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I agree, though I think the original composers should at least be acknowledged. If anything, just to emphasize the fact that the group covering the record in question, didn't actually write it themselves.
Assuming anyone knows who the original composer is. Usually it is just a folk tune, traditional, negro spiritual, etc.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-02 15:30 by mitchflorida.
I didn't mention copyright, merely pointing out they stole too.
He also nicked a Killing Joke riff for Come As You Are.
Not sure about song writing part, but they'd definitely get money from the arranging part and I assume payments for when their performance/recording is played on radio etc.
and the riff to smells like teen spirit is the chorus riff to more than a feeling
But I remember an interview with Keith at the time and he was saying something to the effect that yes it is flattering to influence younger artists, but by the same token it is bs to steal my songs,you gotta pay up. It sounded to me like he was fine with the lawsuit.
Actually, Keith said quite the opposite. That it was basically "lawyer sh*t" and he had nothing to do with it, which is true. Alan Klein was very tight-fisted and fights every little thing regarding the Stones, as most people know here.
Keith said he loved the Verve's version, and hoped that they would write another smash hit, bigger than Bittersweet Symphony. Unfortunately, they never did write a big song and they eventually broke up. The Stones never profited from Bittersweet Symphony, ABKCO cleaned up though.
You are probably right about that. The only way to see who was right and wrong was to take it to court, and I guess the Verve realized they didn't have a leg to stand on . . or just didn't want to litigate it. They caved in completely. They proved Keith's point though, because The Verve was a one-hit wonder, not a song writing machine like Jagger-Richards.
You are quite a clueless fellow!
Yah clearly don't know much about the Verve.
This is what happened to the original Animals and House Of The Rising Son. So the story goes Alan Price was credited with the arrangement (as they couldn't get all five names on a 45) and then ended up getting most of the royalties, if not all. The rest of the band were quite miffed about that,
Wasn't Mick dragged into Court in Yonkers, NY over "Just Another Night"? I think he won that case.
Funny! Never knew this existed!
Oh, and BTW, Mary Ann was hotter!
And from what I have read previously it sounds like Spirit/Randy California should have sued also!
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
Big Al
()
Date: July 2, 2010 15:15
Quote
mitchflorida
There is nothing wrong with going into the Public Domain. The Public Domain is by definition open to the public.
I agree, though I think the original composers should at least be acknowledged. If anything, just to emphasize the fact that the group covering the record in question, didn't actually write it themselves.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
mitchflorida
()
Date: July 2, 2010 15:29
Quote
Big AlQuote
mitchflorida
There is nothing wrong with going into the Public Domain. The Public Domain is by definition open to the public.
I agree, though I think the original composers should at least be acknowledged. If anything, just to emphasize the fact that the group covering the record in question, didn't actually write it themselves.
Assuming anyone knows who the original composer is. Usually it is just a folk tune, traditional, negro spiritual, etc.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-02 15:30 by mitchflorida.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
scottkeef
()
Date: July 2, 2010 16:46
Yeah, I wonder how many artists have claim title to a version of Gypsy Davey, Blackjack Davy, Blackjack David.......
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 2, 2010 17:28
Quote
keefriffhard4lifeQuote
His Majesty
Lennon nicked from Chuck Berry for Come Together.
The stones nicked the last time vocal refrain(Brian made up the lead guitar motif!) and also Jimmy Page's guitar solo note for note for Heart of Stone.
This kinda borrowing is endless.
a guitar solo can not be copyrighted. "beat it" does not list EVH as a songwriter.
I didn't mention copyright, merely pointing out they stole too.
Question on copyright laws
Posted by:
mckalk
()
Date: July 2, 2010 17:32
Question on copyright laws... When an artist puts their name to a traditional song because of their arrangement do they actually start getting a piece of the songwriting royalties? I would think they would need to clear something with the original publishers?
Also, just my opinion, but with Dazed and Confused, how can it be viewed as anything but a straight steal by Page of another mans song? I hope Jake Holmes kept the letters he sent and other documentation, so that he can reclaim some of what he is due.
Also, just my opinion, but with Dazed and Confused, how can it be viewed as anything but a straight steal by Page of another mans song? I hope Jake Holmes kept the letters he sent and other documentation, so that he can reclaim some of what he is due.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 2, 2010 17:34
Quote
Child Of Clay
and no one's even mentioned Noel Gallagher yet! Or Bob Dylan, who's dipped into public domain every now and then, Modern Times album being a prime example. After reading "Revolution In The Head" I'm aware of the Beatles often being "influenced" by other hitmakers. And Marc Bolan ripped off Howlin Wolf for "Jeepster", Kurt Cobain stole a hook from the Ramones to "Heart-Shaped Box", Johnny Thunders stole from the Yardbirds... It's just unfair to single out Led Zeppelin when it comes to stealing. Of course they were arrogant about it, and perhaps they deserve the flak, I don't know.
He also nicked a Killing Joke riff for Come As You Are.
Re: Question on copyright laws
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 2, 2010 17:40
Quote
mckalk
Question on copyright laws... When an artist puts their name to a traditional song because of their arrangement do they actually start getting a piece of the songwriting royalties? I would think they would need to clear something with the original publishers?
Not sure about song writing part, but they'd definitely get money from the arranging part and I assume payments for when their performance/recording is played on radio etc.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
mitchflorida
()
Date: July 2, 2010 18:09
Jake Holmes has had several major advertising jingle hits, that everyone has heard but never connected to him. Besides Dazed and Confused, Holmes also wrote lots of advertising jingles:
the most famous ones were probably "Be All You Can Be" for the Army and "Raise Your Hand If You're Sure" for Sure deodorant and the "Be A Pepper" for Dr. Pepper. Those are my hits. (laughs)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-02 18:09 by mitchflorida.
the most famous ones were probably "Be All You Can Be" for the Army and "Raise Your Hand If You're Sure" for Sure deodorant and the "Be A Pepper" for Dr. Pepper. Those are my hits. (laughs)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-02 18:09 by mitchflorida.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
bolexman
()
Date: July 2, 2010 18:58
It should be noted at this point in the thread that Waylon Jennings has a funny song called 'Don't Cuss The Fiddle' with the great line "We're in this gig together so let's settle down and steal each other's song".
Songs have always influenced each other, thats the nature of music in my opinion. But in the big bad land of song publishing, and royalty payments, most people tend to get away with whatever they can, it seems. An amusing story related to this issue is Bob Dylan's "Fourth Time Around"... (stop me if you have heard this one before)... The story goes that John Lennon was paranoid that Dylan's "Fourth Time Around" was a parody of his own "Norweigan Wood", sharing similar melody and chords. "Norweigan Wood", of course, being a song that displayed similarities to Dylan's own style. To my ear it reminds the listener of Dylan's great tune "Don't Think Twice It's All Right". Funnily enough, "Don't Think..." was itself a rip-off of an old song titled "Who's Goin' to Buy You Ribbons When I'm Gone?". Hence the title "Fourth Time Around"!
Who's Goin' to Buy You Ribbons When I'm Gone
---became--->
Don't Think Twice It's All Right
---became--->
Norweigan Wood
---became--->
Fourth Time Around
I'd put this into a pie chart but its late and I'm tired
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-02 19:00 by bolexman.
Songs have always influenced each other, thats the nature of music in my opinion. But in the big bad land of song publishing, and royalty payments, most people tend to get away with whatever they can, it seems. An amusing story related to this issue is Bob Dylan's "Fourth Time Around"... (stop me if you have heard this one before)... The story goes that John Lennon was paranoid that Dylan's "Fourth Time Around" was a parody of his own "Norweigan Wood", sharing similar melody and chords. "Norweigan Wood", of course, being a song that displayed similarities to Dylan's own style. To my ear it reminds the listener of Dylan's great tune "Don't Think Twice It's All Right". Funnily enough, "Don't Think..." was itself a rip-off of an old song titled "Who's Goin' to Buy You Ribbons When I'm Gone?". Hence the title "Fourth Time Around"!
Who's Goin' to Buy You Ribbons When I'm Gone
---became--->
Don't Think Twice It's All Right
---became--->
Norweigan Wood
---became--->
Fourth Time Around
I'd put this into a pie chart but its late and I'm tired
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-02 19:00 by bolexman.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
scottkeef
()
Date: July 2, 2010 19:02
Influence is one thing but (and as much as I love Zep-dont misunderstand) when a band hardly bothers to change more than a word or two--well!!!!!
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
keefriffhard4life
()
Date: July 2, 2010 21:56
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Child Of Clay
and no one's even mentioned Noel Gallagher yet! Or Bob Dylan, who's dipped into public domain every now and then, Modern Times album being a prime example. After reading "Revolution In The Head" I'm aware of the Beatles often being "influenced" by other hitmakers. And Marc Bolan ripped off Howlin Wolf for "Jeepster", Kurt Cobain stole a hook from the Ramones to "Heart-Shaped Box", Johnny Thunders stole from the Yardbirds... It's just unfair to single out Led Zeppelin when it comes to stealing. Of course they were arrogant about it, and perhaps they deserve the flak, I don't know.
He also nicked a Killing Joke riff for Come As You Are.
and the riff to smells like teen spirit is the chorus riff to more than a feeling
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
KeefintheNight82
()
Date: July 3, 2010 01:20
Zepp suck.
Most over-rated band ever.
Most over-rated band ever.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
The GR
()
Date: July 3, 2010 13:24
At the end of Bridges To Babylon shows Bittersweet Symphony was played over the PA as you left the arena. This meant that The Verve got paid for it. The Stones wanted to distance themselves from ABKCO for suing.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
mckalk
()
Date: July 3, 2010 18:23
Quote
The GR
At the end of Bridges To Babylon shows Bittersweet Symphony was played over the PA as you left the arena. This meant that The Verve got paid for it. The Stones wanted to distance themselves from ABKCO for suing.
But I remember an interview with Keith at the time and he was saying something to the effect that yes it is flattering to influence younger artists, but by the same token it is bs to steal my songs,you gotta pay up. It sounded to me like he was fine with the lawsuit.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
mitchflorida
()
Date: July 3, 2010 18:31
Quote
mckalkQuote
The GR
At the end of Bridges To Babylon shows Bittersweet Symphony was played over the PA as you left the arena. This meant that The Verve got paid for it. The Stones wanted to distance themselves from ABKCO for suing.
But I remember an interview with Keith at the time and he was saying something to the effect that yes it is flattering to influence younger artists, but by the same token it is bs to steal my songs,you gotta pay up. It sounded to me like he was fine with the lawsuit.
Actually, Keith said quite the opposite. That it was basically "lawyer sh*t" and he had nothing to do with it, which is true. Alan Klein was very tight-fisted and fights every little thing regarding the Stones, as most people know here.
Keith said he loved the Verve's version, and hoped that they would write another smash hit, bigger than Bittersweet Symphony. Unfortunately, they never did write a big song and they eventually broke up. The Stones never profited from Bittersweet Symphony, ABKCO cleaned up though.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
mckalk
()
Date: July 3, 2010 21:30
I wish I could find the interview, definitely not love and kisses for the Verve guy. Who knows Keith as been know to change his opinion.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
mitchflorida
()
Date: July 3, 2010 21:39
Quote
mckalk
I wish I could find the interview, definitely not love and kisses for the Verve guy. Who knows Keith as been know to change his opinion.
You are probably right about that. The only way to see who was right and wrong was to take it to court, and I guess the Verve realized they didn't have a leg to stand on . . or just didn't want to litigate it. They caved in completely. They proved Keith's point though, because The Verve was a one-hit wonder, not a song writing machine like Jagger-Richards.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
skipstone
()
Date: July 3, 2010 22:00
What Mick and Keith did for Love In Vain was, as Keith said, just setting it to a more traditional blues structure. So they did arrange it by re-arranging it. They didn't change the writing per se and they even left some things out in terms of HOW Robert Johnson did it. Where his is fast, the Stones made it really slow.
Jimmy Page? Flat out thievery!
Jimmy Page? Flat out thievery!
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 4, 2010 01:18
Quote
mitchflorida
The Verve was a one-hit wonder, not a song writing machine like Jagger-Richards.
You are quite a clueless fellow!
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
mitchflorida
()
Date: July 4, 2010 01:51
Quote
His MajestyQuote
mitchflorida
The Verve was a one-hit wonder, not a song writing machine like Jagger-Richards.
You are quite a clueless fellow![/quote
Not as clueless as you are.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 4, 2010 02:19
Quote
mitchflorida
Not as clueless as you are.
Yah clearly don't know much about the Verve.
Re: Question on copyright laws
Posted by:
tomk
()
Date: July 4, 2010 02:46
Quote
His MajestyQuote
mckalk
Question on copyright laws... When an artist puts their name to a traditional song because of their arrangement do they actually start getting a piece of the songwriting royalties? I would think they would need to clear something with the original publishers?
Not sure about song writing part, but they'd definitely get money from the arranging part and I assume payments for when their performance/recording is played on radio etc.
This is what happened to the original Animals and House Of The Rising Son. So the story goes Alan Price was credited with the arrangement (as they couldn't get all five names on a 45) and then ended up getting most of the royalties, if not all. The rest of the band were quite miffed about that,
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
Sam Spade
()
Date: July 4, 2010 02:46
Quote
mitchflorida
Have the Stones ever been charged with stealing a song or not paying royalties?
Wasn't Mick dragged into Court in Yonkers, NY over "Just Another Night"? I think he won that case.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
The GR
()
Date: July 5, 2010 12:29
The Verve were not one hit wonders !
Urban Hymns and Northern Soul are both excellant.
BTW keyboard player on Richard Ashcrofts first album? Chuck Leavell.
Urban Hymns and Northern Soul are both excellant.
BTW keyboard player on Richard Ashcrofts first album? Chuck Leavell.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
Pietro
()
Date: July 7, 2010 02:08
Americans over 35 will remember the TV show "Gilligan's Island." In 1974, a group called Little Roger and the Goosebumps took the words of TV show and put it to the tune of "Stairway to Heaven." Led Zepplin sued immediately and had the record suppressed.
Kind of ironic, in light of what rip-off artists Led Zepplin was.
Kind of ironic, in light of what rip-off artists Led Zepplin was.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
Edith Grove
()
Date: July 7, 2010 03:36
Quote
Pietro
Americans over 35 will remember the TV show "Gilligan's Island." In 1974, a group called Little Roger and the Goosebumps took the words of TV show and put it to the tune of "Stairway to Heaven." Led Zepplin sued immediately and had the record suppressed.
Kind of ironic, in light of what rip-off artists Led Zepplin was.
Funny! Never knew this existed!
Oh, and BTW, Mary Ann was hotter!
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
mckalk
()
Date: July 7, 2010 06:23
Quote
Edith GroveQuote
Pietro
Americans over 35 will remember the TV show "Gilligan's Island." In 1974, a group called Little Roger and the Goosebumps took the words of TV show and put it to the tune of "Stairway to Heaven." Led Zepplin sued immediately and had the record suppressed.
Kind of ironic, in light of what rip-off artists Led Zepplin was.
Funny! Never knew this existed!
Oh, and BTW, Mary Ann was hotter!
And from what I have read previously it sounds like Spirit/Randy California should have sued also!
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
stones78
()
Date: July 7, 2010 06:51
Also Jimmy Page took Bert Jansch's arrangement of the traditional "Black Mountain Side" note for note and credited to himself on Led Zeppelin I.
He has admitted in interviews something like "I wasn't totally original on that"...
While the credits should say "Traditional, arranged by Jansch / Page (since I guess he came up with the percussion arrangement) it just says Page.
He has admitted in interviews something like "I wasn't totally original on that"...
While the credits should say "Traditional, arranged by Jansch / Page (since I guess he came up with the percussion arrangement) it just says Page.
Re: OT: A ‘Dazed And Confused’ Lawsuit
Posted by:
mckalk
()
Date: July 7, 2010 07:18
Good lord, maybe this thread should be approached from the opposite direction....what Led Zeppelin songs are truly their own??? Maybe we will find out next that Robert Plant nicked Kashmir from some Berber nomad who lived outside of Marrakesh!
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