Tell Me :
Talk
I'm well aware. I HATE Roman numerals.
For the XIVXXXXIIIIth time - deal with it!
I don't hear an Aminor at all. Try it, it gives a totally different feel.
Just the typical blues structure major chords minor feel
C
C
You're right, we don't actually hear the A minor chord. However, it's definitely there. If Keith played more strings on that first chord, and chose not to play minor, it would have sounded bizarrely
Do you really hear it?
Las night I strummed Fate's chord progression on an acoustic, tried both the A minor and major: I definitely hear a major.
Then all the melodic fills are based on minor scales, so the usual blues!
C
If the b-string (C#) rings in the first chord, the riff is dead.
Try to play a major pentatonic solo in A over the first two chords, and perhaps you'll see what I mean.
However, we never actually hear whether he plays major or minor, because the g-string is the last string in his chord that rings (the root note).
Jagger's vocal line has a C in it, so it must be A min, theoretically. Liddas has point though: If you play it in standard tuning and use a A Maj, it sounds ok. In open G this doesn't work. Funny.
The b-string (C#) won't work in either standard or open G-tuning. It will sound amaterurish right away.
It's an effective way of simplifying sometimes. By «over-accenting» the minor chord, some songs may getting a different feel as well. So, he keeps it simple.
Good examples, although I can understand why he won't play a full A-chord on T+A.
Give it a try in standard tuning. At least I like it.
Exactly. And if he had strummed a major A chord before that Csus/C-chord change (making the C# audible), it would have altered the whole motif.
Had he strummed an A minor chord change, the riff would have more or less remained the same, because of the Csus/C change (Am and C harmonises).
That was my point. Sorry for a confusing explanation
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-01 11:03 by DandelionPowderman.
So you're not gearing up for the MMXVII European tour? Fake fan!
It's also partly a function of the fingering in open G.
Asside from the typical major/minor vagueness that typifies Blues & Rock music, full voicings of minor chords don't lend themselves to easy fingerings where the rythmic impact is most vital to the riff.
So an ambiguous 2 note "power chord" will be the natural option much of the time.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-01 12:03 by Spud.
You can add the Em-chord (same formation) to the mix (BTMMR among others).
I thought for many years that Struggle was in open G minor, but it is indeed in standard tuning. The E-formation is a pinky-free standard Em from the 7th fret (adding to the suspending chord with his pinky on the 11th fret, I believe).
My bad. He's playing it in open G, of course.
This was actually an old discussion where I remembered the outcome wrongly
Nice that you bring this up. If you play the famous Hendrix "Purple Haze" E7#9 chord, transposed to A7#9, then you have both the C and C# involved, i. It works nice in HoF, in standard tuning of course, a bit Jazzy but also dangerous. As far as I know the Stones never used this most famous rock chord, btw.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-01 17:51 by TheflyingDutchman.
The Em of Struggle: open G - barre on the 9th fret with my middle finger + the G (2nd string 8th fret) with my index. Add sus, the A (2nd string 10th fret) with my ring finger. Sounds right.
C
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: January 31, 2017 06:59
Quote
RossQuote
GasLightStreetQuote
DandelionPowderman
You knew there would come I-IV chords (F/C) that would stabilise the rhythm the first time you heard it?
AUGH! First fourth! 1/4!
Maybe I'm missing something, but you seem to be ignorant of the fact that roman numerals are the most common way chords are identified when referring to chord or harmonic progressions.
I'm well aware. I HATE Roman numerals.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 31, 2017 10:07
Quote
GasLightStreetQuote
RossQuote
GasLightStreetQuote
DandelionPowderman
You knew there would come I-IV chords (F/C) that would stabilise the rhythm the first time you heard it?
AUGH! First fourth! 1/4!
Maybe I'm missing something, but you seem to be ignorant of the fact that roman numerals are the most common way chords are identified when referring to chord or harmonic progressions.
I'm well aware. I HATE Roman numerals.
For the XIVXXXXIIIIth time - deal with it!
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: January 31, 2017 10:10
SMU is the oddest intro of them all. The way the snare fits in.
HTW I always thought is trying to be "correct'; it just takes a few bars and body language to will it into the beat.
I never thought of HOF as off in any way. But it's ttrue: it does sound like they been going for a while. Like "Slave".
HTW I always thought is trying to be "correct'; it just takes a few bars and body language to will it into the beat.
I never thought of HOF as off in any way. But it's ttrue: it does sound like they been going for a while. Like "Slave".
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: January 31, 2017 11:22
Quote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
RossQuote
GasLightStreetQuote
DandelionPowderman
You knew there would come I-IV chords (F/C) that would stabilise the rhythm the first time you heard it?
AUGH! First fourth! 1/4!
Maybe I'm missing something, but you seem to be ignorant of the fact that roman numerals are the most common way chords are identified when referring to chord or harmonic progressions.
I think both posters are a bit off the rails here. The intro / verse goes A(min)-G- Csus4-C. Keith (open G) leaves the C or C# (third) out of the A chord, so to keep it simple they write A on Tab sites. A matter of taste when it comes to the A chord. Both minor and major are possible.
So it is VI(min) - V-Isus4-I. When you play it in standard tuning you could also play Amaj -G -F-C to make it cozy.
GLS prob talking about the rhythm.
I don't hear an Aminor at all. Try it, it gives a totally different feel.
Just the typical blues structure major chords minor feel
C
C
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 31, 2017 11:29
Quote
liddasQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
RossQuote
GasLightStreetQuote
DandelionPowderman
You knew there would come I-IV chords (F/C) that would stabilise the rhythm the first time you heard it?
AUGH! First fourth! 1/4!
Maybe I'm missing something, but you seem to be ignorant of the fact that roman numerals are the most common way chords are identified when referring to chord or harmonic progressions.
I think both posters are a bit off the rails here. The intro / verse goes A(min)-G- Csus4-C. Keith (open G) leaves the C or C# (third) out of the A chord, so to keep it simple they write A on Tab sites. A matter of taste when it comes to the A chord. Both minor and major are possible.
So it is VI(min) - V-Isus4-I. When you play it in standard tuning you could also play Amaj -G -F-C to make it cozy.
GLS prob talking about the rhythm.
I don't hear an Aminor at all. Try it, it gives a totally different feel.
Just the typical blues structure major chords minor feel
C
C
You're right, we don't actually hear the A minor chord. However, it's definitely there. If Keith played more strings on that first chord, and chose not to play minor, it would have sounded bizarrely
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: January 31, 2017 12:02
Quote
DandelionPowderman
You're right, we don't actually hear the A minor chord. However, it's definitely there. If Keith played more strings on that first chord, and chose not to play minor, it would have sounded bizarrely
Do you really hear it?
Las night I strummed Fate's chord progression on an acoustic, tried both the A minor and major: I definitely hear a major.
Then all the melodic fills are based on minor scales, so the usual blues!
C
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 31, 2017 12:17
Quote
liddasQuote
DandelionPowderman
You're right, we don't actually hear the A minor chord. However, it's definitely there. If Keith played more strings on that first chord, and chose not to play minor, it would have sounded bizarrely
Do you really hear it?
Las night I strummed Fate's chord progression on an acoustic, tried both the A minor and major: I definitely hear a major.
Then all the melodic fills are based on minor scales, so the usual blues!
C
If the b-string (C#) rings in the first chord, the riff is dead.
Try to play a major pentatonic solo in A over the first two chords, and perhaps you'll see what I mean.
However, we never actually hear whether he plays major or minor, because the g-string is the last string in his chord that rings (the root note).
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: January 31, 2017 12:58
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
liddasQuote
DandelionPowderman
You're right, we don't actually hear the A minor chord. However, it's definitely there. If Keith played more strings on that first chord, and chose not to play minor, it would have sounded bizarrely
Do you really hear it?
Las night I strummed Fate's chord progression on an acoustic, tried both the A minor and major: I definitely hear a major.
Then all the melodic fills are based on minor scales, so the usual blues!
C
If the b-string (C#) rings in the first chord, the riff is dead.
Try to play a major pentatonic solo in A over the first two chords, and perhaps you'll see what I mean.
However, we never actually hear whether he plays major or minor, because the g-string is the last string in his chord that rings (the root note).
Jagger's vocal line has a C in it, so it must be A min, theoretically. Liddas has point though: If you play it in standard tuning and use a A Maj, it sounds ok. In open G this doesn't work. Funny.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 31, 2017 13:03
Quote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
liddasQuote
DandelionPowderman
You're right, we don't actually hear the A minor chord. However, it's definitely there. If Keith played more strings on that first chord, and chose not to play minor, it would have sounded bizarrely
Do you really hear it?
Las night I strummed Fate's chord progression on an acoustic, tried both the A minor and major: I definitely hear a major.
Then all the melodic fills are based on minor scales, so the usual blues!
C
If the b-string (C#) rings in the first chord, the riff is dead.
Try to play a major pentatonic solo in A over the first two chords, and perhaps you'll see what I mean.
However, we never actually hear whether he plays major or minor, because the g-string is the last string in his chord that rings (the root note).
Jagger's vocal line has a C in it, so it must be A min, theoretically. Liddas has point though: If you play it in standard tuning and use a A Maj, it sounds ok. In open G this doesn't work. Funny.
The b-string (C#) won't work in either standard or open G-tuning. It will sound amaterurish right away.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
MonkeyMan2000
()
Date: January 31, 2017 13:03
Keith sometimes uses that A chord in a weird way. On How I Wish it should be A Minor too. And of course on Little T&A. But Little T&A sounds bad when you play an A Minor chord. I guess Keith doesn't worry about it too much and just plays what sounds right; you can't go wrong with power chords ><
<Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 31, 2017 13:15
Quote
MonkeyMan2000
Keith sometimes uses that A chord in a weird way. On How I Wish it should be A Minor too. And of course on Little T&A. But Little T&A sounds bad when you play an A Minor chord. I guess Keith doesn't worry about it too much and just plays what sounds right; you can't go wrong with power chords >
It's an effective way of simplifying sometimes. By «over-accenting» the minor chord, some songs may getting a different feel as well. So, he keeps it simple.
Good examples, although I can understand why he won't play a full A-chord on T+A.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: January 31, 2017 13:41
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
liddasQuote
DandelionPowderman
You're right, we don't actually hear the A minor chord. However, it's definitely there. If Keith played more strings on that first chord, and chose not to play minor, it would have sounded bizarrely
Do you really hear it?
Las night I strummed Fate's chord progression on an acoustic, tried both the A minor and major: I definitely hear a major.
Then all the melodic fills are based on minor scales, so the usual blues!
C
If the b-string (C#) rings in the first chord, the riff is dead.
Try to play a major pentatonic solo in A over the first two chords, and perhaps you'll see what I mean.
However, we never actually hear whether he plays major or minor, because the g-string is the last string in his chord that rings (the root note).
Jagger's vocal line has a C in it, so it must be A min, theoretically. Liddas has point though: If you play it in standard tuning and use a A Maj, it sounds ok. In open G this doesn't work. Funny.
The b-string (C#) won't work in either standard or open G-tuning. It will sound amaterurish right away.
Give it a try in standard tuning. At least I like it.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: February 1, 2017 10:54
keith's opening is a power chord with only A and E, so no C or C#, so neither major or minor, but the tonality becomes Aminor / C pentatonic major when they hit the Csus4 / C chords, which resolve in C, which makes the A a minor.
Mathijs
Mathijs
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 1, 2017 11:02
Quote
Mathijs
keith's opening is a power chord with only A and E, so no C or C#, so neither major or minor, but the tonality becomes Aminor / C pentatonic major when they hit the Csus4 / C chords, which resolve in C, which makes the A a minor.
Mathijs
Exactly. And if he had strummed a major A chord before that Csus/C-chord change (making the C# audible), it would have altered the whole motif.
Had he strummed an A minor chord change, the riff would have more or less remained the same, because of the Csus/C change (Am and C harmonises).
That was my point. Sorry for a confusing explanation
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-01 11:03 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: February 1, 2017 11:05
To me it has always been a no-brainer that it is A -Minor. e.g. when it playing it on piano, one sees it is one of the simplest fingering sequences there is. I have at times wondered if this song was written on piano for that reason.
I also think that the first time it hits the A chord coming out of the bridge - after the "I had to save a life" parts, when he goes "I watched him die" part - it seems that part cries more for the minor than the major.
That said Liddas makes a good point re. the major. I played the song using the major, and it adds a twist of interest.
I also think that the first time it hits the A chord coming out of the bridge - after the "I had to save a life" parts, when he goes "I watched him die" part - it seems that part cries more for the minor than the major.
That said Liddas makes a good point re. the major. I played the song using the major, and it adds a twist of interest.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: February 1, 2017 11:17
One of the first open gees i learned to play. This and Happy.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 1, 2017 11:23
Anyone who has tried out Keith's part of the mellow caribbean-ish bridge in Hey Negrita, btw?
Those chords are very different to what he normally plays in open G.
Those chords are very different to what he normally plays in open G.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: February 1, 2017 11:46
Quote
GasLightStreet
I'm well aware. I HATE Roman numerals.
So you're not gearing up for the MMXVII European tour? Fake fan!
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: February 1, 2017 12:00
Quote
MonkeyMan2000
Keith sometimes uses that A chord in a weird way. On How I Wish it should be A Minor too. And of course on Little T&A. But Little T&A sounds bad when you play an A Minor chord. I guess Keith doesn't worry about it too much and just plays what sounds right; you can't go wrong with power chords >
It's also partly a function of the fingering in open G.
Asside from the typical major/minor vagueness that typifies Blues & Rock music, full voicings of minor chords don't lend themselves to easy fingerings where the rythmic impact is most vital to the riff.
So an ambiguous 2 note "power chord" will be the natural option much of the time.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-01 12:03 by Spud.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
MonkeyMan2000
()
Date: February 1, 2017 14:32
Keith has found very beautiful chords in open g over the years. I really like the A Minor or B Minor chords where he lets the g string ring, like on live versions of Wild Horses or LSTNT.
Sorry to go off topic, but speaking of those minor chords, does anyone know the exact fingering for the suspended E minor chord of Struggle? Because you can still hear the deep E note as he pulls off the high E to D.
Sorry to go off topic, but speaking of those minor chords, does anyone know the exact fingering for the suspended E minor chord of Struggle? Because you can still hear the deep E note as he pulls off the high E to D.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 1, 2017 14:41
Quote
MonkeyMan2000
Keith has found very beautiful chords in open g over the years. I really like the A Minor or B Minor chords where he lets the g string ring, like on live versions of Wild Horses or LSTNT.
Sorry to go off topic, but speaking of those minor chords, does anyone know the exact fingering for the suspended E minor chord of Struggle? Because you can still hear the deep E note as he pulls off the high E to D.
You can add the Em-chord (same formation) to the mix (BTMMR among others).
I thought for many years that Struggle was in open G minor, but it is indeed in standard tuning. The E-formation is a pinky-free standard Em from the 7th fret (adding to the suspending chord with his pinky on the 11th fret, I believe).
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
MonkeyMan2000
()
Date: February 1, 2017 16:51
I knew he uses the Em chord in that same formation (I think he even goes up to F#m on Mixed Emotions), but I don't know how he then adds the pinky on the 11th fret, as that one is already used on the 10th fret of the G string.
Are you sure it's standard tuning? Because live he plays it in open G. I guess he just let's the G string ring or mutes it somehow and then the pinky can be used on the 11th fret of the B string.
Another observation when listening back to the song: Only Keith can use that sweeping on the muted strings so effortless to support the groove. On some days I just can't stop being amazed at Keith's sense of rhythm, even if that has been said a million times before.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-01 17:02 by MonkeyMan2000.
Are you sure it's standard tuning? Because live he plays it in open G. I guess he just let's the G string ring or mutes it somehow and then the pinky can be used on the 11th fret of the B string.
Another observation when listening back to the song: Only Keith can use that sweeping on the muted strings so effortless to support the groove. On some days I just can't stop being amazed at Keith's sense of rhythm, even if that has been said a million times before.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-01 17:02 by MonkeyMan2000.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 1, 2017 17:11
Quote
MonkeyMan2000
I knew he uses the Em chord in that same formation (I think he even goes up to F#m on Mixed Emotions), but I don't know how he then adds the pinky on the 11th fret, as that one is already used on the 10th fret of the G string.
Are you sure it's standard tuning? Because live he plays it in open G. I guess he just let's the G string ring or mutes it somehow and then the pinky can be used on the 11th fret of the B string.
My bad. He's playing it in open G, of course.
This was actually an old discussion where I remembered the outcome wrongly
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: February 1, 2017 17:49
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Exactly. And if he had strummed a major A chord before that Csus/C-chord change (making the C# audible), it would have altered the whole motif.
Nice that you bring this up. If you play the famous Hendrix "Purple Haze" E7#9 chord, transposed to A7#9, then you have both the C and C# involved, i. It works nice in HoF, in standard tuning of course, a bit Jazzy but also dangerous. As far as I know the Stones never used this most famous rock chord, btw.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-01 17:51 by TheflyingDutchman.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: February 1, 2017 17:58
Quote
MonkeyMan2000
I knew he uses the Em chord in that same formation (I think he even goes up to F#m on Mixed Emotions), but I don't know how he then adds the pinky on the 11th fret, as that one is already used on the 10th fret of the G string.
Are you sure it's standard tuning? Because live he plays it in open G. I guess he just let's the G string ring or mutes it somehow and then the pinky can be used on the 11th fret of the B string.
Another observation when listening back to the song: Only Keith can use that sweeping on the muted strings so effortless to support the groove. On some days I just can't stop being amazed at Keith's sense of rhythm, even if that has been said a million times before.
The Em of Struggle: open G - barre on the 9th fret with my middle finger + the G (2nd string 8th fret) with my index. Add sus, the A (2nd string 10th fret) with my ring finger. Sounds right.
C
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: February 1, 2017 18:17
This is the formation. Add your pinky on the 10th fret for the suspended chord in the riff.
Monkey Man: Keith doesn't use his pinky on the g-string. Whether he plays Am, Bm or Em, the g-string rings open.
He could do Cm that way in open G as well, but I've never heard him do that.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-01 18:18 by DandelionPowderman.
Monkey Man: Keith doesn't use his pinky on the g-string. Whether he plays Am, Bm or Em, the g-string rings open.
He could do Cm that way in open G as well, but I've never heard him do that.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-02-01 18:18 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
MonkeyMan2000
()
Date: February 1, 2017 19:00
Ok, great. Thank you guys for the help!
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
HonkeyTonkFlash
()
Date: February 2, 2017 01:40
Another thought on the A major vs. A minor...If he's not playing the third interval at all,let's compromise and say it's neither...It's A no 3rd. 
"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."
"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."
Re: Track Talk: Hand Of Fate
Posted by:
Spud
()
Date: February 2, 2017 09:52
Quote
MonkeyMan2000
... On some days I just can't stop being amazed at Keith's sense of rhythm, even if that has been said a million times before.
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