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Come On
Music isn't something you write, it's something you play, and hopefully together with other musicians..

Well true and untrue. I think the creation of Jagger/Richards is totally dependent on the huge impact of Lennon/McCartney and the 60s image of pop being something more than attitude through covers written and produced by other people. Also the Beatles were compared to Mozart and Schubert and it is true that Beatles wrote melodies, harmonies, songs while the Stones often worked differently. There had to be a Jagger/Richards in the Stones for PR reasons alone.

Sympathy was written by Mick, it was a piece of music, rough, but still three chords+refrain and lyrics. And there's Brians acoustic blues lick on the E (E-A-G-E) which sort of proceeds Keiths awesome signature riff in 1969. Gimme Shelter is three chords and some words but thanks to Miller it became the greatest piece of rock n roll ever. Jagger and Richards wrote songs but I dont think they had finished pieces that they brought to the studio, not very often. Sympathy and Brown Sugar are two songs that were songs before the others in the band played on them. Ruby Tuesday seems to be a Richards/Jones/Jagger song. Paint it black comes to mind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-05 19:20 by Redhotcarpet.

Actually in One Plus One Mick constantly changes his vocal melody, which is part of song writing, right up till they are overdubbing the lead vocal. People are even suggesting he changes the phrasing and speed of delivery for certain parts at that point. That there is other people contributing to the song writing. The vocal melody is being changed both by Mick and Jimmy Miller etc.

listen to the difference between his vocal melody on some demos compared to released versions, Yesterday's Papers for example. If anyone other than Mick or Keith influenced those changes to the vocal melody then they too should have been included on the writing credit.

Jagger Richards is a business deal, given how they are shown to work as a band it is foolish to believe that they and they alone are responsible for the songs they are credited with writing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-05 16:21 by His Majesty.

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boston2006

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stones78

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SweetThing
Yes, that's correct. Somehow though we still have very many Jagger solo credits.

On which songs?

Perhaps I'm in error but aren't all songs on Stones LPs credited to Jagger / Richards that they wrote ? I cannot recall seeing anything other than that credit . Unless of course there was another writer credited along with them . EG "Everything Is Turning to Gold"

Of course on their solo LPs the writing credits are solo or with other writers

Yes,and there you will solo credits for Mick Jagger.

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His Majesty
Actually in One Plus One Mick constantly changes his vocal melody, which is part of song writing, right up till they are overdubbing the lead vocal. People are even suggesting he changes the phrasing and speed of delivery for certain parts at that point. That there is other people contributing to the song writing. The vocal melody is being changed both by Mick and Jimmy Miller etc.

listen to the difference between his vocal melody on some demos compared to released versions, Yesterday's Papers for example. If anyone other than Mick or Keith influenced those changes to the vocal melody then they too should have been included on the writing credit.

Jagger Richards is a business deal, given how they are shown to work as a band it is foolish to believe that they and they alone are responsible for the songs they are credited with writing.

I would call that producing, don't you agree?

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DandelionPowderman


I would call that producing, don't you agree?

A song is a melody and lyrics... if anyone makes suggestions verbally and/or via something they play which result in either being changed then they have contributed to the writing of that song.

When everybody really contributed we had Nanker Phelge. When someone else contributed further on AND requested to be credited, he was credited (Wood, Leavell; Taylor)
Sometimes maybe the one who didn´t shout out clearly that he deserved a credit, was indeed left out.
I would like to know exactly how the process to establish who got the credits was.
Charlie never ever got a credit and he never ever claimed for one and i bet he was actually in the studio playing much more time than Wyman or all the others ...

Here's the original LP label



Here is a remaster



I'm done with this .

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varilla
When everybody really contributed we had Nanker Phelge. When someone else contributed further on AND requested to be credited, he was credited (Wood, Leavell; Taylor)
Sometimes maybe the one who didn´t shout out clearly that he deserved a credit, was indeed left out.
I would like to know exactly how the process to establish who got the credits was.
Charlie never ever got a credit and he never ever claimed for one and i bet he was actually in the studio playing much more time than Wyman or all the others ...

Dont know what this has to do with anything. Bill did the riff to JJF, a riffbased song.

One should leave "I Don't Know Why" and "Sister Morphine" and "Prodigal Son" out of this topic all together.
These were all initially published by ABKCO.
In the case of "I Don't Know Why", Klein himself said that if he'd of known the publishing was owned by someone else....not him....he wouldn't have put it on the LP and released it as a single.
He had to write a check, and he wasn't counting on that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-06 04:39 by souldoggie.

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boston2006
Yes , the original LP release made no mention of Reverend Wilkins ,In fact LPs that do not mention Wilikins as the writer are a bit of a collectors item . Not highly valuable but a collectors item nonetheless .

And I'm sure I have at least a few copies...maybe the next series of posts for the rare vinyl thread?

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His Majesty
Actually in One Plus One Mick constantly changes his vocal melody, which is part of song writing, right up till they are overdubbing the lead vocal. People are even suggesting he changes the phrasing and speed of delivery for certain parts at that point. That there is other people contributing to the song writing. The vocal melody is being changed both by Mick and Jimmy Miller etc.

listen to the difference between his vocal melody on some demos compared to released versions, Yesterday's Papers for example. If anyone other than Mick or Keith influenced those changes to the vocal melody then they too should have been included on the writing credit.

Jagger Richards is a business deal, given how they are shown to work as a band it is foolish to believe that they and they alone are responsible for the songs they are credited with writing.

I think all the co-contributors should band together and refuse their services to Mick and Keith in the future, unless they are properly compensated.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman


I would call that producing, don't you agree?

A song is a melody and lyrics... if anyone makes suggestions verbally and/or via something they play which result in either being changed then they have contributed to the writing of that song.

I would call that producing, don't you agree?

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treaclefingers

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman


I would call that producing, don't you agree?

A song is a melody and lyrics... if anyone makes suggestions verbally and/or via something they play which result in either being changed then they have contributed to the writing of that song.

I would call that producing, don't you agree?

No, that's not producing.

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His Majesty

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treaclefingers

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman


I would call that producing, don't you agree?

A song is a melody and lyrics... if anyone makes suggestions verbally and/or via something they play which result in either being changed then they have contributed to the writing of that song.

I would call that producing, don't you agree?

No, that's not producing.

so...you don't agree.

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treaclefingers

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boston2006
Yes , the original LP release made no mention of Reverend Wilkins ,In fact LPs that do not mention Wilikins as the writer are a bit of a collectors item . Not highly valuable but a collectors item nonetheless .

And I'm sure I have at least a few copies...maybe the next series of posts for the rare vinyl thread?

Here you go !!

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman


I would call that producing, don't you agree?

A song is a melody and lyrics... if anyone makes suggestions verbally and/or via something they play which result in either being changed then they have contributed to the writing of that song.

I don't agree. A good example is from the documentary "Being Mick", where Mick is doing his vocals to Too Far Gone. Producer Marti Fredriksen is suggesting a different melody line for Mick to sing. He tries it, and accepts the change.

This is definitely producing, as I've experienced myself numerous times in the studio. No producer would even think of claiming credits for other than that, producing.

If the song is written, it's written. Minor adjustments during recording isn't necessarily songwriting - I would say that it's very rarely songwriting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-06 10:20 by DandelionPowderman.

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Redhotcarpet

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varilla
When everybody really contributed we had Nanker Phelge. When someone else contributed further on AND requested to be credited, he was credited (Wood, Leavell; Taylor)
Sometimes maybe the one who didn´t shout out clearly that he deserved a credit, was indeed left out.
I would like to know exactly how the process to establish who got the credits was.
Charlie never ever got a credit and he never ever claimed for one and i bet he was actually in the studio playing much more time than Wyman or all the others ...

Dont know what this has to do with anything. Bill did the riff to JJF, a riffbased song.

I don't think he said he did the riff. I think he meant the bassline that starts the song. That is of course very crucial to the song, too.

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DandelionPowderman
A good example is from the documentary "Being Mick", where Mick is doing his vocals to Too Far Gone. Producer Marti Fredriksen is suggesting a different melody line for Mick to sing. He tries it, and accepts the change.

I thought about this one as well. There is also a scene where Mick does some demo at home, with Matt Clifford around. Probably both Mick and Keith like to have someone around to bounce ideas off.

These persons will probably give advices (i like this better than that) or maybe suggest minor chord changes - but probably Keith and Mick do not view them as songwriters (originator of the song) but as mere catalyst that help them sort their own ideas.

Also Mick and Keith both seem to be more open to external credits on their solo stuff - and much more protective of the Jagger/Richards corpus.

Suggesting alternatives to a melody is arranging. Initiating and finalising a project is producing. Executive production is financial backing. Top line melodies and lyrics are the formal (legal) requirements for song writing credit. Of course even distinctive riffs or motifs have become musical property.

If Bill Wyman initiated the Jumping Jack Flash riff then he should have been credited if is distinctive enough to be significantly part of the tune. Of course it really is just contributing to the harmony and performance then one could say he contributed to that - as well as the rhythm - not enough to be credited for the song. As a bassist it may be just him doing his job on deciding how something should be played. I am a bass player and know that fairly well. Bass lines themselves do not a song make.

Perhaps Bill deserves credit (of some sort) but facts need to be validated before a final decision could be made.

One of the more difficult aspects of crediting is when a drummer initiates a riff and everyone has to figure out what to play to that...

<Executive production is financial backing.>

For movies, yes. Doesn't work that way in music, necessarily.

<Suggesting alternatives to a melody is arranging>

No, this is clearly one of the producer's tasks. His/her job is to make the music best possible, and making minor adjustments in melody lines etc. is something producers do all the time. They wouldn't dream of claiming arranging or writing credits.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-06 11:36 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman


No, this is clearly one of the producer's tasks. His/her job is to make the music best possible, and making minor adjustments in melody lines etc. is something producers do all the time. They wouldn't dream of claiming arranging or writing credits.

Actually a lot of producers do claim credit for such things now.

There is no difference between Keith changing one of Micks melodies and Jimmy Miller changing one of Micks melodies. They are both contributing to the song writing whether they ask for credit or not.

Yes it's what producers do, but it's also what anyone does when they think of an idea that they think will improve the song.

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DandelionPowderman

I don't think he said he did the riff. I think he meant the bassline that starts the song. That is of course very crucial to the song, too.

No, he said he wrote the riff.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman


No, this is clearly one of the producer's tasks. His/her job is to make the music best possible, and making minor adjustments in melody lines etc. is something producers do all the time. They wouldn't dream of claiming arranging or writing credits.

Actually a lot of producers do claim credit for such things now.

There is no difference between Keith changing one of Micks melodies and Jimmy Miller changing one of Micks melodies. They are both contributing to the song writing whether they ask for credit or not.

Yes it's what producers do, but it's also what anyone does when they think of an idea that they think will improve the song.

Well, let's agree on disagreeing

IMO, suggesting minor adjustments in melody lines, after hearing a written song, isn't song writing.

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DandelionPowderman

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman


No, this is clearly one of the producer's tasks. His/her job is to make the music best possible, and making minor adjustments in melody lines etc. is something producers do all the time. They wouldn't dream of claiming arranging or writing credits.

Actually a lot of producers do claim credit for such things now.

There is no difference between Keith changing one of Micks melodies and Jimmy Miller changing one of Micks melodies. They are both contributing to the song writing whether they ask for credit or not.

Yes it's what producers do, but it's also what anyone does when they think of an idea that they think will improve the song.

Well, let's agree on disagreeing

IMO, suggesting minor adjustments in melody lines, after hearing a written song, isn't song writing.

Ok, that means Mick and Keith shouldn't be credited together for a lot of the songs they are both credited with writing then.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman


No, this is clearly one of the producer's tasks. His/her job is to make the music best possible, and making minor adjustments in melody lines etc. is something producers do all the time. They wouldn't dream of claiming arranging or writing credits.

Actually a lot of producers do claim credit for such things now.

There is no difference between Keith changing one of Micks melodies and Jimmy Miller changing one of Micks melodies. They are both contributing to the song writing whether they ask for credit or not.

Yes it's what producers do, but it's also what anyone does when they think of an idea that they think will improve the song.

Well, let's agree on disagreeing

IMO, suggesting minor adjustments in melody lines, after hearing a written song, isn't song writing.

Ok, that means Mick and Keith shouldn't be credited together for a lot of the songs they are both credited with writing then.

If they didn't have a song writing partnership, yes

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DandelionPowderman

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman


No, this is clearly one of the producer's tasks. His/her job is to make the music best possible, and making minor adjustments in melody lines etc. is something producers do all the time. They wouldn't dream of claiming arranging or writing credits.

Actually a lot of producers do claim credit for such things now.

There is no difference between Keith changing one of Micks melodies and Jimmy Miller changing one of Micks melodies. They are both contributing to the song writing whether they ask for credit or not.

Yes it's what producers do, but it's also what anyone does when they think of an idea that they think will improve the song.

Well, let's agree on disagreeing

IMO, suggesting minor adjustments in melody lines, after hearing a written song, isn't song writing.

It's not very likely that these types of arrangements - claiming two persons in a band writes everything - would be possible today. Probably the "produced by the Glimmer Twins" was an early attempt at saying, we produce the songs, some songs were written by someone in the band likely Mick or Keith although he more often took half finished stuff and worked it out with the band or sidemen who happened to be there. Others were worked out of the whole band and or even based on an original idea by some band member or someone outside the band or the producer.

Thus if Cooder, Taylor, Jones, Hopkins, Wyman or Preston contributes with a major thing like a riff, chords or melody/part of a melody its still "produced by the Glimmer Twins". Ronnie was a star on his own so maybe they had to deal with him and trade credits, give "inspiration by" credits etc.

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DandelionPowderman


If they didn't have a song writing partnership, yes

Yes, a business agreement... one which doesn't recognise the contribution to the song writing of those who are not part of that business agreement.