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dcba
Mathijs :
"And Keith's confirms what I have always believed -he wrote the bulk of Stones material."

"Shattered" offers an example of the way they work(ed?) : Mick once said Keith came up with the oepning 3-notes riff and the word "Shattered". Just that. Then it was up to Mick to find a chord progresion for all the parts of the tune (verse chorus bridge) and then write this sexy ode to NYC.

So who wrote the song? Jagger without a doubt!

Every chord (although not very many) in this songs is Keith all the way.

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mockingbird3
Keith's comments on the Performance film and Cammell show him at his most venal and corrupt.

That section was very interesting, but I interpreted it differently than you. I didn't think KR was trashing the film at all - he doesn't address the quality of the film or Jagger's (or Anita's) performance at all. There is a whole passage on his hatred of Donald Cammell, what an evil man that KR believed he was. He even admits, somewhat worryingly for Keith's karma, that he suggested to Cammell that he "take the gentleman's way out" and kill himself, which is what Cammell did a short time later.

Despite Keith writing that he's "not a jealous type of guy" it's pretty evident that he was enraged about the double betrayal of Anita's fling with Mick, and hated Cammell for setting it up, amongst other things.

I haven't finished the whole book yet, despite wasting a rare cool SoFla weekend reading indoors! From what I've read so far, Keef does not downplay Jagger's songwriting proficiency and musical contributions - quite the opposite. He allows that Jagger wrote "It's Only Rock 'n Roll" "Sympathy for the Devil" and "You Can't Always Get What You Want" on his own. Not too shabby, by anyone's standards. It was also interesting to hear about the recording of Brown Sugar in Muscle Shoals, how rapidly Jagger was able to compose the lyrics, going through sheets of a legal pad like he was taking speed dictation from the cosmos.

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The GR
Half way through and it reads like a transribed interview. Does the co-author actually know any thing about the Stones either?

The period 65-7 shoots by, one mention of Rock N Roll Circus, a page on Brians dismissal and death, a paragraph on Hyde Park. Remember being electrocuted in Sacremento or how about Shindig with Howlin Wolf?

There's the odd tidbit where there's a little depth but it's rare.

So far: Good but disappoiting.

We all must remember, some peoples memories are not the one's we have. The details one person remembers is as a direct result of their first hand experience, the significance of the experience to them and the state of mind they were in at the time.

The guys have played thousands of concerts and appeared on television countless times. When you factor in the drug use it can in fact become a blur. Keith has been part of at least 8 movies over the years right?

Can many remember the details of events that happened 40 years ago? About all that I remember of significance from 1967 is going to the Worlds Fair in Montreal, my sister vomiting in my dad's lap on one of the rides and riding a hydroplane while we were there. Granted, I was 6 years old but you get my point.

The really important thing to consider is the drug use. Alcohol is about the worst with heroin being a close second. Smoking Crack does not help either. All cause detrimental harm to the brain when abused (alcohol from documented brain cell damage, heroin and cocaine from the simple fact your senses are severely impaired). I'm rather surprised it has the level of detail it does have.

I too have a feeling some of the parts have been culled from interviews over the years (which is ok).

CBII



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-11-08 23:12 by CBII.

Thanks CBII. Very nice words.
I just finished chapter 9 and the more I read, the more I like the book.

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

I enjoy this book so much, what an extraordinary life he is living, when you compare his humble beginnings to where his love of music and his own contributions have taken him. Good for you Keith!

Very refreshing to read a couple of positive posts in this thread. Thanks.

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

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DandelionPowderman

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dcba
Mathijs :
"And Keith's confirms what I have always believed -he wrote the bulk of Stones material."

"Shattered" offers an example of the way they work(ed?) : Mick once said Keith came up with the oepning 3-notes riff and the word "Shattered". Just that. Then it was up to Mick to find a chord progresion for all the parts of the tune (verse chorus bridge) and then write this sexy ode to NYC.

So who wrote the song? Jagger without a doubt!

Every chord (although not very many) in this songs is Keith all the way.

For decades, people believed that about Brown Sugar, which was Mick. Regardless, the riff of the song is the foundation, but lyrics, verses, bridges, a hook etc...is the meat of the song. You could argue which role is more difficult, but I believe the latter is the more compositional. One is the idea, the other is the realization of it and the thing that makes us dance to it or sing along with it. That's why Keith's solo albums lack any real focus. He's a riff-master, Jagger is a songwriter.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-11-08 23:55 by stupidguy2.

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Palace Revolution 2000

Keith is a pirate, a rocker, drug user, road warrior; is he really supposed to make perfect sense at the end of the day? Have his stories tied up with neat ribbons and dots? This sounds to me more like people trying to shape him to work along their own organized life.

You're such a renegade!
Please, Keith is a pirate, drug user and road warrior living in a rarified world where people wipe his ass. That's not a pirate, that's a Rock Star who believes his own myth.
I'm enjoying the book, just as I have always enjoyed Keith's interviews and stories etc....I keep repeating this, but I really do love the guy, but his faults are also fully on display here.
Keith just can't seem to get the full impact of his drug addiction on those around him. He just doesn't get it. He acts like an unrepentent child who got caught without the self-reflection that often comes with recovery.
For example, when Keith speaks about Bianca, he is respectful and expresses admiration, but he still repeats that crap about her "society friends" and how they created a separation between him and Mick working together like they had before.
This is an example of Keith's self-absorbtion and others have mentioned it:
It never occurs to Keith that maybe, just maybe, his increasing reliance at the time on heroin - and and his surrounding himself with dealers and other assorted hangers-on and junkies or soon-to-be junkies - might have had an impact on his relationship with Jagger, who was not a heavy drug user. Drugs destroy families, relationships, his own son and daughter had to eventually be raised by their grandmother. Later on, he blames Jagger for not wanting to tour for Dirty Work during a time when Charlie was struggling with drugs.
I can't imagine what Jagger was dealing with and I have no doubt that he has a different perception of the "truth".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-11-09 00:42 by stupidguy2.

"during a time when Charlie was struggling with drugs"
and iirc there's strangely not a word about Charlie's addiction in Keith's book. Not important for you, Keith?

"I can't imagine what Jagger was dealing with and I have no doubt that he has a different perception of the "truth"."
I think Mick's been polishing his reply for the last 30 years. "Hey you know that's Keith". Understand : "one more example of Keith's bs".

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stupidguy2

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DandelionPowderman

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dcba
Mathijs :
"And Keith's confirms what I have always believed -he wrote the bulk of Stones material."

"Shattered" offers an example of the way they work(ed?) : Mick once said Keith came up with the oepning 3-notes riff and the word "Shattered". Just that. Then it was up to Mick to find a chord progresion for all the parts of the tune (verse chorus bridge) and then write this sexy ode to NYC.

So who wrote the song? Jagger without a doubt!

Every chord (although not very many) in this songs is Keith all the way.

For decades, people believed that about Brown Sugar, which was Mick. Regardless, the riff of the song is the foundation, but lyrics, verses, bridges, a hook etc...is the meat of the song. You could argue which role is more difficult, but I believe the latter is the more compositional. One is the idea, the other is the realization of it and the thing that makes us dance to it or sing along with it. That's why Keith's solo albums lack any real focus. He's a riff-master, Jagger is a songwriter.

The difference with Brown Sugar is within the way the chords Mick wrote are played, imo. Mick didn't write the riff as it was recorded, I believe. When we got the footage from 69 where he is fiddlin' about with the chord progression, it sounded very different.

Do we know if Mick or Keith wrote the parts on Shattered? No, we don't for sure. But something in that bridge is very, very similar to the bridge in Before They Make Me Run... Hm, I could be wrong, but I guess we'll never know.

Keith's not a songwriter?? Listen to Make No Mistake. No focus? You gotta be kidding. However, I know what you mean with the rockers. They could use a little more melody treatment time and again. Although songs like You Don't Move Me, Struggle and Wicked As It Seems are both focused, well-written and well-performed, imo.

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The GR
Half way through and it reads like a transribed interview. Does the co-author actually know any thing about the Stones either?

The period 65-7 shoots by, one mention of Rock N Roll Circus, a page on Brians dismissal and death, a paragraph on Hyde Park. Remember being electrocuted in Sacremento or how about Shindig with Howlin Wolf?

There's the odd tidbit where there's a little depth but it's rare.

So far: Good but disappoiting.

Well it is not really a book about the Rolling Stones.

Having a partner to write the book I would have assumed that some one might have researched and used a few reminders.

Yes the book isn't about the Rolling Stones but Freddie Sessler gets a couple of pages of biography. And Grams death is dealt with differently to Brians.

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The GR
Freddie Sessler gets a couple of pages of biography.

Btw does anyone know if Seesler self-bio has ben published or just remains a manuscript?

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DandelionPowderman

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stupidguy2

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DandelionPowderman

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dcba
Mathijs :
"And Keith's confirms what I have always believed -he wrote the bulk of Stones material."

"Shattered" offers an example of the way they work(ed?) : Mick once said Keith came up with the oepning 3-notes riff and the word "Shattered". Just that. Then it was up to Mick to find a chord progresion for all the parts of the tune (verse chorus bridge) and then write this sexy ode to NYC.

So who wrote the song? Jagger without a doubt!

Every chord (although not very many) in this songs is Keith all the way.

For decades, people believed that about Brown Sugar, which was Mick. Regardless, the riff of the song is the foundation, but lyrics, verses, bridges, a hook etc...is the meat of the song. You could argue which role is more difficult, but I believe the latter is the more compositional. One is the idea, the other is the realization of it and the thing that makes us dance to it or sing along with it. That's why Keith's solo albums lack any real focus. He's a riff-master, Jagger is a songwriter.

The difference with Brown Sugar is within the way the chords Mick wrote are played, imo. Mick didn't write the riff as it was recorded, I believe. When we got the footage from 69 where he is fiddlin' about with the chord progression, it sounded very different.

Do we know if Mick or Keith wrote the parts on Shattered? No, we don't for sure. But something in that bridge is very, very similar to the bridge in Before They Make Me Run... Hm, I could be wrong, but I guess we'll never know.

Keith's not a songwriter?? Listen to Make No Mistake. No focus? You gotta be kidding. However, I know what you mean with the rockers. They could use a little more melody treatment time and again. Although songs like You Don't Move Me, Struggle and Wicked As It Seems are both focused, well-written and well-performed, imo.

Make no mistake is Keith's best solo song. Its a great song - i wish the Stones would play it live, just as I wish the Stones would play a few Jagger solo songs.
I think Mick and Keith feed off each other, as musicians and songwriting. But they have individual strengths and Mick is the stronger song writer.

As I recall Mick said that Shattered is more a "Keith/Ronnie song." On the other hand as I recall Keith said his Contribution to the song Shattered was the riff that dominates the song and the phrase "Shidoobee."

As far as who is the stronger songwriter I'll say this, I much prefer Keith's solo material to Mick's and I am much more interested in hearing new Keith Songs than new Mick songs.

I finished the book last night and one of my surprises was how Keith was arguably kinder to Tony Sanchez than he was to Mick, Bill or Brian! Last time Keith saw Tony he caressed Tony's face menacingly with a handgun, so furious was he about Tony's book.

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Slimharpo


As far as who is the stronger songwriter I'll say this, I much prefer Keith's solo material to Mick's and I am much more interested in hearing new Keith Songs than new Mick songs.

Yes, but Unlike Keith, Mick never takes credit for anything.

And Slim,
Out of Focus,
Blind Leading the Blind
Too Far Gone
Don't Call Me Up (acoustic version)
Wandering SPirit
These are better than anything from Talk is Cheap or Main Offender.

Love Keith, but Make No Mistake is the one solo song that stands up on its own.

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Title5Take1
I finished the book last night and one of my surprises was how Keith was arguably kinder to Tony Sanchez than he was to Mick, Bill or Brian! Last time Keith saw Tony he caressed Tony's face menacingly with a handgun, so furious was he about Tony's book.

he must have been high then

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Slimharpo
As I recall Mick said that Shattered is more a "Keith/Ronnie song." On the other hand as I recall Keith said his Contribution to the song Shattered was the riff that dominates the song and the phrase "Shidoobee."

As far as who is the stronger songwriter I'll say this, I much prefer Keith's solo material to Mick's and I am much more interested in hearing new Keith Songs than new Mick songs.

As with most Stones songs it is Keith who has the main chords or riff, a melody and a lyric phrase, and then Jagger finishes the song with great lyrics and vocal melody. So, Jagger needs Richards to come up with great ideas, and Richards needs Jagger to turn his ideas into great songs. They acknowledge each others role, and that's why to date they share the credits 50/50.

About Brown Sugar, the '69 clip shows Jagger playing the chord sequence and singing the first line of the first verse. This means that basically he has written the entire song, and all Keith did was to rock it up and make it a Stones song, with a rythm guitar part that only he can (or could) play.

Mathijs

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stupidguy2

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DandelionPowderman

Quote
stupidguy2

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DandelionPowderman

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dcba
Mathijs :
"And Keith's confirms what I have always believed -he wrote the bulk of Stones material."

"Shattered" offers an example of the way they work(ed?) : Mick once said Keith came up with the oepning 3-notes riff and the word "Shattered". Just that. Then it was up to Mick to find a chord progresion for all the parts of the tune (verse chorus bridge) and then write this sexy ode to NYC.

So who wrote the song? Jagger without a doubt!

Every chord (although not very many) in this songs is Keith all the way.

For decades, people believed that about Brown Sugar, which was Mick. Regardless, the riff of the song is the foundation, but lyrics, verses, bridges, a hook etc...is the meat of the song. You could argue which role is more difficult, but I believe the latter is the more compositional. One is the idea, the other is the realization of it and the thing that makes us dance to it or sing along with it. That's why Keith's solo albums lack any real focus. He's a riff-master, Jagger is a songwriter.

The difference with Brown Sugar is within the way the chords Mick wrote are played, imo. Mick didn't write the riff as it was recorded, I believe. When we got the footage from 69 where he is fiddlin' about with the chord progression, it sounded very different.

Do we know if Mick or Keith wrote the parts on Shattered? No, we don't for sure. But something in that bridge is very, very similar to the bridge in Before They Make Me Run... Hm, I could be wrong, but I guess we'll never know.

Keith's not a songwriter?? Listen to Make No Mistake. No focus? You gotta be kidding. However, I know what you mean with the rockers. They could use a little more melody treatment time and again. Although songs like You Don't Move Me, Struggle and Wicked As It Seems are both focused, well-written and well-performed, imo.

Make no mistake is Keith's best solo song. Its a great song - i wish the Stones would play it live, just as I wish the Stones would play a few Jagger solo songs.
I think Mick and Keith feed off each other, as musicians and songwriting. But they have individual strengths and Mick is the stronger song writer.

Yeah, Mick may be the stronger songshaper, but I think their solo albums speak for themselves, Keith is also a fantastic songwriter. Ruby Tuesday anyone? Angie? As someone pointed out in another thread, keith has music for blood

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stupidguy2

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Slimharpo


As far as who is the stronger songwriter I'll say this, I much prefer Keith's solo material to Mick's and I am much more interested in hearing new Keith Songs than new Mick songs.

Yes, but Unlike Keith, Mick never takes credit for anything.

And Slim,
Out of Focus,
Blind Leading the Blind
Too Far Gone
Don't Call Me Up (acoustic version)
Wandering SPirit
These are better than anything from Talk is Cheap or Main Offender.

Love Keith, but Make No Mistake is the one solo song that stands up on its own.

Err, You Don't Move Me, Hate It When You Leave, Locked Away, Big Enough, Struggle, Wicked As It Seems, Whip It Up and Eileen all stand pretty good up on their own, imo.

I've posted it in another treat
[www.iorr.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-11-10 13:15 by proudmary.

All the songs on Talk is Cheap stand up. Also most songs on Main Offender hold up. Even though Talk is Cheap has more good songs, I actually prefer Main Offener as a whole piece.

The loss of a Stones vibe, and calculating, rehearsed singing Mick has been bringing since the 1980's has left more than a few people hoping Keith and Ronnie would write the songs and maybe someone like Chris Robinson or Karl Wallinger (Ship of Fools) could sing.

I'm a huge fan of Mick through the 1970's, but agree that he lost sight of his appeal, his strengths and what people dig about the Stones. When Street of Love plays on a ABB, it really hurts the feel of the album and is a terrible song.

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Mathijs
About Brown Sugar, the '69 clip shows Jagger playing the chord sequence and singing the first line of the first verse. This means that basically he has written the entire song, and all Keith did was to rock it up and make it a Stones song, with a rythm guitar part that only he can (or could) play.

Mathijs

The '69 footage - where can one see it, is it in the Gimme Shelter film of Altamont? Thank you.

Why do we argue about who the better songwriter is? I think we can not use solo songs here to prove who the better writer is. Mick tried something new, he did not want to write Stones-style, so we can´t compare them with what he wrote for the Stones. Of course he came up with many song-ideas for the band as well as many complete written songs. He wrote Brown Sugar and Sympathy, why would he stop after that? He once said that he writes songs all the time, so he is not doing nothing and just waits for Keith´s call to finish his songs.
The Rolling Stones have two great songwriters and no one is superior to the other, in my opinion.

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DandelionPowderman

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stupidguy2

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DandelionPowderman

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stupidguy2

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DandelionPowderman

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dcba
Mathijs :
"And Keith's confirms what I have always believed -he wrote the bulk of Stones material."

"Shattered" offers an example of the way they work(ed?) : Mick once said Keith came up with the oepning 3-notes riff and the word "Shattered". Just that. Then it was up to Mick to find a chord progresion for all the parts of the tune (verse chorus bridge) and then write this sexy ode to NYC.

So who wrote the song? Jagger without a doubt!

Every chord (although not very many) in this songs is Keith all the way.

For decades, people believed that about Brown Sugar, which was Mick. Regardless, the riff of the song is the foundation, but lyrics, verses, bridges, a hook etc...is the meat of the song. You could argue which role is more difficult, but I believe the latter is the more compositional. One is the idea, the other is the realization of it and the thing that makes us dance to it or sing along with it. That's why Keith's solo albums lack any real focus. He's a riff-master, Jagger is a songwriter.

The difference with Brown Sugar is within the way the chords Mick wrote are played, imo. Mick didn't write the riff as it was recorded, I believe. When we got the footage from 69 where he is fiddlin' about with the chord progression, it sounded very different.

Do we know if Mick or Keith wrote the parts on Shattered? No, we don't for sure. But something in that bridge is very, very similar to the bridge in Before They Make Me Run... Hm, I could be wrong, but I guess we'll never know.

Keith's not a songwriter?? Listen to Make No Mistake. No focus? You gotta be kidding. However, I know what you mean with the rockers. They could use a little more melody treatment time and again. Although songs like You Don't Move Me, Struggle and Wicked As It Seems are both focused, well-written and well-performed, imo.

Make no mistake is Keith's best solo song. Its a great song - i wish the Stones would play it live, just as I wish the Stones would play a few Jagger solo songs.
I think Mick and Keith feed off each other, as musicians and songwriting. But they have individual strengths and Mick is the stronger song writer.

Yeah, Mick may be the stronger songshaper, but I think their solo albums speak for themselves, Keith is also a fantastic songwriter. Ruby Tuesday anyone? Angie? As someone pointed out in another thread, keith has music for blood

Keith definitely had music in his blood - ABSOLUTELY NO ARGUMENT about that. It's just that his blood since 1972 is filled with more junk than anything else. Keith Richards' music since 1972 is analogous - some flourishes but mostly junk

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elunsi
The Rolling Stones have two great songwriters

Absolutely. No bout adoubt it

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

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Slimharpo
All the songs on Talk is Cheap stand up. Also most songs on Main Offender hold up. Even though Talk is Cheap has more good songs, I actually prefer Main Offener as a whole piece.

The loss of a Stones vibe, and calculating, rehearsed singing Mick has been bringing since the 1980's has left more than a few people hoping Keith and Ronnie would write the songs and maybe someone like Chris Robinson or Karl Wallinger (Ship of Fools) could sing.

I'm a huge fan of Mick through the 1970's, but agree that he lost sight of his appeal, his strengths and what people dig about the Stones. When Street of Love plays on a ABB, it really hurts the feel of the album and is a terrible song.

Subjective.
But Keith's solo albums tend to blur together because they all sound like the same riff. Not a knock, I loved Talk is Cheap - Make No Mistake, Take it So Hard, How I Wish etc.....
But Jagger's best solo stuff covered more ground - blues, gospel, soul, straight up rock and roll, acoustic etc....As elunsi pointed out, Jagger was trying to do something different, whereas Keith was just doing the Stones as we knew them, which is probably why many Stones fans prefer that stuff - it was comfortable Stones, just like you like them, like an old pair of jeans. Jagger tried to step out of that comfort zone, with often disastrous results (She's the Boss, Primitive Cool etc...)
Having said that, I will agree with you on your last point, It is a subject that has divided fans somewhat: Jagger seemed to be trying too hard in the 80s, trying to be current and relevant and it sacrificed the integrity of his true gifts. Jagger lost his cred the day She's the Boss was released. I will always maintain that Mick seemed lost during that period, didn't seem to have a clue as an artist or, from what others say about this period, his identity, and he was trying to be the Rock Star, when Mick Jagger would have been enough. The 80s were a horrible period for alot of aging rockers and Mick seemed to struggle with his own identity, making crap like Running Out of Luck (yikes) etc...
I think Keith is unfair in many respects to Mick, but I do agree with his assesment on Jagger in the 80s.
So you can argue that Jagger's overall songwriting strengths floundered in that period, while Keith remained true to the Stones' roots. But that's another topic and I think has to do with Jagger's personal struggles with aging, not talent.

The book is alive and real when he is talking about the early days with the Stones, learning the blues, the first tours, etc. Wonderful. After that it descends into a litany of drug tales, grudges, score-settling and macho tough-guy talk. That is, once he became "Keith Richards" (or "Keith Richard") the rock star, is when all these other layers got added on. I am thankful we have his entertaining (and even inspiring) account of the early days. The rest of it I could have gotten from interviews or the Spanish Tony book.

Finished the book... I think he wrote a good book. Although I am surprised Keith didn't write a few lines on Bill German... the Peter Tosh incident... More on Tony Sanchez... he didn't really talk much about Mick Taylor... nevertheless a lot of stuff I didn't know or know for sure.