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swiss

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71Tele
hb threw up a provacative hyposthesis (that, based on a video, Gram had some kind of Jagger obsession) he shouldn't be surprised by passionate responses from those that didn't agree. There are plenty of opinions when it comes to Gram Parsons and the only thing I can't understand is why some people don't want to acknowledge that one individual - Gram in this case - cannot contain both positive and negative aspects, the same as members of a certain rock 'n' roll group we all enjoy. In my case, I both enjoy a lot of Gram's music and dislike a lot of the mythology about him, so where does that put me in the Great Gram Debate?

As for Naturalust, if I may make a friendly observation: The "peace" sign-off has gotten tired. It is particularly odd at the end of contentious posts. What is it, 1969? How about signing off with something else for a while, like "cantelope", or "Schenectady", so we could have a bit of a break?

Cheers.

I haven't posted a second time on this thread for a couple of reasons. I do very much appreciate this post by Tele and the one by Andrew---I agree that if the intent is to engage in discussion or debate the reactions are mostly 5-fiving people who are pretty much in lockstep and going after the most vitriolic. It does make for a high-spirited thread, but, as Tele says, there seems to be no attempt to even consider a middle ground. I took a bunch of time to write out my thoughts on the matter, but that wasn't even acknowledged; guess it wasn't off the rails or provocative enough.

As for "peace" I personally don't give a flying fantango how someone signs off -- and I'm pretty sure the perverse side of myself would might kick in and I would continue signing off with "peace" myself if people were getting bent out of shape about my saying that.

And naturalust, I'm not in the "don't go changin'" camp. You are and always have been a righteous dude. And I can appreciate that you react against that which you perceive as bullying and throwing one's weight around. The prob here, it seems, that a couple times you seem to have sloshed over from righteous to self-righteous.

But, in all, I don't care much---I sometimes pop onto this thread, but mostly not because it's become pretty unpleasant on the part of both main posters.

I have very positive associations with both of you, and this thread won't change that. But the tone and direction has unfortunately veered seriously south several times.

And, actually, this thread does seem to have been launched with the intent to stir things up and to be provocative, more than genuinely to catalyze thoughtful measured discussion--e.g., Gram Parsons "obsessed" with Mick. There's no crime in doing that, but the intent seems clear. And when someone is provocative in that way, some people will feel provoked, and will respond to being poked at. And there does appear to be sort of slightly subterranean barbs in the initial and subsequent post aimed at people who believe there's credence to Gram Parsons' having had influence on the music of the Rolling Stones (of some significance). My intelligence doesn't feel insulted, per se, but it's a little distasteful.

Incidentally, the rolodex/speed-dial portion of this thread was enormously amusing--I was having a sad day and ended up laughing so hard at that exchange. Also, hbwriter, your saying that when you typed "i Phone" it was transformed into #$%^&*(. When I first read it, I was like, Dude--what did you say!??! because it was so unlike you to swear so badly that it would be bleeped out!

As for the video....jeepers. It was the times. I wish I had more stake in being "right" on this one, but I don't, cuz if I did I would round up a bunch of videos from a range of bands/performers from that time period---Mick didn't start it with Gram Parsons aping him---it was a very campy prancey dancey swishy foppy time. To me, it just looked like Gram was having fun and being silly.

And finally, just because Mick Jagger doesn't rhapsodize about, or even much mention, Gram Parsons means very little. And when we get bent out of shape about Keith perpetuating his view....shouldn't we also be wondering why Mick doesn't claim his narrative or version of reality, rather than slamming Keith for asserting his?

-swiss

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andrewm
Again, I really like that video. I just see it as a charming relic of its time and the first time I saw it, 20 years ago, I didn't think, "wow, he's totally obsessed with Jagger here". May have thought, "wow, he's really camping it up", but, so what? Who cares?

HB, as I said earlier in this relentless thread, I could care less whether anyone likes or dislikes Parsons' music, I know how I feel about it. And, I could certainly care less about any bickering on here between you and anyone else-that's just....weird. But, you really do seem to be trying to, I dunno, pick at a scab here, for want of a better way to put it. And despite your protestations that you're just interested in healthy debate, you don't actually respond to any of the so-called healthy debate, you just respond to people who agree with you or people who vehemently disagree.

I told myself I wouldn't post on this again, but to reiterate: it seems like it's a personal thing for you. I haven't read the bio in question but I've read the Ben Fong-Torres book, the Sid Griffin book and the Polly Parsons co-write and I get it: flawed human being, probably not much fun to be in a band with. But, why would that stop me loving the man's voice or his music? And your constant dismissal of Gram's music as tepid, weak, bland , whatever else you've called it, is I think what maybe annoys some people, like you're trying to provoke, and not in a fun way. The argument you keep pressing is that people who do claim to like it are simply in thrall to the legend, to the mystique, and can't think for themselves. That's what I take from it, anyway, and I find that kind of an insult to my intelligence.

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Naturalust
Nice Ropeeni, you are just the one I'm talking about then. Nice work. I can see the wonderful contributions you have made to this and other threads , great stories, nice words, a complete package. peace

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lem motlow
go to YOUTUBE and punch keith richards/gram parsons in the search.a video will come up from keiths old website where they ask him:

"did gram parsons influence the stones to play country music"

its about a 3 minute video but the first thing he says is"we cut those songs shortly before i met gram" and later-"i've been listening to blues and country since before i even played guitar"

so the answer to the question of did the country influence in the rolling stones music come from gram parsons-NO,which is probably why mick never mentions him,he had 0 effect.

the guy sat around getting high and strumming an acoustic at keiths house for a couple of months and people have him f/cking co-writing wild horses,its a joke.if keith actually says in his book"gram turned me on to country music" as someone claimed earlier then maybe he smacked his head falling out of the tree a little harder than we originally thought.

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ROPENI

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lem motlow
go to YOUTUBE and punch keith richards/gram parsons in the search.a video will come up from keiths old website where they ask him:

"did gram parsons influence the stones to play country music"

its about a 3 minute video but the first thing he says is"we cut those songs shortly before i met gram" and later-"i've been listening to blues and country since before i even played guitar"

so the answer to the question of did the country influence in the rolling stones music come from gram parsons-NO,which is probably why mick never mentions him,he had 0 effect.

the guy sat around getting high and strumming an acoustic at keiths house for a couple of months and people have him f/cking co-writing wild horses,its a joke.if keith actually says in his book"gram turned me on to country music" as someone claimed earlier then maybe he smacked his head falling out of the tree a little harder than we originally thought.

Great lem,maybe this will put to rest the Gram myth,that some people are trying to perpetuate here,lets face it he was nothing more than a hanger on at Nellcote for a few weeks,did drugs with Keith,strummed the guitar and then was kicked out,never to hear from The Stones again,it would be nice for someone to confront Keith with his words from back then vs his bullshit in "Life"

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filstan

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ROPENI

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lem motlow
go to YOUTUBE and punch keith richards/gram parsons in the search.a video will come up from keiths old website where they ask him:

"did gram parsons influence the stones to play country music"

its about a 3 minute video but the first thing he says is"we cut those songs shortly before i met gram" and later-"i've been listening to blues and country since before i even played guitar"

so the answer to the question of did the country influence in the rolling stones music come from gram parsons-NO,which is probably why mick never mentions him,he had 0 effect.

the guy sat around getting high and strumming an acoustic at keiths house for a couple of months and people have him f/cking co-writing wild horses,its a joke.if keith actually says in his book"gram turned me on to country music" as someone claimed earlier then maybe he smacked his head falling out of the tree a little harder than we originally thought.

Great lem,maybe this will put to rest the Gram myth,that some people are trying to perpetuate here,lets face it he was nothing more than a hanger on at Nellcote for a few weeks,did drugs with Keith,strummed the guitar and then was kicked out,never to hear from The Stones again,it would be nice for someone to confront Keith with his words from back then vs his bullshit in "Life"

This thread has become really cruel and mean spirited.

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stonesrule
I am another who admires lem motlow's posts.

Anyone anywhere who is "cruel and meanspirited" bothers me.

Re Gram, who can blame him for wanting to hang out with "the band" of that time?

Loyalty is a trait I admire. Jagger has been loyal and treated Keith more than fairly for years. The band has put up with a lot from Keith.

Keith can be a very good person. He let himself down in many parts of "Life" including remarks about Jagger, even Anita who may have become a gradual mess. But she was Keith's woman, and he treated her and other family members badly.
As the "head of the household," he was a disaster.

This does not mean that the Keith of today is a terrible person. Flawed, as we all are, to some degree. He disrespected the band who made him rich and famous, put his ego above the music. In his heart, he knows this.

So we move on and give him a break.

Lengthy threads in this vein remind me of reality TV. And not in a good way.

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stonesrule
I am another who admires lem motlow's posts.

Anyone anywhere who is "cruel and meanspirited" bothers me.

Re Gram, who can blame him for wanting to hang out with "the band" of that time?

Loyalty is a trait I admire. Jagger has been loyal and treated Keith more than fairly for years. The band has put up with a lot from Keith.

Keith can be a very good person. He let himself down in many parts of "Life" including remarks about Jagger, even Anita who may have become a gradual mess. But she was Keith's woman, and he treated her and other family members badly.
As the "head of the household," he was a disaster.

This does not mean that the Keith of today is a terrible person. Flawed, as we all are, to some degree. He disrespected the band who made him rich and famous, put his ego above the music. In his heart, he knows this.

So we move on and give him a break.

Lengthy threads in this vein remind me of reality TV. And not in a good way.

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Marie

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stonesrule
I am another who admires lem motlow's posts.

Anyone anywhere who is "cruel and meanspirited" bothers me.

Re Gram, who can blame him for wanting to hang out with "the band" of that time?

Loyalty is a trait I admire. Jagger has been loyal and treated Keith more than fairly for years. The band has put up with a lot from Keith.

Keith can be a very good person. He let himself down in many parts of "Life" including remarks about Jagger, even Anita who may have become a gradual mess. But she was Keith's woman, and he treated her and other family members badly.
As the "head of the household," he was a disaster.

This does not mean that the Keith of today is a terrible person. Flawed, as we all are, to some degree. He disrespected the band who made him rich and famous, put his ego above the music. In his heart, he knows this.

So we move on and give him a break.

Lengthy threads in this vein remind me of reality TV. And not in a good way.

Doesn't Keith pay Anita's bills? Pretty generous I'd say since Angela is to turn 40 this month. The ones who were hurt imo were Marlon and Angela. Especially Angela who was sent to live with Keith's mother at an early age. Keith treated Anita badly? How about vice versa....

I like Gram Parsons and having been raised in the South I grew up on country music. Having said that most people in the South (as well as other parts of the country) have never heard of Gram Parsons. No offense...as I said I like Gram Parsons.

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Marie

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stonesrule
I am another who admires lem motlow's posts.

Anyone anywhere who is "cruel and meanspirited" bothers me.

Re Gram, who can blame him for wanting to hang out with "the band" of that time?

Loyalty is a trait I admire. Jagger has been loyal and treated Keith more than fairly for years. The band has put up with a lot from Keith.

Keith can be a very good person. He let himself down in many parts of "Life" including remarks about Jagger, even Anita who may have become a gradual mess. But she was Keith's woman, and he treated her and other family members badly.
As the "head of the household," he was a disaster.

This does not mean that the Keith of today is a terrible person. Flawed, as we all are, to some degree. He disrespected the band who made him rich and famous, put his ego above the music. In his heart, he knows this.

So we move on and give him a break.

Lengthy threads in this vein remind me of reality TV. And not in a good way.

Doesn't Keith pay Anita's bills? Pretty generous I'd say since Angela is to turn 40 this month. The ones who were hurt imo were Marlon and Angela. Especially Angela who was sent to live with Keith's mother at an early age. Keith treated Anita badly? How about vice versa....

I like Gram Parsons and having been raised in the South I grew up on country music. Having said that most people in the South (as well as other parts of the country) have never heard of Gram Parsons. No offense...as I said I like Gram Parsons.

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Bliss

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Marie

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stonesrule
I am another who admires lem motlow's posts.

Anyone anywhere who is "cruel and meanspirited" bothers me.

Re Gram, who can blame him for wanting to hang out with "the band" of that time?

Loyalty is a trait I admire. Jagger has been loyal and treated Keith more than fairly for years. The band has put up with a lot from Keith.

Keith can be a very good person. He let himself down in many parts of "Life" including remarks about Jagger, even Anita who may have become a gradual mess. But she was Keith's woman, and he treated her and other family members badly.
As the "head of the household," he was a disaster.

This does not mean that the Keith of today is a terrible person. Flawed, as we all are, to some degree. He disrespected the band who made him rich and famous, put his ego above the music. In his heart, he knows this.

So we move on and give him a break.

Lengthy threads in this vein remind me of reality TV. And not in a good way.

Doesn't Keith pay Anita's bills? Pretty generous I'd say since Angela is to turn 40 this month. The ones who were hurt imo were Marlon and Angela. Especially Angela who was sent to live with Keith's mother at an early age. Keith treated Anita badly? How about vice versa....

I like Gram Parsons and having been raised in the South I grew up on country music. Having said that most people in the South (as well as other parts of the country) have never heard of Gram Parsons. No offense...as I said I like Gram Parsons.

Keith supports Anita and I suspect that is in exchange for her not writing a book about her experiences with the RS.

Why do you think Angela was especially hurt as a result of being sent to live with Doris? It would seem that Doris was a loving and responsible mother and grandmother.

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lem motlow
thats the problem with keith,what he says depends on how he's feeling that day about the particular person or subject at hand and it doesnt always jibe with reality,he's just not reliable.

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lem motlow
i wonder why he doesnt get all sentimental and carry on about his time with ry cooder.

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stonesrule
He let himself down in many parts of "Life"...Flawed, as we all are, to some degree. He disrespected the band who made him rich and famous, put his ego above the music. In his heart, he knows this.

So we move on and give him a break.

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Marie
Or...Keith may have felt it was the right thing to do. I doubt Anita wants to write about her experiences with the RS because she would probably not come out looking too good herself. I'm sure Doris was a very responsible and loving grandmother, but it still wasn't her parents. Angela may have thought that Marlon was able to live with Keith and Anita, why not her? It would be only natural for her to feel a little resentment.

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stonesrule
"royal We"? Foolish me for thinking that all of us posting in this thread were having a conversation

Have it YOUR way Swiss warrior. This thread can go forever as far as I'm concerned.

Enjoy!

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Naturalust
I finally figured it out.... Gram must've slept with all these naysayers wives, back before the cruel and difficult divorces. peace

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ROPENI

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Naturalust
I finally figured it out.... Gram must've slept with all these naysayers wives, back before the cruel and difficult divorces. peace

WOW,very deep,you have outdone yourself with this one....