given some special effects.

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Mathijs
Not my info nor my diagram. What I still can't get my head around is where this ping sound is coming from, or what the purpose of this thingy is. I mean, it really is a weird gizzmo, all these leads and connections just to get a ping sound, that's weird isn't it? Or is it really the 60's?

Mathijs