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Naturalust
I apologize to for the second time hb. Not likely to change my sign off anytime soon, sorry it bothers you so much.

And I will say a second time, you have nothing to apoligize to him for (maybe to bv, cuz it is his board) but no one else. You simply replied to nasty posts. I read and I saw nothing you posted which you need to apologize for. You are good man Naturalust, you just fell for a bait thread. There is no right or wrong in these types of thread, it is opinion based, and designed to stir the pot and cause problems, which it did perfectly.

Bv- I will resist the urge to answer when being initially insulted - as is what happened here when someone disagreed with my opinion and thus belittled it. Sorry about that and thanks again for providing the forum - that said, I do think, for the most part, this has evolved into a very compelling discussion and I hope it can continue.

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hbwriter
Bv- I will resist the urge to answer when being initially insulted - as is what happened here when someone disagreed with my opinion and thus belittled it.....

Disagreeing with an opinion DOES NOT MEAN belittling it, or insulting you... it is simply disagreeing.

of course... thats just like my opinion, man

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Max'sKansasCity

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hbwriter
Bv- I will resist the urge to answer when being initially insulted - as is what happened here when someone disagreed with my opinion and thus belittled it.....

Disagreeing with an opinion DOES NOT MEAN belittling it, or insulting you... it is simply disagreeing.

absolutely - plenty of people have disagreed here and that's great - respectful debate. But you can easily go back and read where this went off the rails - the line: "Take it easy hbwriter, no sense in dragging Grams name through the dirt here. Save it for the book. peace" - it was not just disagreeing - it was also suggesting the thread has zero relevance. That's disrespectful in my book (and I'm not sure what "save it for the book' even means) Max, anyone can also easily see how you like to come after my posts with all sorts of vitriol - that's the beauty of this forum - most of it is forever - so please, if you would, as BV has so rightfully suggested, leave this aspect alone, the personal side, and focus on the topic at hand....(and this is certainly not a "bait" thread - come on - to dismiss it as such insults anyone who posted a serious comment here - it's a compelling topic which is why it has elicited so many thoughtful comments)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-31 23:54 by hbwriter.

as far as the subject at hand - has anyone else here read the excellent book, "20,000 Roads... the ballad of Gram Parsons"? It really is well written - and I think the writer, a passionate Parsons devotee, isolates some interesting things - at the Nellcote sesions, there's literally a day when Gram's "Rolling Stones World" comes crumbling down - the day he is banished from the castle. He was never asked to play on anything, despite the many guests that stumbled in to play, and Keith said something to the effect of, "Gram was too much of a gent to insert himself into the process" - a royal kiss off if there ever was one.

Then, back in London, the orders were that Gram and Gretchen were not to be allowed to stay in any Stones-related abodes - again, he was clearly being chopped off at the knees - he NEVER saw Keith again after that.

So I think the modern Keith quotes about Gram's influence are just some bits of historic meddling - designed to poke Jagger in the eye, and let Keith align himself with the ever-burgeoning "Church of Gram" that just DRIPS musical cred -TODAY, Keith can benefit from Gram - back then? Not so much.

Just an opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-31 23:45 by hbwriter.

HB, so what happened according to the book? Why did GP's Stones world come crumbling down?
Keith's stance towards Gram has always been a little mystifying to me. Great friends day in day out; many beautiful photos of them obviously immersed in music and toke, and then wham.

No comment on the poison of the thread so far, but want to say that I have loved Gram Parson's music. No, his songs are not all masterpieces, and he isn't the greatest singer, but IMO he has an allure; something that can't be bought, or learned. When I read about him turning girl's heads and hearts, and lighting up the room I can believe easily.

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Palace Revolution 2000
HB, so what happened according to the book? Why did GP's Stones world come crumbling down?
Keith's stance towards Gram has always been a little mystifying to me. Great friends day in day out; many beautiful photos of them obviously immersed in music and toke, and then wham.

No comment on the poison of the thread so far, but want to say that I have loved Gram Parson's music. No, his songs are not all masterpieces, and he isn't the greatest singer, but IMO he has an allure; something that can't be bought, or learned. When I read about him turning girl's heads and hearts, and lighting up the room I can believe easily.

well, as the book lays it out, in the basic snake pit that was Nellcote, Parsons had merely started getting in the way and getting under people's skin - he was jealous that someone was eyeing his girlfriend, and he acted like it (I guess a huge breach of protocol back then) and he was high most of the time, as the author describes it, that he was simply deadweight in the premises and that when it came time to streamline (after the guitars were stolen etc.) he was an easy one to toss overboard- could the stones have given him something to do? Was it more of the sort of cold hearted behavior Mick and Keith have relied on before to get things done? Maybe. But the bottom line was, he was unceremoniously shown the door and personally, i do not think he ever recovered - one sad part in the book, i found, was Gram explaining to someone why Keith was not producing him, after all the talk of such a thing happening - making excuses for how busy Keith was - again, if they were truly musical soul mates, i think things would have been different (and once more, there are some GP tunes I love, despite the thin voice, etc- I just think his reinvention as a "genius" is misguided and as the thread kicked off, I think he was more obsessed with Mick than Keith - I think he truly idolized Jagger and tried to emulate him.

It does not seem like many here have read the book - my hunch is, if more people did, this discussion might turn a bit differently. I went and looked that video up - after reading about it in there - and how painful it was for the other band members to watch it go down like it did.

And to your point, yes, he certainly had a ton of charisma -



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2012-04-01 00:06 by hbwriter.

Which video is that Chris?

I'm mobile right now so can't look it up- but it is mentioned at the head of this thread

here ya go

Again, I really like that video. I just see it as a charming relic of its time and the first time I saw it, 20 years ago, I didn't think, "wow, he's totally obsessed with Jagger here". May have thought, "wow, he's really camping it up", but, so what? Who cares?

HB, as I said earlier in this relentless thread, I could care less whether anyone likes or dislikes Parsons' music, I know how I feel about it. And, I could certainly care less about any bickering on here between you and anyone else-that's just....weird. But, you really do seem to be trying to, I dunno, pick at a scab here, for want of a better way to put it. And despite your protestations that you're just interested in healthy debate, you don't actually respond to any of the so-called healthy debate, you just respond to people who agree with you or people who vehemently disagree.

I told myself I wouldn't post on this again, but to reiterate: it seems like it's a personal thing for you. I haven't read the bio in question but I've read the Ben Fong-Torres book, the Sid Griffin book and the Polly Parsons co-write and I get it: flawed human being, probably not much fun to be in a band with. But, why would that stop me loving the man's voice or his music? And your constant dismissal of Gram's music as tepid, weak, bland , whatever else you've called it, is I think what maybe annoys some people, like you're trying to provoke, and not in a fun way. The argument you keep pressing is that people who do claim to like it are simply in thrall to the legend, to the mystique, and can't think for themselves. That's what I take from it, anyway, and I find that kind of an insult to my intelligence.

---------------------



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-04-01 03:25 by 71Tele.

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stonesrule
Naturalust, you had some interesting posts here for a time but you seem to have changed.

HBwriter has made a lot of friends here in the past three or four years.

When you insult him for many of us,it comes as a shock to hear from someone whose mantra is Peace.

Aren't we all past the jealousy stage?

Nicely put stonesrule,and very true....

"No dope smoking no beer sold after 12 o'clock"

hb threw up a provocative hyposthesis (that, based on a video, Gram had some kind of Jagger obsession) he shouldn't be surprised by passionate responses from those that didn't agree. There are plenty of opinions when it comes to Gram Parsons and the only thing I can't understand is why some people don't want to acknowledge that one individual - Gram in this case - cannot contain both positive and negative aspects, the same as members of a certain rock 'n' roll group we all enjoy. In my case, I both enjoy a lot of Gram's music and dislike a lot of the mythology about him, so where does that put me in the Great Gram Debate?

As for Naturalust, if I may make a friendly observation: The "peace" sign-off has gotten tired. It is particularly odd at the end of contentious posts. What is it, 1969? How about signing off with something else for a while, like "cantelope", or "Schenectady", so we could have a bit of a break?

Cheers.

(Edited for crappy typing).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-04-01 08:02 by 71Tele.

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ROPENI

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stonesrule
Naturalust, you had some interesting posts here for a time but you seem to have changed.

HBwriter has made a lot of friends here in the past three or four years.

When you insult him for many of us,it comes as a shock to hear from someone whose mantra is Peace.

Aren't we all past the jealousy stage?

Nicely put stonesrule,and very true....

Reading this... it seems like this is being made out to be one sided, with only Naturalust doing the insulting, and that is not the case. As hb has shown, hb is plenty guilty of lashing out and making insults too, just because he does not add the peace, does not make that ok.

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andrewm
Again, I really like that video. I just see it as a charming relic of its time and the first time I saw it, 20 years ago, I didn't think, "wow, he's totally obsessed with Jagger here". May have thought, "wow, he's really camping it up", but, so what? Who cares?

HB, as I said earlier in this relentless thread, I could care less whether anyone likes or dislikes Parsons' music, I know how I feel about it. And, I could certainly care less about any bickering on here between you and anyone else-that's just....weird. But, you really do seem to be trying to, I dunno, pick at a scab here, for want of a better way to put it. And despite your protestations that you're just interested in healthy debate, you don't actually respond to any of the so-called healthy debate, you just respond to people who agree with you or people who vehemently disagree.

I told myself I wouldn't post on this again, but to reiterate: it seems like it's a personal thing for you. I haven't read the bio in question but I've read the Ben Fong-Torres book, the Sid Griffin book and the Polly Parsons co-write and I get it: flawed human being, probably not much fun to be in a band with. But, why would that stop me loving the man's voice or his music? And your constant dismissal of Gram's music as tepid, weak, bland , whatever else you've called it, is I think what maybe annoys some people, like you're trying to provoke, and not in a fun way. The argument you keep pressing is that people who do claim to like it are simply in thrall to the legend, to the mystique, and can't think for themselves. That's what I take from it, anyway, and I find that kind of an insult to my intelligence.

Awesome post... pefectly mannered and well balanced.

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Max'sKansasCity

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ROPENI

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stonesrule
Naturalust, you had some interesting posts here for a time but you seem to have changed.

HBwriter has made a lot of friends here in the past three or four years.

When you insult him for many of us,it comes as a shock to hear from someone whose mantra is Peace.

Aren't we all past the jealousy stage?

Nicely put stonesrule,and very true....

Reading this... it seems like this is being made out to be one sided, with only Naturalust doing the insulting, and that is not the case. As hb has shown, hb is plenty guilty of lashing out and making insults too, just because he does not add the peace, does not make that ok.

You know Max,in this case imo Naturalust has gotten himself in a jam by his egotistical claims,such
"Most of my Rock Star friends are foolish and obnoxious Gram groupies too so tread lightly"
also ""I finally realize it takes a musician to see the true value of another musician" Cm on,l am not a musician but l think l know what l think is good or bad,that doesn't mean that my taste is better,is just a personal thing.
And the winner of them all for pure Ego:
"btw: I've got more Rock Star friends on my speed dial than you have ever interviewed by using whatever means you do to gain access"
l know hbwriter,and l have never seen that kind of egotistical,attitude,or that he thinks that he is better than us who are not writers..But that s just my opinion...And yes l agree with you we could disagree with each others opinion without insults..

"No dope smoking no beer sold after 12 o'clock"

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ROPENI

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Max'sKansasCity

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ROPENI

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stonesrule
Naturalust, you had some interesting posts here for a time but you seem to have changed.

HBwriter has made a lot of friends here in the past three or four years.

When you insult him for many of us,it comes as a shock to hear from someone whose mantra is Peace.

Aren't we all past the jealousy stage?

Nicely put stonesrule,and very true....

Reading this... it seems like this is being made out to be one sided, with only Naturalust doing the insulting, and that is not the case. As hb has shown, hb is plenty guilty of lashing out and making insults too, just because he does not add the peace, does not make that ok.

You know Max,in this case imo Naturalust has gotten himself in a jam by his egotistical claims,such
"Most of my Rock Star friends are foolish and obnoxious Gram groupies too so tread lightly"
also ""I finally realize it takes a musician to see the true value of another musician" Cm on,l am not a musician but l think l know what l think is good or bad,that doesn't mean that my taste is better,is just a personal thing.
And the winner of them all for pure Ego:
"btw: I've got more Rock Star friends on my speed dial than you have ever interviewed by using whatever means you do to gain access"
l know hbwriter,and l have never seen that kind of egotistical,attitude,or that he thinks that he is better than us who are not writers..But thats just my opinion...And yes l agree with you we could disagree with each others opinion without insults..

If I could email you a beer, I would...
I wish they would hurry up and invent that.

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Max'sKansasCity

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ROPENI

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Max'sKansasCity

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ROPENI

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stonesrule
Naturalust, you had some interesting posts here for a time but you seem to have changed.

HBwriter has made a lot of friends here in the past three or four years.

When you insult him for many of us,it comes as a shock to hear from someone whose mantra is Peace.

Aren't we all past the jealousy stage?

Nicely put stonesrule,and very true....

Reading this... it seems like this is being made out to be one sided, with only Naturalust doing the insulting, and that is not the case. As hb has shown, hb is plenty guilty of lashing out and making insults too, just because he does not add the peace, does not make that ok.

You know Max,in this case imo Naturalust has gotten himself in a jam by his egotistical claims,such
"Most of my Rock Star friends are foolish and obnoxious Gram groupies too so tread lightly"
also ""I finally realize it takes a musician to see the true value of another musician" Cm on,l am not a musician but l think l know what l think is good or bad,that doesn't mean that my taste is better,is just a personal thing.
And the winner of them all for pure Ego:
"btw: I've got more Rock Star friends on my speed dial than you have ever interviewed by using whatever means you do to gain access"
l know hbwriter,and l have never seen that kind of egotistical,attitude,or that he thinks that he is better than us who are not writers..But thats just my opinion...And yes l agree with you we could disagree with each others opinion without insults..

If I could email you a beer, I would...
I wish they would hurry up and invent that.

Well next time l am in New York,you will buy me one

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ROPENI

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Max'sKansasCity

If I could email you a beer, I would...
I wish they would hurry up and invent that.

Well next time l am in New York,you will buy me one

....OR FIVE!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-04-01 03:47 by Max'sKansasCity.

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Max'sKansasCity

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ROPENI

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Max'sKansasCity

If I could email you a beer, I would...
I wish they would hurry up and invent that.

Well next time l am in New York,you will buy me one

....OR FIVE!!

As someone else used to say here "Its a done deal"

"No dope smoking no beer sold after 12 o'clock"

If I could email you a beer, I would...
I wish they would hurry up and invent that.[/quote]

Haha,, the best post in this entire thread.

yaaaaa Beers all around!!! GAME ON!!!!!

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71Tele
hb threw up a provacative hyposthesis (that, based on a video, Gram had some kind of Jagger obsession) he shouldn't be surprised by passionate responses from those that didn't agree. There are plenty of opinions when it comes to Gram Parsons and the only thing I can't understand is why some people don't want to acknowledge that one individual - Gram in this case - cannot contain both positive and negative aspects, the same as members of a certain rock 'n' roll group we all enjoy. In my case, I both enjoy a lot of Gram's music and dislike a lot of the mythology about him, so where does that put me in the Great Gram Debate?

As for Naturalust, if I may make a friendly observation: The "peace" sign-off has gotten tired. It is particularly odd at the end of contentious posts. What is it, 1969? How about signing off with something else for a while, like "cantelope", or "Schenectady", so we could have a bit of a break?

Cheers.

I haven't posted a second time on this thread for a couple of reasons. I do very much appreciate this post by Tele and the one by Andrew---I agree that if the intent is to engage in discussion or debate the reactions are mostly 5-fiving people who are pretty much in lockstep and going after the most vitriolic. It does make for a high-spirited thread, but, as Tele says, there seems to be no attempt to even consider a middle ground. I took a bunch of time to write out my thoughts on the matter, but that wasn't even acknowledged; guess it wasn't off the rails or provocative enough.

As for "peace" I personally don't give a flying fantango how someone signs off -- and I'm pretty sure the perverse side of myself would might kick in and I would continue signing off with "peace" myself if people were getting bent out of shape about my saying that.

And naturalust, I'm not in the "don't go changin'" camp. You are and always have been a righteous dude. And I can appreciate that you react against that which you perceive as bullying and throwing one's weight around. The prob here, it seems, that a couple times you seem to have sloshed over from righteous to self-righteous.

But, in all, I don't care much---I sometimes pop onto this thread, but mostly not because it's become pretty unpleasant on the part of both main posters.

I have very positive associations with both of you, and this thread won't change that. But the tone and direction has unfortunately veered seriously south several times.

And, actually, this thread does seem to have been launched with the intent to stir things up and to be provocative, more than genuinely to catalyze thoughtful measured discussion--e.g., Gram Parsons "obsessed" with Mick. There's no crime in doing that, but the intent seems clear. And when someone is provocative in that way, some people will feel provoked, and will respond to being poked at. And there does appear to be sort of slightly subterranean barbs in the initial and subsequent post aimed at people who believe there's credence to Gram Parsons' having had influence on the music of the Rolling Stones (of some significance). My intelligence doesn't feel insulted, per se, but it's a little distasteful.

Incidentally, the rolodex/speed-dial portion of this thread was enormously amusing--I was having a sad day and ended up laughing so hard at that exchange. Also, hbwriter, your saying that when you typed "i Phone" it was transformed into #$%^&*(. When I first read it, I was like, Dude--what did you say!??! because it was so unlike you to swear so badly that it would be bleeped out!

As for the video....jeepers. It was the times. I wish I had more stake in being "right" on this one, but I don't, cuz if I did I would round up a bunch of videos from a range of bands/performers from that time period---Mick didn't start it with Gram Parsons aping him---it was a very campy prancey dancey swishy foppy time. To me, it just looked like Gram was having fun and being silly.

And finally, just because Mick Jagger doesn't rhapsodize about, or even much mention, Gram Parsons means very little. And when we get bent out of shape about Keith perpetuating his view....shouldn't we also be wondering why Mick doesn't claim his narrative or version of reality, rather than slamming Keith for asserting his?

-swiss



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-04-01 04:42 by swiss.

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Max'sKansasCity
yaaaaa Beers all around!!! GAME ON!!!!!

can i get in on this? please? PLEASE??? Ready to lay down the swords


i'm coming to NY in a few weeks

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hbwriter

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Max'sKansasCity
yaaaaa Beers all around!!! GAME ON!!!!!

can i get in on this? please? PLEASE??? Ready to lay down the swords


i'm coming to NY in a few weeks

When? I'm in NYC first week of May. Let me know if you're gonna be there then.

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hbwriter
as far as the subject at hand - has anyone else here read the excellent book, "20,000 Roads... the ballad of Gram Parsons"? It really is well written - and I think the writer, a passionate Parsons devotee, isolates some interesting things - at the Nellcote sesions, there's literally a day when Gram's "Rolling Stones World" comes crumbling down - the day he is banished from the castle. He was never asked to play on anything, despite the many guests that stumbled in to play, and Keith said something to the effect of, "Gram was too much of a gent to insert himself into the process" - a royal kiss off if there ever was one.

Then, back in London, the orders were that Gram and Gretchen were not to be allowed to stay in any Stones-related abodes - again, he was clearly being chopped off at the knees - he NEVER saw Keith again after that.

So I think the modern Keith quotes about Gram's influence are just some bits of historic meddling - designed to poke Jagger in the eye, and let Keith align himself with the ever-burgeoning "Church of Gram" that just DRIPS musical cred -TODAY, Keith can benefit from Gram - back then? Not so much.

Just an opinion.

I've read it, but I think Hot Burritos is a better read. It's done with Hillman's input. There's also a lot of post-Parsons history in it, so you gotta remember that.
Hillman's pretty hard on Gram and himself regarding the way the band turned out.
But it's a fascinating read. Even Chris Ethridge and Sneaky helped out with interviews. Most of it is about the original lineup. Strange that they don't have many fond memories about the first few years.

>>Why did GP's Stones world come crumbling down?

I cannot recall where I read it, but I think Anita was instrumental in this; the reason being that GP was consuming too much of their drugs.

ROCKMAN