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Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: May 21, 2016 10:24

Jimmy Page and Robert Plant to Appear at ‘Stairway to Heaven’ Plagiarism Trial
By Jeff Giles May 19, 2016 8:57 AM

Stairway to Taurus


Jimmy Page and Robert Plant have told the court they’ll appear in person during the upcoming trial being held to determine whether they plagiarized from Spirit founder Randy California when writing “Stairway to Heaven.”

Classic Rock Magazine reports that Page and Plant’s attendance was at the center of some brinkmanship between the attorneys representing either side, with the plaintiff’s lawyers claiming that the duo’s “refusal to specify if they will appear is causing havoc” and forcing them to “designate more deposition testimony that [the case] will need if they appear.”

“This uncertainty is extremely costly,” added the motion, “as Plaintiff is also having to edit hours of video deposition testimony.”

Page and Plant’s lawyers have assured the court that they will indeed be on hand during the trial — in fact, they say their attendance was never in doubt. “We have previously made it clear that Messrs Page and Plant will attend the trial,” reads their retort, “but with them coming from England we cannot guarantee the day they will arrive.” In response, lawyers for California’s estate have accused Page and Plant of having a “lack of common courtesy” and attempting to “dictate the court’s schedule.”

Once thought unlikely to appear at the trial, Page and Plant have already sat for filmed depositions in the case, which hinges on a corresponding chord progression between the Spirit song “Taurus” and the intro section of “Stairway to Heaven.” The latest barbs tossed between attorneys notwithstanding, it’s been rumored that the suit could be settled with a symbolic one-dollar payment — as well as a “Stairway” co-writing credit for California. But Page and Plant could owe as much as $14 million if the case is settled against them. The trial is set to begin June 14.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: June 6, 2016 12:57

"The unaccompanied solo from Heartbreaker is not original. The pull offs and behind the nut bends were copped right off an old fifties guitar instrumental by Johnny Guitar Watson on an l.p. called Loose Ends"
[forums.stevehoffman.tv]

When will the list end? grinning smiley

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: June 6, 2016 17:20

Quote
dcba
"The unaccompanied solo from Heartbreaker is not original. The pull offs and behind the nut bends were copped right off an old fifties guitar instrumental by Johnny Guitar Watson on an l.p. called Loose Ends"
[forums.stevehoffman.tv]

When will the list end? grinning smiley

smiling smiley

Did a little research on 'Loose Ends' (a various artists compilation) and the tune in question is Space Guitar - one of my all time favorites.
Never dawned on me that there are some similarities amidst the barrage of notes of this and Heartbreaker, but there it is.
I always heard fast Johnny Winter style leads, but in reality probably hundreds of other guitar players ripped of licks from Space guitar - a tour de force of guitar playing from 1954.

Johnny "Guitar" Watson - Space Guitar




_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: BluzDude ()
Date: June 6, 2016 17:29

So is Led Zeppelin going to sue Joe Bonamassa for the River sounding a little like WTLB?

....Oh wait,they didn't write that.....

[www.youtube.com]

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: ab ()
Date: June 6, 2016 17:34

Space Guitar isn't at all close to Heartbreaker. Some people just want to believe that Zeppelin stole everything they ever did. There are plenty of cases where they did, but Heartbreaker isn't one of them.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: June 6, 2016 17:48

I think the Jimmy Page/Space Guitar thievery claim was somewhat tongue in cheek, but there are indeed some similarities in the Heartbreaker solo.
Again, probably hundreds of guitar players have utilized licks from that tune. If it was an issue, it could be said that Keith Richards ripped off 90% of his guitar playing from Chuck Berry.

It's like saying Rembrandt used some of the same brush stroke techniques as Michelangelo - some truth perhaps but he made it completely his own.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: HonkeyTonkFlash ()
Date: June 9, 2016 23:31

Slightly off the topic, but for a limited time you can download a FREE copy of Led Zep II on Google Play! A nice gesture in today's greedy world...
[play.google.com]

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-09 23:32 by HonkeyTonkFlash.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: roller99 ()
Date: June 9, 2016 23:46

Quote
BluzDude
So is Led Zeppelin going to sue Joe Bonamassa for the River sounding a little like WTLB?

....Oh wait,they didn't write that.....

[www.youtube.com]

Yeah, why isn't that ever mentioned. Or the fact that the middle 8 in The Crunge sounds just like the middle 8 from James Brown's Get On Up (Like a sex machine)?

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: ab ()
Date: June 10, 2016 04:58

Stylistically similar, but then again The Crunge is a James Brown tribute. However, it's a bit of a stretch to say the two songs sound just the same.

Everyone pinches from everyone else. There's almost nothing in music that's wholly original. In his recent book, Elvis Costello goes on at length about how he took things from other people's songs to write his own.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: June 15, 2016 08:33


Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: TheGreek ()
Date: June 15, 2016 13:36

Seen on the news this morning the trial began and they played a clip of the song Taurus on NBC this morning .

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: hopkins ()
Date: June 16, 2016 07:15

CNNMoney (New York)
First published June 15, 2016: 8:09 PM ET

Led Zeppelin guitarist Jimmy Page told a court Wednesday that he didn't copy key notes from another band's song for the group's famous "Stairway to Heaven."
In fact, Page said he didn't hear the other song, "Taurus" by a group named Spirit, until two years ago.
Page, dressed in a dark three-piece suit, took the stand in a Los Angeles courtroom because he and Led Zeppelin frontman Robert Plant are accused of copyright infringement.
The allegation claims they copied key note patterns in the first two minutes of their hit from another song by the 1960s psychedelic band, Spirit. That song, "Taurus," is an instrumental ballad released four years prior to "Stairway to Heaven."
"Something like that would stick in my mind. It was totally alien to me," Page told the court.
The court session offered up a contrast in style: The plantiff's hard charging lawyer, Francis Malofiy, peppering a reserved and polite Page about the rocker's familiarity with Spirit's music.
Related: 'Stairway to Heaven' suit: What you need to know
Page smiled and said he "rather enjoyed Spirit," but did not recall ever hearing the group live. Earlier, Malofiy tried to establish through witness testimony that Spirit and Led Zeppelin played several U.S. concert gigs on the same bill, including large festivals.
The questioning of Page drew laughs several times, like when Malofiy asked him if he was a session musician. Page told the court he began playing guitar at age 12.
"Later on you had a gift of playing the guitar?" Malofiy asked.
Page, one of rock's premiere guitarists, broke into a wide smile and said, "Well, yeah." The gallery on both sides in the courtroom erupted in laughter.
Page testified that he first remembered hearing "Taurus" on the internet two years ago. He said his collection of more than 4,000 vinyl records contains five by Spirit.
Recognition and damages are being sought by the estate of musician/songwriter Randy Craig Wolfe, a Spirit band member who was known professionally as "Randy California." Wolfe died in 1997. His estate filed the lawsuit in 2014, the same year Led Zeppelin released a remastered version of "Stairway to Heaven."
Copyright cases have resulted in increasing scrutiny -- and damages -- within the music industry.
Condé Nast Portfolio estimated in 2008 that "Stairway to Heaven" had earned more than $562 million in publishing royalties and record sales since it's 1971 release.
Last year, Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams were ordered to pay the estate of singer Marvin Gaye $7.4 million after a jury found their song "Blurred Lines" had taken riffs from Gaye's classic "Got to Give It Up."
Testimony will resume Thursday with Page back on the stand. Plant is also expected to be called to the stand before the trial wraps early next week.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: tomcasagranda ()
Date: June 16, 2016 10:19

Everyone copies; it's what Harold Bloom defined as "The Anxiety of Influence".

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: jlowe ()
Date: June 16, 2016 10:33

How do they arrive at the $562 million figure? (record sales/publishing).
That should be contested for a start.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: HonkeyTonkFlash ()
Date: June 16, 2016 11:33

[www.rollingstone.com]

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: June 17, 2016 00:59



THE AUSTRALIAN -- 17 June 2016



ROCKMAN

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: onestep ()
Date: June 17, 2016 15:05

If this lawsuit garners ONE DIME against Led Zeppelin, that would be the crime.
Anyone with ears can hear that the acoustic version of these two songs are different enough. The Spirit family is simply trying to ride on Page/PLant legacy, and soil it.

[www.theguardian.com]

Play the video at the beginning of the article.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-17 15:06 by onestep.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: June 17, 2016 15:19

"Soil it?"

Page has soiled it himself. And if you want to adopt a hippie stance à la Randy California call this trial a "karmic boomerang".

"We'll crush you not because we're right but because we're richer and bigger than you" has been Page and Grant's motto for years. I'm glad this Mafia policy is coming to an end.

It's okay to be ruthless and eager to make it (the Stones were) but ripping off a song from the band who let you open their early 1969 shows and who "gave" you the opportunity to crack the US market is beyond tacky.

Page was a 1980's yuppie dressed in a hippie's 1960's clothes. Now it's payback time.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-17 15:26 by dcba.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: onestep ()
Date: June 17, 2016 15:58

Maybe my language was a tad strong....as we all know there are traditional arrangements....Motherless Children...and lots of old blues numbers..that are lifted. Out of the millions of song structures, I am sure there could be the same case made over and over that is being made about Stairway to Heaven.

We wouldn't be talking about the similarities of the two songs, if it wasn't Stairway to Heaven...and it's a real litigious society....with the obvious similarities, there are differences enough to separate the two songs..even if Jimmy Page got a subconscious idea for the structure from hearing the original..I feel, THAT being said, not everyone agrees obviously.

In the end it really doesn't matter to me either way...it's like the outcome of a football game, I am rooting for Zeppelin...but I am not laying a wager on the game.

Should Mr. Wolfe's estate get a credit as part of the composition after all these years and were the similarities of the two songs an intentional theft by Jimmy Page? If it is decided this is the case, how will damages be awarded...and which family member of Mr. Wolfe was damaged the most, AND was the band Spirit hurt...will the two factions ever talk to each other or have dinner together, will holiday cards be exchanged, will there ever be a good nights sleep or forgiveness in this hard world?

If the suit was brought at the release of the song, there might be a general all around better feeling from me about the situation...but who really cares what I think...it's a money issue isn't it....

Has Anybody Seen My Baby? I guess that remains to be seen..it's been said that Jagger is very astute when it comes to business matters, eh?

[www.youtube.com]

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: June 17, 2016 18:58

Quote
onestep
If this lawsuit garners ONE DIME against Led Zeppelin, that would be the crime.
Anyone with ears can hear that the acoustic version of these two songs are different enough. The Spirit family is simply trying to ride on Page/PLant legacy, and soil it.

[www.theguardian.com]

Play the video at the beginning of the article.

I had thought there was a slight similarity when listening to the studio recordings, but this acoustic comparison shows the major differences.
When hearing the Taurus tune as played in video, I can't help but think of Chim Chim Che-ree (Mary Poppins) which Page earlier cited as a possible influence haha.
When I hear the acoustic Stairway demonstration, I only think of Stairway to Heaven.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: June 17, 2016 20:21

Quote
onestep
If this lawsuit garners ONE DIME against Led Zeppelin, that would be the crime.
Anyone with ears can hear that the acoustic version of these two songs are different enough. The Spirit family is simply trying to ride on Page/PLant legacy, and soil it.

[www.theguardian.com]

Play the video at the beginning of the article.

That guy plays Stairway wrong.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: June 17, 2016 20:36

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
onestep
If this lawsuit garners ONE DIME against Led Zeppelin, that would be the crime.
Anyone with ears can hear that the acoustic version of these two songs are different enough. The Spirit family is simply trying to ride on Page/PLant legacy, and soil it.

[www.theguardian.com]

Play the video at the beginning of the article.

That guy plays Stairway wrong.

That could be grounds for a mistrial -incompetent witness giving false testimony. smiling smiley

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: marianna ()
Date: June 18, 2016 00:04

Quote
dcba
"Soil it?"

Page has soiled it himself. And if you want to adopt a hippie stance à la Randy California call this trial a "karmic boomerang".

"We'll crush you not because we're right but because we're richer and bigger than you" has been Page and Grant's motto for years. I'm glad this Mafia policy is coming to an end.

It's okay to be ruthless and eager to make it (the Stones were) but ripping off a song from the band who let you open their early 1969 shows and who "gave" you the opportunity to crack the US market is beyond tacky.

Page was a 1980's yuppie dressed in a hippie's 1960's clothes. Now it's payback time.

Spirit let Zep open for their early 1969 shows? Most shows back then had multiple bands on the bill, not just two, and the playing order of bands was determined by the promoter, I would think (but maybe not). I doubt Page was at the side of the stage watching and taking notes, though it could be possible he subliminally picked up melodies that one song by hearing it played over and over, and just didn't realize it. I think Led Zep was well on their way to being established by 1969, so it's not like Spirit was doing them some kind of favor. Spirit themselves were not that big outside the concert circuit, and Led Zep passed them by in terms of success before "Stairway" was put on record.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: Aquamarine ()
Date: June 18, 2016 00:53

Quote
dcba


It's okay to be ruthless and eager to make it (the Stones were) but ripping off a song from the band who let you open their early 1969 shows and who "gave" you the opportunity to crack the US market is beyond tacky.

I think you'll find that's not how it went down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_Zeppelin_North_American_Tour_1968%E2%80%931969

(I know it's Wikipedia, but it's basically accurate.)

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: RollingFreak ()
Date: June 18, 2016 01:40

I've said it over and over again (not that anyone is disagreeing, but just since the trial is still going on):

Randy California acknowledged the connection. And that was ALL. He was alive and brought up the topic, but obviously felt no need to go further or he would have. The song was the song before Randy died and he was aware of the similarities.

Had it not been for that, I'd probably be more on Spirit's side. Did Jimmy steal it? Who knows, but he doesn't have a good track record so maybe. But in the end, Randy himself had the time to get this dealt with. He chose not to. Either because it wasn't the same or he just didn't care. But either way, its ridiculous to be brought up now. Page and Zep at this point SHOULD stand up for it being original. Its not like they owe the family anything.

EDIT: From the man himself. This is all he says:

In 1996, in the liner notes for the reissue of Spirit's first album, California stated "people always ask me why 'Stairway to Heaven' sounds exactly like 'Taurus,' which was released two years earlier. I know Led Zeppelin also played 'Fresh Garbage' in their live set. They opened up for us on their first American tour".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-18 01:51 by RollingFreak.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: BroomWagon ()
Date: June 18, 2016 02:25

Sounds like all that glitters are not gold records.

It would be the same great Zeppelin music whether they give credit or not. The Stones early albums always gave credit on their covers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-18 02:27 by BroomWagon.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: Rocky Dijon ()
Date: June 18, 2016 03:58

It's all minor to me. I'm hoping Page comes out unscathed. It would be like Willie Nile coming out of the woodwork and suing the Stones over "She's So Cold." After all, he was showcased for a possible signing to Rolling Stones Records so they likely heard his song before writing theirs. Likewise, Jay Ferguson, another member of Spirit had "Thunder Island" that has the riff to "Start Me Up" three years before the Stones released their track. The similarities are there, but they're not the same songs. Should he sue after all these years? Isn't it likely if the Spirit legal team wins one victory?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-18 04:12 by Rocky Dijon.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: June 18, 2016 04:10

Quote
RollingFreak
I've said it over and over again (not that anyone is disagreeing, but just since the trial is still going on):

Randy California acknowledged the connection. And that was ALL. He was alive and brought up the topic, but obviously felt no need to go further or he would have. The song was the song before Randy died and he was aware of the similarities.

Had it not been for that, I'd probably be more on Spirit's side. Did Jimmy steal it? Who knows, but he doesn't have a good track record so maybe. But in the end, Randy himself had the time to get this dealt with. He chose not to. Either because it wasn't the same or he just didn't care. But either way, its ridiculous to be brought up now. Page and Zep at this point SHOULD stand up for it being original. Its not like they owe the family anything.

EDIT: From the man himself. This is all he says:

In 1996, in the liner notes for the reissue of Spirit's first album, California stated "people always ask me why 'Stairway to Heaven' sounds exactly like 'Taurus,' which was released two years earlier. I know Led Zeppelin also played 'Fresh Garbage' in their live set. They opened up for us on their first American tour".

From the Guardian link posted above:

Wolfe (California), speaking shortly before his death, said in magazine interview, quoted in the lawsuit, that it was a rip-off.
“And the guys made millions of bucks on it and never said ‘thank you,’ never said, ‘can we pay you some money for it?’ It’s kind of a sore point with me.”


I don't know what magazine or how accurate that quote is, but evidently he thought it was the same and cared enough to talk about being bothered about the similarities.
Not enough to file a lawsuit though...

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: BluzDude ()
Date: June 18, 2016 04:16

Why would I thank someone if I felt a song was my own?

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism
Posted by: hopkins ()
Date: June 18, 2016 04:28

Quote
Aquamarine
Quote
dcba


It's okay to be ruthless and eager to make it (the Stones were) but ripping off a song from the band who let you open their early 1969 shows and who "gave" you the opportunity to crack the US market is beyond tacky.

I think you'll find that's not how it went down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_Zeppelin_North_American_Tour_1968%E2%80%931969

(I know it's Wikipedia, but it's basically accurate.)

I was at this show. (link below) WOW. By the early to mid 70's they were nowhere this hot. Wiki does not mention this show in their list. They were not a 'warm-up' act very much longer after this. The Who were the headliners but it took forever for the stunned and erupting crowd to settle even a tad; Pete came onstage applauding and shouted "Led Zeppelin!!" into the mike before one note of their set could be played. It was like a baptism or something. The Who were firing on all cylinders too, so it was probably the best, or among the very best of concert bills I've ever encountered. I guess Zep had secretly "appropriated" copyrights on some of their set list even way back promoting their first LP.
[www.ledzeppelin.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-18 04:59 by hopkins.

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